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Whats the tight oil prospect for Saudi Arabia?

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Re: Whats the tight oil prospect for Saudi Arabia?

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Tue 29 Mar 2016, 21:21:31

The Jurassic section occurs much higher in the section and becomes shallower and shallower until it is exposed at the surface to the west of Ghawar. Perhaps these shales might produce oil if fracked. :)


The issue is unlike the US shales which were buried to great depth and then uplifted an enormous amount the Jurassic section in SA did not recieve the same history. Hence the Jurassic shales tend to be less indurated and hence less susceptible to fracking.....at least I seem to remember that was our conclusion a number of years ago when we conducted a worldwide look at shales.

As it turns out the US shales were lucky in that they encountered all of the best conditions (at least a lot of them did). There are shales in North America that do not respond as well to a frack and that is apparently the problem with the shales in Poland.
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Re: Whats the tight oil prospect for Saudi Arabia?

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Tue 29 Mar 2016, 21:43:47

Outcast - Can't give a single citation because it't too general. All I can suggest is just start pulling up dozens of referrernces on US petroleum geology and start writing down the very long list of shale formations that are not the EFS and Bakken. Mighty be best to start with the stratigraphic column in the EFS trend. The EFS section that produces oil averages around 200' thick. Above and below it are about 10,000' of other shale formations that exist in the oil window. Next search the other few dozen US basins (including the Wiliston that holds the Bakken) and add up the hundreds of thousands feet of shale formations that exist within the oil window thaf ARE NOT producing any meaningful amount of oil.

Globally the vast majority of sedimentary rocks are shale. The prob!em with giving a single reference is that geologists wouldn't spend the time making such a broad study. There are thousand of geologic reports you can study to make you own big picture. Only took me about 15 years to get a handle on it.

Think about it: we had years if high oil prices, more petroleum geologist the the rest of the world, the greatest concentrating by far oc the drilling and frac'ng infrastructure in the world, $TRILLIONS of capex plowed into the oil patch, the vast majority of public oil companies on the planet (companies desperate to grow arrests at any cost) and lastly, thanks to private mineral ownership, by far the easiest access to drilling on planet.

Now do you think with all that going for the US oil patch we've been sitting on our asses and not evaluating the hundreds of other shale formations for their oil potential? And yet the majority of the oil from US shales still comes from just two formations with a combined thickness of less than 590'. Now think about how few US shale formations have been developed into meaningful oil producers with all the huge advantages we have. Now imagine the future of global oil production from shales: at the same time high oil prices led to the US boom name all the foreign shales developed into their own booms. If that didn't happen in the last 8 years what do you think the odds are of it happening in the next 8 years? The next 18 years? The next 28 years? Etc. Etc.

Folks can predict any sh*t they want because those are just OPINIONS. Opinions that can be argued but never proved. But what can't be argued are FACTS: the majority of the oil produced from the many HUNDREDS of global shale formations still came from just 2 formations that hold less than 1% of the shale volume on the planet. Much less than 1%. .
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Re: Whats the tight oil prospect for Saudi Arabia?

Unread postby americandream » Tue 29 Mar 2016, 21:49:51

C8 wrote:Maybe Saudi Arabia has no choice but to pump as they would just lose market share and prices may crash anyway.

I am not sure they even know entirely what is geologically possible on their land. I haven't heard of exploratory fracking attempts. In the end, after all the models have been run, the only truth is to try.


I watch US inventories, the Saudi and US playoffs and see where that goes. For the moment, the world looks well supplied, the Saudis are running around the place trying to borrow, they are setting up the empire to run on steroids (hajj corporatism) and, whilst our politicians sleep and scratch their collective well fed arses, the Saudis continue to work diligently at increasing hajj tourism via their head chopping offshore conglomerates. If we can cut the buggers loose from the oil gravy train, we will be doing ourselves a great favour and sparing us lots of grief.

edit: Of course, that wont save the planet but meh, one issue at a time.
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Re: Whats the tight oil prospect for Saudi Arabia?

