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The "Planet of the Humans" documentary thread

Re: The "Planet of the Humans" documentary thread

Unread postby REAL Green » Mon 04 May 2020, 08:23:27

EnergyUnlimited wrote: So lets assume that we want comfortable, high tech world with freedom to all and where anyone can do whatever he wants. Then we need to do following:
1. Trigger a dieoff in such a way that there are 200-500 millions of survivors. .


I have found 1BIL is a good carrying capacity at 1900 level of consumption but 200-500MIL of your type people in that system is definitely workable theoretically. It is my opinion that the automation and robotics needed to supply goods to this higher tech world might not do it. One needs to see what 7BIL people do with hyper global value chains to see how the economics combine with the tech to produce amazing things and quantities. I am not sure 500MIL people even smart with robots and automation could manage that. So maybe the tech level would have to be lower.

EnergyUnlimited wrote: Ensure that survivors of IQ range 120-140 are favoured. Get rid off low IQ people as these are stuck in their ways and resistant to reason. Get rid of geniuses as these can be too disruptive. Embrace extreme hardship which would follow and affect 1-3 generations afterwards. .


That sounds high IQ but what about the high IQ’s that are resistant to reason and do to specialization are also delusional with the wisdom of what is needed for this bee hive world. There are geniuses that might be true leaders that would solve a huge amount of problems in one package. Low IQ people with amazing skills that might have made a large impact. Low IQ’s that might enjoy work high IQ’s can’t do well. To me this is your most difficult part of your new world equation and that is people management. It is the same in the business world. The toughest part of business is people management. An alternative is to have all IQ’s and make sure they are fit to their respective tasks like a bee hive with its specialization but also have all citizens educated in generalized skills of supporting themselves with home economics and permaculture. If the people are town people then they could be more specialized and less permaculture but everyone is adept in home economics.

EnergyUnlimited wrote: Leave free market but also place cap on family and individual wealth to eradicate billionaire class and corruption associated with it. .


Essential price discovery systems are important but free markets can never be free because they aren’t by their nature because of moral hazard that develops in a system of competitive cooperation. Yet, there are system that are better than others. A confederation with a Socialistic hybrid system is a good idea with socialism being the gatekeeper of the public good but also limited so it too does not drift into the moral hazards of corruption and cronyism. Private property of the individual and community respected but gated by a social system of heads of the confederations who cooperate to allow competition.

EnergyUnlimited wrote: 4. Stabilize population - by compulsory sterilization of anyone who is or in future will be fertile and yet needed advanced medical help for any illness except of mechanical injury…So the medical profession should work under general premise to keep infertile anything what by choices of Nature would be dead anyway. But maximum human quotas living on Earth should be in place - if there is a risk of exceeding them then dangerous activities carrying high risk of death should be encouraged.


I feel we need to focus on lifestyles that promote longer life spans with good health and safety. Let’s be clear death is expensive in more advanced societies because of the investment in education and skills people would have. So, death needs to be limited. Strategies would be a no brainer of educating good citizens. Empathy and compassion need to be in place for those who get a taste of bad luck. We are talking humans not robots so people have relationships and will care for loved ones so the system can’t be so extreme as to allow people to die because of survival of the fittest is best genetically. Yet, the survival of everyone is not an option too. Native Americans were good at this. They had a balance of those who were let to die and who was saved based on their life system requirements. They had to because of survival needs.

EnergyUnlimited wrote: 5. Assign 80% of land and 90% of high seas including all ecologically sensitive regions as permanent nature reserves. Ban absolutely all industrial activities there but yet allow people to see and explore those areas. Allow settlements as long as those who wish to live there also wish to lead a lifestyle resembling H-G of the past or alternatively live in small settlements and work only to maintain immediate local community (Amish type of settlements, perhaps with more allowance for advanced tech meant only for personal/community use).


