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When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 4

Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 4

Unread postby Ibon » Tue 05 Feb 2019, 02:07:22

Newfie wrote:The “noise” is ther, we just tune it out.

I would think the decline in non human related biomass and aquatic biomass and disruption of the circulatory systems would qualify.


The only relevant biomass are those chickens that one day come home to roost.
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 4

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 05 Feb 2019, 07:42:13

One only has to awaken to hear that rooster crowing.
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 4

Unread postby EdwinSm » Wed 06 Feb 2019, 03:35:59

KaiserJeep wrote:... Now all he has to do is admit that the dieoff started around 1800 when the human population exceeded the capacity of the natural healing processes. It has been slowly gaining momentum ever since, as our numbers grew.


Keeping the subject to just mass dieoff of humans....I would say I disagree (mainly about terminology).
* We humans are in 'Overshoot'
* overshoot tends to lead to dieoff (ie a rapid fall in population)
* but we are not yet in the dieoff, as world population is still rising.

However, looking at collapses in societies in the past (Easter Island, Mayan culture) it seems that many of the collapses took decades (in the hundreds of years) to play out, so while living with those time frames it might be more of a die-back rather than a die-off.

Like with the date of peak oil (there will still be plenty of oil the day/week/month/year after the peak), I feel that the date of peak population will not matter much, except as a stark psychological warning that may trigger unexpected (and destructive) behaviours, so providing a negative feedback.
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 4

Unread postby dohboi » Wed 06 Feb 2019, 06:21:30

Indeed, the population growth rate, after going mostly down for the last couple decades, has now stabilized at 1.06 % since 2014.

https://www.indexmundi.com/g/g.aspx?v=24&c=xx&l=en

https://www.cia.gov/library/publication ... os/xx.html

As baby boomers age, the death rate is projected to go up at some point in the near future, but for that to result in a reduced growth rate will require the birth rate to either stabilize or continue its long term decline.

Of course, peak population will not be reached until the growth rate has hit zero. Anything above zero is essentially exponential growth, though the doubling time is now ~70 years rather than the ~35 year doubling period seen in the late '60 when the growth rate was over 2%. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population

Of course, factors besides mere demographics are likely to increase the death rates in the near future as well...
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 4

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 06 Feb 2019, 07:53:58

One could argue that Western Civilization populations have hit peak population and are in die off. Other cultures are still growing.
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 4

Unread postby dohboi » Wed 06 Feb 2019, 08:42:49

The key cultural poisons developed in Western culture have metastacized into global industrial capitalism, which is killing the planet.

Here's one more species that is feeling the heat:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... mots-death


Netherlands puzzles over death of estimated 20,000 guillemots


Scientists yet to figure out how the birds died after hundreds wash up on Dutch coast
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 4

Unread postby Cog » Wed 06 Feb 2019, 09:40:31

Darn those pesky capitalists for creating modern civilization and giving us the best standard of living the world has ever known.
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 4

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 06 Feb 2019, 10:55:37

Well yes it has, of course it’s screwd our kids in the process.
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 4

Unread postby asg70 » Wed 06 Feb 2019, 12:28:13

Newfie wrote:One could argue that Western Civilization populations have hit peak population and are in die off. Other cultures are still growing.


Demographic shift != "die off".
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 4

Unread postby Vermillion2 » Wed 06 Feb 2019, 21:01:47

Cog wrote:Darn those pesky capitalists for creating modern civilization and giving us the best standard of living the world has ever known.


In what alternate universe is this a good thing? Most of the people I encounter ought to be confined to a wire cage and kept on a diet of biscuits and creek water. High standard of living for the moronic west is not in any way a counterbalance to global ecological damage, and I actually resent the fact that so many people live comfortably. I want them living in constant fear and ignorance because I thrive on human misery and devastation. This has nothing to do with race and is aimed primarily at middle/upper middle class people.
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 4

Unread postby dohboi » Wed 06 Feb 2019, 21:58:34

Nicely put, V2! And welcome to the fray!
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 4

Unread postby Cog » Thu 07 Feb 2019, 05:34:53

Thanks for confirming yet again V2, that enviro-wackos are a death cult. Yes, I'm sure locking people up in cages is the least you would do to others, if you were ever given power.
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 4

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 07 Feb 2019, 06:33:08

V2 and Dohboi are what they are, which is not environmentalist. They are somehow disembodied from nature.

Make no mistakes that I strongly favor the reduction of human population, we have become a cancer upon the earth.

Make no mistakes that I strongly wish to accomplish the above with the minimum of human misery while expanding our intellect.

As an environmentalist and a humanist I find V2’2 and Dohnoi’s comments repugnant.
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 4

Unread postby Ibon » Thu 07 Feb 2019, 06:54:26

Beef cattle in the feedlots out west are kept in exactly the same conditions as V2 wants to do to humans. So are chickens and swine. And farm fed salmon.

Newfie and Cog, we do unto others......... you know the saying.

A little moral consistency would be nice. Like George Carlin once said..... " How come when its a human its an abortion but when it is a chicken its an omelet? Chicken are good people"
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 4

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 07 Feb 2019, 07:05:41

Ibon,

We should not do the feed lot stuff either, as a minimum there are some things I just don’t eat. But then also look at the fish situation where we have nearly scraped the seas clean. The reason we do this is because we are trying to float a bloated population.