Unread postby toolpush » Tue 29 Mar 2016, 22:43:39

I can't say if the Saudis have large shale oil/gas resources or not, but they are certainly giving it a go. Last August, they had a large recruitment drive in Houston, looking for experienced driller/toolpushers in shale.

As I understood it, they were looking to find/develop gas to replace oil in their power stations and de-desalination plants and free up crude for export.
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Re: Whats the tight oil prospect for Saudi Arabia?

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Tue 29 Mar 2016, 23:09:02

ROCKMAN wrote:Outcast - Can't give a single citation because it't too general. All I can suggest is just start pulling up dozens of referrernces on US petroleum geology and start writing down the very long list of shale formations that are not the EFS and Bakken. Mighty be best to start with the stratigraphic column in the EFS trend. The EFS section that produces oil averages around 200' thick. Above and below it are about 10,000' of other shale formations that exist in the oil window. Next search the other few dozen US basins (including the Wiliston that holds the Bakken) and add up the hundreds of thousands feet of shale formations that exist within the oil window thaf ARE NOT producing any meaningful amount of oil.

Globally the vast majority of sedimentary rocks are shale. The prob!em with giving a single reference is that geologists wouldn't spend the time making such a broad study. There are thousand of geologic reports you can study to make you own big picture. Only took me about 15 years to get a handle on it.

...

...what do you think the odds are of it happening in the next 8 years? The next 18 years? The next 28 years? Etc. Etc.

Folks can predict any sh*t they want because those are just OPINIONS. Opinions that can be argued but never proved. But what can't be argued are FACTS: the majority of the oil produced from the many HUNDREDS of global shale formations still came from just 2 formations that hold less than 1% of the shale volume on the planet. Much less than 1%. .

Thanks Rock. You answered my question and it's what I generally expected. It's HIDEOUSLY complicated, especially for someone without a geologist/oilman background (I'm just a dumb software guy -- decent at symbol manipulation and spreadsheets, but clueless with most physical tools and their advanced applications).

That's why I turn to books like "The Domino Effect". They might be wrong, but at least they project a coherent view in language that an educated layman can understand. And if the authors aren't too full of themselves and have lots of experience, IMO, that gives them some credibility.

I explained more about this in my post above to C8's question about KSA and fracking. The main answer the author of this book gives to your question about international fracking is in that post, and given that the US has at least a 10 year lead in his opinion, 18 years sounds about right IF the price of oil is right.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Whats the tight oil prospect for Saudi Arabia?

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Tue 29 Mar 2016, 23:14:22

[
C8 wrote:Maybe Saudi Arabia has no choice but to pump as they would just lose market share and prices may crash anyway.

I am not sure they even know entirely what is geologically possible on their land. I haven't heard of exploratory fracking attempts. In the end, after all the models have been run, the only truth is to try.

One thing that bothers me. IF the KSA knows they can produce a TON of oil revenue via shale wells, why are they choosing NOW to try to divest Aramco? I suspect instead that their (unaudited) supposedly rarely changing gigantic reserves may be making them nervous -- wanting to get out before the world realizes they have a big problem.

I could be wrong of course, but when the numbers involved are on the scale of $trillions, and they won't let foreigners audit their reserves, call me VERY suspicious.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Whats the tight oil prospect for Saudi Arabia?

Unread postby Plantagenet » Tue 29 Mar 2016, 23:24:44

Saudis testing new technology to frack carbonates

technology-for-a-saudi-fracking-boom-moves-closer-to-reality

The US developed new technology and equipment to frack tight oil shales. Saudi is testing new Norwegian technology designed to frack carbonates. If successful, this new technology would open up a whole new category of targets for oil exploration.

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Check this out. The shale oil revolution is about to be augmented by the carbonate oil revolution.

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Saudi testing a new technology to frack and produce oil from tight carbonates
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Re: Whats the tight oil prospect for Saudi Arabia?