I have found the idea of Amish style communities with human and animal power supplemented by basic robust higher tech is a great idea. These communities that would grow food and maybe produce raw materials would live with intermittency and seasonality. These community would be localized and would by a code of contact not travel and not embrace consumerism. In the towns there would be 24/7 power where the critical nodes are siloed and protected. The key in this situation is enlightened town people who would have more power at their fingertips must protect and nurture the less powerful rural areas. They may also be the centers of overall admin and security. Keeping this more advanced living urbanites fair and supportive to the rural areas who supply the basics of raw materials and food is essential. Both rural and urban would have to have strong civic responsibilities to maintain a discipline to secure the system so, this means much lower personal freedoms than today. I am not sure if humans are capable of this. We saw how communism failed and how capitalism is failing now. Protecting the natural ecosystems is essential so permanent nature reserves are essential. Yet, in low tech settings in tune to natures cycles should be allowed too so a mix of human and ecologically sensitive is called for. Some areas are off limits like wetlands and keystone ecosystems.

EnergyUnlimited wrote: 7. Ban fractional reserve banking and fiat currencies. ).


In a smaller world there could be more barter and gift economies at the lower level and at the more technical levels in the urban 24/7 areas a currency with real value that reflects actual value produced. Debt would be limited to real price discovery strategies that are in a fair system. So, if an idea shows real promise but needs investment to be realized then resources are allocated based upon a debt that is both respectful to both stakeholders of the private and public good. So private property of sorts needs to be allowed but also protected commons of public good. A hybrid fiat currency is likely needed with 500MIL – 1BIL people. Fiat currency is like electric in the grid. It is essential to lubricate activity but like electric also dangerous. Steps must be taken to insulate the system from excesses and moral hazard.

EnergyUnlimited wrote: 8. Allow others to embrace anything they like to do on all remaining land, but put a cap on pollution, so the waste processing by planetary system is in equilibrium. ).


Definitely have a reduce and reuse system that avoids or minimizes tech that is dangerous and polluting. People would practice extreme conservation strategies. There would be more living in situations where comfort is lower and leisure would be restricted to low impact low energy types. A steady state economy would be a goal. If damage or pollution occurs than a degrowth period might be initiated so there would have to be flux to mimic life systems and adaptation to a planet in flux. Evolution needs to be allowed so to speak but so does succession where destructive change occurs to make way for the constructive change of regrowth.

EnergyUnlimited wrote:Never allow billionaire class to re-emerge.


Definitely, this is what has brought down many good civilizations.

Now how to pay for all this and educate the people to this! Yet, ideas like this need to be considered. A theoretical world that is a higher order of meaning should be sought out just as meaning is a natural human attraction because of our large frontal cortex.
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Re: The "Planet of the Humans" documentary thread

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Mon 04 May 2020, 13:15:16

@REAL_Green
This is just an initial proposal.
It is obviously not possible to construct global transition to sustainability policy on one page :)

Regarding your concerns:
I have selected 200 - 500 million bracket for a reason.
Yes, in year 1900 1 Billion could be sustainable but we are no longer living in 1900.
We have devastated so much up to date that 1 billion is likely to be overoptimistic.
This devastation have considerably lowered carrying capacity for long term sustainability.

IQ bracket was selected as something optimal but by no means it is to be considered stringent.
Idea would be to run dieoff period in such a fashion to facilitate survival of those resourceful and innovative in their approach to life.
So those helpless consumers feeling entitled to benefits should be allowed to die together with culture they represent.
Not to be killed but to die due to lack of resources after failing to work out a way to secure them.
Such people are tending to be of low IQ.
I am also warning against geniuses and power seekers in general to prevent our transition project turning into some sort of totalitarian disaster.
It would be exceedingly important to bash those who are seeking excessive influence and good mechanisms controlling that should be in place.
Elements of socialism would need to be embraced to prevent excessive wealth accumulation by individuals, families and clans but anyone could run private business, employ others, as long as wealth accumulation does not exceed $10 or $100 millions at most in current terms.
Larger ventures would exist either as Co-operatives or community/government run entities but the system would need to be placed to ensure that such entities do not have legal personality and distinct individuals can always be held accountable for their misbehaviour.
Taxes on small ventures would be very low but would increase gradually to make too large private undertakings not feasible.
There would not be much need for redistribution as it would be acceptable that those who cannot pull their own weight or secure voluntary support of others are simply allowed to die.
Such situation would also promote existence of close families.
Short term (say maximum a year long) public assistance to cover unexpected would be OK, but it would be expected that individual repays it once his fortunes are improved.
Regarding long life in safety - I have problems with it. Exposure to elements of Nature critical to prevent next population explosion is not going hand to hand with safety.
I would put more pressure on healthy life styles though.
Rural/urban balance would be important, albeit I would give more power to rural. That is to prevent urban encroachment into life of countryside.
But urban life could thrive too and ecologically less important areas could be set aside for industry to thrive.
Industrial undertakings in such selected areas could be feasible as long as costs are not externalized by polluting beyond abilities of planetary system to cope. Tradeable permits could prove handy here and smallest ventures could get temporary exemption to promote innovation.
Regarding currency - I would stick with PM or something what just cannot be printed at someone's whim. Maybe some decentralized digital currency would be good as well.