. I want them living in constant fear and ignorance because I thrive on human misery and devastation.


If there is anything we need less of it’s ignorance. That’s what got us into this mess. Cancer has low intelligence, and we are acting like cancer. We may well collapse in our ignorance, and if we do not make ourselves extinct we will arise to do the same stupid stuff again. So those are you three choices: extinction, reputation, or intellectual and emotional growth.
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 4

Unread postby Ibon » Thu 07 Feb 2019, 08:14:56

There is that wonderful wise saying around deception.

Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive!

It seems that we apply this collectively.

Regarding our fate I beleive it will be clearly a messy combination of the sacred and profane. There will be many who feel like V2, there is no difference really between an environmentalist who spews this ignorance and a racist who harbors anti immigrant sentiments. Isn't this all part of the basket of the profane.

Most likely there will be a vast sea of primitive and profane positions taken by Kudzu Apes feeling the big squeeze but I put my greatest hopes in those oasis of wisdom and compassion that will represent a counter balance. From there can maybe, possibly, perhaps emerge a more wise stewardship.

One more comment comes to mind. V2 should understand something. There is no need to put the affluent in cages....... they are already in a cage.... the bars may be of gold but none the less they are encaged in a paradigm of deep ignorance.
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 4

Unread postby Vermillion2 » Thu 07 Feb 2019, 08:43:55

dohboi wrote:Nicely put, V2! And welcome to the fray!


Thank you.


Ibon said that domesticated animals are kept in cages, which is true and appalling. However, it is also true that for much of European and Asian history, 90% of human beings in civilized cultures were kept illiterate and uneducated -- while about half of the land within borders was left as a kind of natural preserve. That's to say nothing of the huge Eurasian steppe and northern forests, kept off limits to the civilized world for thousands of years until the expansion of the Russian empire, and finally, Communism (which utterly wrecked many habitats in Eurasia).

Newfie says modern human beings are like cancer, which is also true. However note that "emotional growth" is not necessarily any less "evil" of a solution than say, killing people. For example, in first world societies humanity isn't really "cancerous". Although we still contribute greatly to air pollution, are very wasteful, and our demand for stuff like fat-based soap has resulted in deforestation -- we are nevertheless undergoing negative indigenous population growth and we do litter less than the third world (and poorer areas of the old second world, like in China).

In the United States and probably Canada, the plains are now reforesting, and four-legged animals such as deer and bison are making rapid comebacks as the midwest depopulates. It is now common to see deer, coyotes, mountain lions and even panthers in urban communities where they hadn't been seen for nearly 100 years. I know Japan (newly reforested) is now being overrun with bears, sika deer and wild hogs as every region except Tokyo and Osaka empty out.

All this has come at the cost of cultural degeneration, divorce, loneliness, tension between the sexes, confusion, an increasingly hateful, superficially discriminatory and spiteful social climate, rampant alcoholism/drug addiction and associated mortality (in the United States only), very high rates of suicide, mental illness and also much poverty and rising masses of urban and suburban homeless. Much of these are side effects of "intellectual and emotional growth". It was intelectually and emotionally overgrown officials and radicals who kickstarted the trends that led to all of this in the 20th century. I'm not blaming the left here - both left and right wing ideology contributed to the deep pain that is running through the United States right now (which, along with Japan has seen the most rapid and encouraging resurgence of land-based mammal populations in the first world).

I fail to see how humanity can stop resembling cancer while having anything resembling a good quality of life. At the same time, education and good quality of life leads to physical and emotional suffering. It's a paradox. You can't argue for humanity to cut back without also arguing for human misery.

Ibon also claims that humanity can go back to doing stupid stuff after it gets wrecked; but what is more likely: humanity coming back from a "judgment day" event and going back to building skyscrapers and computers; or humanity skipping the "emotional and intellectual growth" experiment and voting for Donald Trump/Brexit/Salvini/Bolsonaro after the living conditions/rage become intolerable?

The faith in "emotional and spiritual growth" is far less reliable than an unstoppable wave of death, and also has the highest probability of failure.



Thanks for confirming yet again V2, that enviro-wackos are a death cult


You are welcome and I don't find that the least bit discouraging or stigmatizing anymore.
Last edited by Vermillion2 on Thu 07 Feb 2019, 08:56:04, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 4

Unread postby GHung » Thu 07 Feb 2019, 08:55:16

Cog wrote:Darn those pesky capitalists for creating modern civilization and giving us the best standard of living the world has ever known.


Yes! The best! High levels of obesity, heart disease, diabetes, cancer, obscene waste streams, and a population that is clearly clueless about pretty much anything that matters much. And we have compassion and family valu........ (never mind that).

The Best!
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 4

Unread postby Cog » Thu 07 Feb 2019, 09:03:02

GHung wrote:
Cog wrote:Darn those pesky capitalists for creating modern civilization and giving us the best standard of living the world has ever known.


Yes! The best! High levels of obesity, heart disease, diabetes, cancer, obscene waste streams, and a population that is clearly clueless about pretty much anything that matters much. And we have compassion and family valu........ (never mind that).

The Best!


Some people make bad life choices. Doesn't mean I need to cage them up.
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 4

Unread postby GHung » Thu 07 Feb 2019, 09:18:24

Cog wrote:.........

Some people make bad life choices. Doesn't mean I need to cage them up.


Doesn't mean you have to make sense either.
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