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Tue 29 Mar 2016, 23:27:14

One thing that bothers me. IF the KSA knows they can produce a TON of oil revenue via shale wells, why are they choosing NOW to try to divest Aramco? I suspect instead that their (unaudited) supposedly rarely changing gigantic reserves may be making them nervous -- wanting to get out before the world realizes they have a big problem.


like any other oil company when times get tough decisions become tougher. In this case the low oil prices have caused them to dig deep into their reserves in order to fund social programs. Unlike many companies that were already leveraged to the hilt Aramco has no debt. Selling shares will be very lucrative, they will not have to sell a lot given what the total value of the company is likely to be assessed at.

So nothing nefarious going on....they just see this as a viable way to raise capital that is needed to close the gap between cashflow and budget.

I can't say if the Saudis have large shale oil/gas resources or not, but they are certainly giving it a go. Last August, they had a large recruitment drive in Houston, looking for experienced driller/toolpushers in shale.

As I understood it, they were looking to find/develop gas to replace oil in their power stations and de-desalination plants and free up crude for export.


The Saudis started this push quite awhile ago. I attended a very large business conference in London years ago with one of the Princes, the head of Aramco at the time and many ministers. They were pushing the very first open bid round for blocks in the Rub Al Khali (empty quarter). Gas was the target but at the time shale wasn't. Vertical wells drilled by the Russians and Chinese were largely unsucessful. My understanding is they are now having a second look with the shales and tight sands/siltstones as a target for horizontal drilling and fracking.

Saudi testing a new technology to frack and produce oil from tight carbonates


Last time I looked most of the carbonates that aren't shales or marls are quite porous and permeable. Not sure why they would want to frack them.
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Re: Whats the tight oil prospect for Saudi Arabia?

Unread postby americandream » Tue 29 Mar 2016, 23:39:28

Outcast_Searcher wrote:[
C8 wrote:Maybe Saudi Arabia has no choice but to pump as they would just lose market share and prices may crash anyway.

I am not sure they even know entirely what is geologically possible on their land. I haven't heard of exploratory fracking attempts. In the end, after all the models have been run, the only truth is to try.

One thing that bothers me. IF the KSA knows they can produce a TON of oil revenue via shale wells, why are they choosing NOW to try to divest Aramco? I suspect instead that their (unaudited) supposedly rarely changing gigantic reserves may be making them nervous -- wanting to get out before the world realizes they have a big problem.

I could be wrong of course, but when the numbers involved are on the scale of $trillions, and they won't let foreigners audit their reserves, call me VERY suspicious.


Not opening up your reserves to an audit is one thing, auditing them and acting like a monopoly in the global oil arena is another. Assuming they know that their reserves are dwindling and not far off depletion, why would they deliberately seek to drive out US competition (and I know that the shale reserves/resources are supposed to be this and that going by our resident geologists...but it makes no sense that they would be in competitive mode for a dying business unless of course they envisioned taking ownership of a world running on camels.

How likely is that as opposed to there being the possibility that our resident geologists are not aware of or perhaps have overlooked in their fine, long and evidently illustrious careers, evidence that suggests otherwise.

Personally, I would not trust the Saudis as far as I can throw a them. Nor as a rule do I distrust my common sense in favour of the vast ocean of pundits out there. Learnt one too many lessons. Clearly, I haven't got the time to pore over the finer points of oil geology but something does not add up here, especially with the ramping up of the hajj business, the frantic lobbying that is going on as regards Iran (the usual dumbfcuk lobby the Saudis seem to have access to in the Republican and Democrat parties) and just the sheer fact that these snakes seem to so conveniently slither past shitpiles with the ease they do.
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Re: Whats the tight oil prospect for Saudi Arabia?

Unread postby Synapsid » Wed 30 Mar 2016, 00:02:52

outcast searcher,

About Saudi Aramco divestment: When this was first mentioned in the news a while back it was stated that divestment would be in the downstream (refineries and petrochemicals and such) end and not upstream--not reserves, in other words. Parts of the system but not the sources of hydrocarbons.
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Re: Whats the tight oil prospect for Saudi Arabia?