Discretionary travel could be allowed - for example by auctioning miles of travel permits.
Certain classes of vehicles run on non polluting tech could be sold to individuals. These could be symbols of status as only few could be able to afford them.
But public transport would be efficient and at the same time rationed (with the exception of local urban transport with no rationing other than tickets).
Once all air and train miles for a given year are sold no one more could travel unless he has repurchased them from someone else.
Auctions should be public with tranches for company and government use and tranches for individuals. There would be maximum permissible allowance per person per year available for purchase.
Everyone could get personal annual allowance on the top of it (or alternatively allowance to cover emergencies) and of course travelling without resorting to machinery would be welcomed by all means.
Once ecosystem is rebuilt one could have a wonderful holiday walking 10 or 20 miles out of town where he lives into unspoiled natural habitat.
Also - travel restrictions would be flexible - once Nature is doing better more could be allowed and when there are troubles breeding there would be a cut back.
Big cities with the size of population I mention (200 - 500 millions) would be story of the past. Maybe few would survive so those who love city life would also find what they long for.
New religion based on paganism and Nature worshipping in general would have to be introduced and embraced to stabilize new system.
Last edited by EnergyUnlimited on Mon 04 May 2020, 13:57:06, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The "Planet of the Humans" documentary thread

Unread postby REAL Green » Mon 04 May 2020, 13:54:36

EnergyUnlimited wrote:@REAL_Green
This is just an initial proposal.
It is obviously not possible to construct global transition to sustainability policy on one page :)


Many very good ideas, EU and yea, a book or several could be made to deal with the detail. I think where we differ is you are more leaning to higher civilization in regards to tech and closer to status quo conditions that need intelligent tweaking. I am looking backwards to an earlier time in many ways although open to great new tech, quality things, and best practices to be mixed in a hybridization. I am much more egalitarian and disagree to some extent on low IQ people being a problem. They are a problem becuase of the system. In a different system with less sophistication the low IQ people may even do better. In both our theoretical proposals there is far too much control involved to be realistic. I don't think humans are emotionally up to that much control. Even in Asia where control is much more accepted when it breaks down it does so dramatically. Yet, some of the ideas we both mentioned must be part of the future if a better world is the goal. The status quo is a train wreck in progress and everyone is onboard.
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Re: The "Planet of the Humans" documentary thread

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Mon 04 May 2020, 15:09:04

@REAL_Green,
Regarding low IQ I do not see them as problem by definition but I do not know, how to carry many of them through a bottleneck.
In this proposal I try to make a dieoff as egalitarian as possible but yet not manually controlled by centralized powers, just to prevent totalitarian disaster.
So lets people take care for themselves as good as they can and yet withheld support allowing to carry on with current population.
Maintain stringent and as condition deteriorate increasingly merciless legal system to prevent explosion of gross antisocial behaviour while collapse is proceeding or otherwise our survivors who are left to form new society will consist mainly of psychopaths, cannibals and all sorts of high and low IQ sociopaths.
Such situation would be an end of the road for any hopes to change status quo.

