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When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 3

Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 3

Unread postby dohboi » Sun 17 Sep 2017, 22:12:26

P wrote: " I picture an abandoned Cruise Ship crashed into the shore nearby, so I can raid it for bottles of wine ..."

That, my friend, was truly priceless! :-D :-D :-D
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 3

Unread postby onlooker » Mon 20 Nov 2017, 20:19:06

https://www.thetyee.ca/Opinion/2017/11/ ... -collapse/
A curious thing about H. sapiens is that we are clever enough to document — in exquisite detail — various trends that portend the collapse of modern civilization, yet not nearly smart enough to extricate ourselves from our self-induced predicament.
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 3

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 20 Nov 2017, 20:43:57

I was just thinking about that. We can come up with complex, well founded theories about the very beginning of the entire universe, but we can't figure you how to sustain the only planet we have to sustain us.

It beggars belief and boggles the brain!
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 3

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 20 Nov 2017, 21:19:37

A few brilliant individuals understand the advanced physics.

Creating a sustainable culture requires significant cooperation from everyone.

Individuals may be bright. Collectively we are pretty stupid.
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 3

Unread postby dohboi » Tue 21 Nov 2017, 00:08:22

But we also do many brilliant things collectively, just not as a whole human society.

I really think it has to do with the brain damage that comes from getting to be and being at or near the top of the power pyramid. The drive toward power generally makes one blind to so many other things, that once in power, the powerful cannot really think of anything else except trying to attain yet more power, survival of the planet or species be damned.

...
just a thought
...
discuss :-D
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 3

Unread postby asg70 » Tue 21 Nov 2017, 00:51:04

Yeast in the petri dish aren't that sophisticated. You don't have to be a 1%er to do your part to kill the planet. Just consume more than 1 earth and have kids above replacement.
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 3

Unread postby dohboi » Tue 21 Nov 2017, 11:55:53

But we are a bit more 'organized' than yeast, and a relatively few people are using way more than 1%
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 3

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 21 Nov 2017, 12:41:50

So just kill the 1% and all will be right?

It’s always nice to so sure you know the right group to hate.
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 3

Unread postby dohboi » Tue 21 Nov 2017, 12:53:00

No hate involved, just math.

And you are the only one mentioning killing.

Projection much?
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 3

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 21 Nov 2017, 19:36:55

Not projecting, interpreting.

You keep going on about the 1% as if they are somehow different from the rest.

You talk about the 1% as if they were some kind of different species, that were not for THEY then WE would be OK.

So, let’s assume you are correct, and the 1% are somehow different from the rest of us. And THEY are principally responsible for the destruction of Earth.

Now what am I supposed to do with the revealed truth? Just stand by while 1% of the population destroys everything for all?

Now don’t just get snarky and run away, answer the question..... what actions are you advocating?
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 3

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 21 Nov 2017, 19:48:02

BTW, according to The GLOBAL Rich list, the Top 1%, based on income, is anyone making $32,000 or more.

http://www.globalrichlist.com
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 3

Unread postby pstarr » Tue 21 Nov 2017, 19:54:57

"the powerful cannot really think of anything else except trying to attain yet more power, survival of the planet or species be damned."
Sounds like ultimate corruption

dohboi must believe that the 1% use 99x more energy than regular people. Their cars only get .3 miles per gallon, their homes are all 180,000 sq. ft. they eat 288 pounds of food per day. But that is BS of course.

The rich are only incrementally more profligate than the rest. Their wealth is a bookeeping entry, not a measure of physical consumption. Their wealth is in property, capital ownership, the means of production and the goods we consume. The wealthy don't burn up 99 times more fossil fuels for themselves. They do it your us. For you, dohboi. Who's to blame?
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 3

Unread postby onlooker » Tue 21 Nov 2017, 20:00:30

Yes, one must add in the aggregate consumption and also take into into account good environmental stewardship practices of swaths of people and societies. So its complex and not cut and dry black and white
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 3

Unread postby GHung » Tue 21 Nov 2017, 20:03:55

Their wealth is a bookeeping entry, not a measure of physical consumption.


If velocity of money is a proxy for, or represents, consumption, then the effect on consumption is similar. They are the Pied Pipers of consumption, promoting growth and manufacturing consent.

How's that for ya, P?
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 3

Unread postby dohboi » Tue 21 Nov 2017, 20:11:01

Newf wrote: "...as if...as if..."