Unread postby americandream » Wed 30 Mar 2016, 00:07:30

Synapsid wrote:outcast searcher,

About Saudi Aramco divestment: When this was first mentioned in the news a while back it was stated that divestment would be in the downstream (refineries and petrochemicals and such) end and not upstream--not reserves, in other words. Parts of the system but not the sources of hydrocarbons.


From my recollections it was seen as a deregulation of the Saudi economy (Thatcherism Saudi style)....lmfao....deregulating the only business they have other than selling voodoo to 1.6 billion peasants.
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Re: Whats the tight oil prospect for Saudi Arabia?

Unread postby C8 » Wed 30 Mar 2016, 09:44:19

Outcast_Searcher wrote:
C8 wrote:Maybe Saudi Arabia has no choice but to pump as they would just lose market share and prices may crash anyway.

I am not sure they even know entirely what is geologically possible on their land. I haven't heard of exploratory fracking attempts. In the end, after all the models have been run, the only truth is to try.

I read what I considered a real good book on the shale fracking revolution (which I need to get around to reviewing at some point -- maybe when my taxes are done.

It's called "The Domino Effect", by a guy (Russell Braziel) with 40 years in the business, with lots of real world experience in natural gas, NGL's, and oil production.

I'll summarize some key points here, as they're germane to your post.

He says the US has at least a ten year head start on the rest of the world in Shale fracking. He says between some countries banning shale fracking, the big economic downturn in 2008 delaying some projects for a long time are two minor reasons. He gives the major reason as that each major shale formation is different. It takes a long lead time to explore, experiment, and find the "keys" to most productively drill each formation. In an entrepreneurial country like the US, some businesses will take such risks (and hope for the big payoff). Not so in the vast majority of big state-owned oil behemoths, he claims. (This is one of the reasons they tend to be inefficient).

So if this is correct, the KSA well might not know what is possible on their oil lands via fracking.

To me, if they see the writing on the wall and fear longer term high production and low oil prices due to US shale fracking for oil (and eventually global fracking), like you say, they may feel they have no choice.

I don't know what will happen, but Braziel points out that US shale fracking is responsible for the long term abundance and price crash in natural gas. He says now that's been hitting crude oil and NGL's. And he thinks there's lots more to come. He does NOT give specific forecasts, forecast specific product prices (or crude prices), but instead shows a general picture about how over time, abundance tends to push the whole complex down, especially since many wells produce all three drill bit hydrobarbons.

This, for example, is why dry NG prices continued to be pummelled, even as frackers were targeting wet gas when oil was still expensive. Well, wet gas wells produce lots of dry gas too, so the volumes increased, even though the dry gas wasn't the primary target.

He claims a lot is known in the US about shale formations, which is why he's confident shale oil plays will tend to be lucrative. Drillers can be confident a given formation will produce when fracked once it is intensively studied. They won't know HOW lucrative until they've done early drilling/experimenting on the formation for months to years though.

There are a LOT of shale formations around the world. He is confident that there will be a lot of oil produced from such shales -- but it may be decades before we see it, especially if US fracking keeps prices averaging well below $100 for quite a while.

He could be wrong of course, but his analysis of the history of the drill bit hydrocarbons uses data, logic, dates, economics, and plenty of analysis, along with historical pricing events and trends to build a case that demonstrates (to me) that the man knows what he's talking about.

So you're clearly right -- the only truth is to try. However, statistically, apparently overall there is a lot of oil in the globe's shale, and a meaningful amount of that will be profitably recoverable -- when the oil price is right.


thanks for the detailed reply- no two rock formations are the same, in the end the proof is in drilling
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Re: Whats the tight oil prospect for Saudi Arabia?