Regarding tech - with low population much tech could be preserved. The all important issue is to build in checks to prevent this tech from facilitating new fits of uncontrolled population growth and yet to allow for greater comfort of life.
Try imagine a sort of Amish community practising permaculture, basic manufacturing of some materials to be processed in town/city and plenty of physical activities and yet equipped with photovoltanic or wind turbine allowing for running household fridges, electric light, basic machines. Perhaps 2 or 3 of them would even have EV and an additional one is for community use?
Too much to ask for?

Regarding control - the general premise should be that the less wealth you have accumulated, the fewer controls you are subjected to.
So lets say, those with net wealth in range up to $ 1-2 millions equivalent would be subjected to very few checks and left to lead life of their choice.
They could not even be subjected to taxes.
But while a wealth of individual is growing more and more responsibility would be expected and increasing societal controls would crop in - precisely to prevent re-emergence of billionaire class.
Hopefully such policy would lead to situation where people find that there *is* an optimal level of wealth which can result in rewarding, care free life and eradicate mentality that more is better.
Yet those who are willing to be subjected to more controls but also contribute more to society would be allowed more wealth. But there would be a limit preventing accumulation of "power money" or anything close to.

But yes, if the status quo continues and we are trying to save everyone for as long as possible, all what can be expected is a discontinuity at some point followed by decay to barbarism and ruin of all. Often I see such scenario as a practically inevitable one.
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Re: The "Planet of the Humans" documentary thread

Unread postby jedrider » Mon 04 May 2020, 15:36:56

I agree Energy. So when do we get out the nukes for all this to happen?

I could imagine all the politicians being convinced that this is how to save the world, that they hide in their bunkers until all this is over.

However, they will be the least capable of surviving in the new environment.

I am with ZERO population. Humans have had their turn, just like the dinosaurs had theirs. Time to move over and die.

In the meantime, I'm thinking of starting a Technology thread, all the nice things technology has given us and also some of the not so nice things. Seems like we just live for taking advantage of technology and looking forward to what that will bring, and forget about nature in the process. Our lost.
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Re: The "Planet of the Humans" documentary thread

Unread postby REAL Green » Mon 04 May 2020, 16:11:24

EnergyUnlimited wrote:@REAL_Green,
Regarding low IQ I do not see them as problem by definition but I do not know, how to carry many of them through a bottleneck. .

Maybe low IQ is my problem. How about unskilled and uneducated because of inability or having no desire to? I agree with that. My problem with IQ is people have talents and a community needs a variety of talents. High IQ people are not always good citizen material. They have other negative factors that mean their intelligence is not adequate to overcome these negatives. Society will need good citizens with low IQ to do those jobs more talented people will not want to do. I know there is automation and robotics but realistically these don’t scale to many jobs plus will this new world we are discussing being able to fund and manufacture such high value tech? You assume this can be done but I feel economically tech will take a big hit with the declines in population we have discussed.

EnergyUnlimited wrote:Maintain stringent and as condition deteriorate increasingly merciless legal system to prevent explosion of gross antisocial behaviour while collapse is proceeding or otherwise our survivors who are left to form new society will consist mainly of psychopaths, cannibals and all sorts of high and low IQ sociopaths. .


Yes, I agree but remember what happened in the French Revolution when high ideas we combined with a killing machine. If this system could be wise and just and rid the system of the undesirables who would destroy the new civilization in the making I would agree. This I how nature works.


EnergyUnlimited wrote:Regarding tech - with low population much tech could be preserved. The all important issue is to build in checks to prevent this tech from facilitating new fits of uncontrolled population growth and yet to allow for greater comfort of life. .


I agree much could be preserved with an enlightened population but how much could be replaced. I have this argument with those who think 100% renewable world could replicate itself. My feeling is a much smaller population would not be able to replicate much of the very high tech we have today. In this case this new society would need to focus in a very wise way what tech is worth keeping and what should be disposed of.