I make none of the assumptions you seem to assume that I make, so again, you are the one making assumptions here. Please desist from assuming you know exactly what I intend and just stick to what I actually say, if you don't mind terribly. :-D :-D
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 3

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 22 Nov 2017, 08:01:19

Then spit it out man.

What are you proposing for the 1%?

Look, what I’m trying to do is to get you to think it through. It’s one thing to make accusations and another to understand the true mechanics of a situation.

As always, the action is in the verb. So given your statement about the 1%, what fo you propose we do?
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 3

Unread postby Ibon » Wed 22 Nov 2017, 08:41:00

dohboi wrote:I really think it has to do with the brain damage that comes from getting to be and being at or near the top of the power pyramid.


When guests come to Mount Totumas I show them pictures of mountain lions and jaguars that our game cameras have captured and I always like to mention that when you walk the trails you are sharing this space with apex predators. I mention this not to frighten them but to hopefully inject a sense of humility and respect as they walk the trails. That this enhances their wilderness experience. I always view this as a "forced humility" since you walk a bit more gingerly on our trails without that omnipotent confidence that most humans have without even realizing it. Most people find this "forced humility" enlightening and novel. It's forced because you did not choose to walk gingerly, the knowledge of a big cat in your midst forced you to move more humbly.

I spent much of my youth in wilderness areas where I was sharing the space with apex predators that had the power to take me out. This always had a huge impact on the way I moved through these spaces, again, not out of fear but out of a deeper humility. More importantly, it had a huge impact in how I moved through human spaces, how I held mother nature in a more balanced place in the grand scheme of things.

Humans today walk about their human landscapes with omnipotent confidence. They only fear other humans not nature since we have eliminated all the apex predators from our environment, even the microscopic ones that used to control our over population. We actually removed the entire natural ecosystem actually, not just the apex predators.

Dohboi's comment here is spot on. So much of the disconnect or "brain damage" we have toward the natural world and the destruction we are responsible for collectively is because we have lost this humility and respect. Most of the planet's inhabitants are now urban dwellers so the misunderstanding is so profound that everything I comment here represents a total abstraction for most of the planets inhabitants if they would read these words.

Does this make me despair? No. Does it make me better able to accept the horrific devastation that may one day occur if we do experience a severe correction of human over shoot? Yes. Does the majority of humanity deserve compassion when they lack the humility and respect toward the natural world? This is the tricky one to answer. I want to say NO but the fact that the majority of humanity has not been given the chance to even understand that question in some ways makes them not culpable. If you are born in a completely human environment how can you be held culpable to the genocide of natural ecosystems?

Most of humanity may very well one day perish never having even understood their ignorance in this regard. It's like they were already born as excess baggage and never got to play in the field of mother nature in the first place because their very existence is due to the genocide of their fathers destroying natural ecosystems to make room for them.

In the Great Biotic Exchange if you as a human were born after your forefathers committed the genocide to make room for you and you no longer have access to learn from mother nature is your ignorance really your own fault?

This is a profound question to contemplate.
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 3

Unread postby onlooker » Wed 22 Nov 2017, 08:59:25

Yes as a layperson, I have found it very instructive to listen to some of you who have a better understanding of these forces at play. I found it profoundly revealing that we humans are unable to grasp our subordination to natural laws and forces. And yes it is to a large part, a product of our collective indoctrination into our self adulation of our capabilities and powers. And it seems much of this stems from our competition with each other and the consequent need to be and feel superior
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 3

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 22 Nov 2017, 13:29:40

Ibon San d:

Does the majority of humanity deserve compassion when they lack the humility and respect toward the natural world? This is the tricky one to answer. I want to say NO but the fact that the majority of humanity has not been given the chance to even understand that question in some ways makes them not culpable. If you are born in a completely human environment how can you be held culpable to the genocide of natural ecosystems?


This oddly reminded me of catechism classes, which I failed for asking too many questions.

What I was taught was that a heathen who never hears the word of God will go to purgatory for some undefined long period. But one shoe hears the word, even briefly, and does not accept the One True Religion will surely go to Hell.

I thought the similar logic was interesting.
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 3

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 22 Nov 2017, 13:34:16

Further in this topic of humans being exposed to the issues I have too much to say.

Our western world news is abbysimal

I sometimes read India Today or Zee News for a different perspective. If that news is fundamentally similar in structure to Western news, with some weird cuktural twists.

That’s why I think it’s so important that folks who can do speak out. I applaud Al Gore for his efforts, and condem Obama the Coward. I applaud the 15,000 scientist and their recent open letter.

I deplore the cc movement folks who say “We can’t tell the masses the truth, it will scare them.”
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