Unread postby C8 » Wed 30 Mar 2016, 09:53:35

From what I understand also, SA folks are buying a lot of world real estate. This is something I would do if I had tons of cash but an iffy future revenue stream.
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Re: Whats the tight oil prospect for Saudi Arabia?

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Wed 30 Mar 2016, 11:43:14

From what I understand also, SA folks are buying a lot of world real estate. This is something I would do if I had tons of cash but an iffy future revenue stream.


Remember that the Saudis have for quite sometime been heavily invested outside of the kingdom. At one point they were noted to have around $600 billion invested in US financial entities although this has been moved over the years I believe. I think what you are seeing and will see in the future is the kingdom's push to diversify. Being a "one trick pony" in this case petroleum is great when that horse is well in front of the rest but when it gets crippled (i.e. as current oil prices are) it doesn't feel like a good place to be. There was an interesting article not that long ago from McKinsey and company (one of the larger management and business consultant firms) that spoke to the need for diversification in SA
[url]http://www.mckinsey.com/global-themes/employment-and-growth/moving-saudi-arabias-economy-beyond-oil
[/url]
Our model integrating Saudi Arabia’s economic, labor-market, and fiscal perspectives shows that even if the country responds to these challenging conditions with policy changes such as a budget freeze or immigration curbs, unemployment will rise rapidly, household income will fall, and the fiscal position of the national government will deteriorate sharply.
However, a productivity-led economic transformation could enable Saudi Arabia to double its GDP again and create as many as six million new jobs by 2030 (exhibit). We estimate this would require about $4 trillion in investment. Eight sectors—mining and metals, petrochemicals, manufacturing, retail and wholesale trade, tourism and hospitality, healthcare, finance, and construction—have the potential to generate more than 60 percent of this growth opportunity


Not sure why everyone wants to see bears behind every tree when it comes to the Saudi intent. If you paid attention to what they were saying in public and in SPE publications (that is if you actually read the publications which at least one famous author did not) back a decade ago and then compared it to where they are now it seems they simply stated the facts and performed exactly what they said they were going to do, with of course Manifa being the exception (no market for the heavier crude). Having worked in the immediate region over the years what became clear to me was that the true intent of each of the families in SA, Qatar, UAE was to secure their own countries. They did not bear any ill will to anyone (outside of Iran for obvious religious differences and the fact the Iranians loved to get in their face) unless they threatened their own sovereignty. This was the case with Gulf War I...the kingdom was considerably worried about Iraq and were more than happy to have the US protect their borders. More recent actions such as the fight for market share is nothing more than trying to protect their sovereignty. They count on oil revenues to fund their internal social programs and pay for the large public sector employment so fighting to maintain market share is simply a form of fighting for survival. As protectors of Mecca it is in their own interests to spend whatever they can to keep it in destination resort fashion for the annual pilgrimage.

One final point I should make here is that in regards to large scale fracking programs in Saudi Arabia it is important to remember the need for huge volumes of fresh water. That is found at a premium in SA and especially so in the Rub Al Khali. There are some techniques to use salt water for fracking but they are not widely used at this time and the results are not yet statistical. Chemical fracks (nitrogen as an example) are quite expensive and the economics in this particular case might be suspect.
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Re: Whats the tight oil prospect for Saudi Arabia?

Unread postby Doug_T » Wed 30 Mar 2016, 11:44:57

perhaps, but doubtful. About 2/3rds of tight plays that have been tested have failed: http://www.epmag.com/shale-vs-big-exploration-688506 Note that this was published in early 2013, so economic criterea to define "success" would be even tougher now.

They've been testing (basically condemning) some tight carbonate for gas - good work but poor results published here: http://digital.ogj.com/ogjournal/20151207?pg=59#pg59
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Re: Whats the tight oil prospect for Saudi Arabia?

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 30 Mar 2016, 12:51:34

rockdoc123 wrote:
Last time I looked most of the carbonates that aren't shales or marls are quite porous and permeable. Not sure why they would want to frack them.


The Saudis want to use "fishbone" technology to frack carbonate reservoirs to drill and frack new tight carbonate rocks and to enhance the amount of oil that can be recovered from existing oil fields in carbonate rocks. Typically, only 20-40% of the oil in an oil field carbonate reservoir is recovered. By fracking the carbonate reservoir, as much as 60% of the can be be recovered, more or less doubling the amount of oil that is produced.

If this new fracking technology can DOUBLE the amount of oil that can be recovered in Saudi Arabia, don't you think the Saudis should be testing it and using it?

fishbones website

fishbones video

rockdoc123 wrote:One final point I should make here is that in regards to large scale fracking programs in Saudi Arabia it is important to remember the need for huge volumes of fresh water.


Perhaps that is another reason why the Saudis are testing/using the new Fishbones technology for their fracking program.

The fishbone fracking technique for carbonates doesn't need large volumes of water.

(See the links above.)

Cheers!

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Fishbones! Saudi Arabia! Fracking! Carbonates! Cool!
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Re: Whats the tight oil prospect for Saudi Arabia?

Unread postby eugene » Wed 30 Mar 2016, 13:15:06

I always enjoy endless comments by people who have read an article or two somewhere, some time arguing with people who the subject is their business. I have decades of experience as a professional pilot and, all to often, am lectured by people who read an article somewhere. Once listening to someone tell me what jets will and will not do, another guy edged up to me and asked "didn't you fly these"? Yep I said and listened to the self styled expert. Long ago, I learned the self styled folks are way to invested in being right. And like a puppy with a rag, just won't let go.
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Re: Whats the tight oil prospect for Saudi Arabia?

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 30 Mar 2016, 14:02:49

eugene wrote: I have decades of experience as a professional pilot and, all to often, am lectured by people who read an article somewhere.


I can't imagine why you put up with that. :lol:

Cheers!
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Re: Whats the tight oil prospect for Saudi Arabia?

Unread postby Tanada » Wed 30 Mar 2016, 14:41:03

rockdoc123 wrote:The vast majority of shale reservoirs the Saudis are interested in is located in the Rub Al Khali. Because of depth of burial this area is mainly gas prone. The Saudis would welcome large gas reserves as they could displace fuel oil as an energy source leaving larger oil reserves for export.

As I remember the potential shale reservoirs in the Jurassic and Cretaceous strata were never buried deep enough in and around the major producing fields which would result in rock rheology unsuitable to fracking. Haven't looked at it for years so there may be new thoughts on this.


I remember reading back around the first time I came to this website that KSA was planning to switch all their power plants from burning oil over to burning natural gas. In the early 00's they were investing heavily it more efficient gas oil separation plants partly because they were producing more water cut and partly to recover more of the gas for power production. Some how the story just kind of faded away and here we are over a decade later with the recycled story that KSA is going to switch their electricity production to natural gas as the energy source.

Are they actually building or adapting existing power stations to burn natural gas? If so does anyone have a reliable link?
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Re: Whats the tight oil prospect for Saudi Arabia?

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Wed 30 Mar 2016, 14:57:56

I remember reading back around the first time I came to this website that KSA was planning to switch all their power plants from burning oil over to burning natural gas. In the early 00's they were investing heavily it more efficient gas oil separation plants partly because they were producing more water cut and partly to recover more of the gas for power production. Some how the story just kind of faded away and here we are over a decade later with the recycled story that KSA is going to switch their electricity production to natural gas as the energy source.

Are they actually building or adapting existing power stations to burn natural gas? If so does anyone have a reliable link?


The plan was to use the vast amount of gas they expected to discover from conventional drilling in the Rub Al Khali. Unfortunately, that hasn’t panned out so not really enough gas to offset the requirements for fuel oil. The technology to convert energy source isn’t the problem it is the lack of appropriate reserves that is holding them back. Hence unless they can use saltwater the fracking process becomes a bit of a catch 22…..need the gas to power desalination plants…but need the fresh water to drill horizontal wells and frack to get the gas.
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