EnergyUnlimited wrote:Try imagine a sort of Amish community practising permaculture, basic manufacturing of some materials to be processed in town/city and plenty of physical activities and yet equipped with photovoltanic or wind turbine allowing for running household fridges, electric light, basic machines. Perhaps 2 or 3 of them would even have EV and an additional one is for community use? Too much to ask for? .


We are on the same page with that.

EnergyUnlimited wrote:Regarding control - the general premise should be that the less wealth you have accumulated, the fewer controls you are subjected to…Hopefully such policy would lead to situation where people find that there *is* an optimal level of wealth which can result in rewarding, care free life and eradicate mentality that more is better. Yet those who are willing to be subjected to more controls but also contribute more to society would be allowed more wealth. But there would be a limit preventing accumulation of "power money" or anything close to. .


That sounds good but let me mention it is my feeling there will not be an issue with billionaires because with a society that has been transformed like we have discussed the stock of wealth would be so much less. In fact, we are likely talking a much poorer world. I say poorer but spiritually and with the natural ecosystem wealthier is possible

EnergyUnlimited wrote:But yes, if the status quo continues and we are trying to save everyone for as long as possible, all what can be expected is a discontinuity at some point followed by decay to barbarism and ruin of all. Often I see such scenario as a practically inevitable one.


That seems to be the case. We are talking about the need for lifeboats and the recognition of the attitude of a hospice where people will have to be allowed to die. I agree. Of course, in these discussions it is assumed the other guy is going to die and not us. The reality is even the worthy ones may die in a bottleneck so the elements of chaos will strike down the good and bad with only so much ability of society to retain the best for a rebirth.
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Re: The "Planet of the Humans" documentary thread

Unread postby dissident » Mon 04 May 2020, 16:46:48

Evolution is an ongoing process. Even if one starts off with a 140 IQ population, after several generations the Gaussian will shift to lower IQ without any selection pressure. It's called entropy. And IQ does not ensure proper intellectual development in any population since that requires the right background state (aka environment). We see this today with severe dumbing down without any particularly strong underlying degeneration.
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Re: The "Planet of the Humans" documentary thread

Unread postby Ibon » Mon 04 May 2020, 17:22:27

Do IQ tests measure emotional intelligence?
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Re: The "Planet of the Humans" documentary thread

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Mon 04 May 2020, 17:55:42

REAL Green wrote: My problem with IQ is people have talents and a community needs a variety of talents. High IQ people are not always good citizen material. They have other negative factors that mean their intelligence is not adequate to overcome these negatives. Society will need good citizens with low IQ to do those jobs more talented people will not want to do.

This is all true but at the moment most of low IQ people tend to be either demoralized or stuck in useless jobs which have thought them no useful skills. They are no longer forming organized labour excelling in mundane yet necessary works.
As such they are mainly ballast.
I live in rather secluded countryside.
I observe locals and what they are doing.
The highest ranking ones (and I am between them) are running tourists outfits. These groups of people are high and low IQ.
Low IQ people are tending not to invest in their business. They tend to take all profits from summer season and enjoy. They are buying very expensive toys for their children, frequently go on city breaks etc. But their businesses are ailing. They don't notice it.
Their takings from year to year are lower and businesses are outcompeted.
They are becoming poor without noticing it and it doesn't need to be like that.
They don't tend to learn any other skills either.

Another group are farmers.
Few more intelligent have purchased most of land from others and now have successful big farms.
Those with smaller land have learned some specialistic skills to grow more sought after and expensive products which demand greater knowledge but not as much land and capital input to produce.
There are 2 beekeepers, both very intelligent. For some reason these beekeepers and no one else are interested in permaculture.
On the other hand low IQ farmers have gone derelict. They can usually be seen drunk, women are having many children, often don't even know who is a father. Often drink while pregnant. Their front gardens are best described as abandoned plots.
They are living out of government handouts or pensions of their elderly parents. Rarely working anywhere except of summer when those running tourist outposts are employing them.
There is problem with petty crime and sometimes more serious one.

There are also tradesmen like carpenters, plumbers or electricians.
Those who are still in business are intelligent. Technology have moved forward.
Not very intelligent plumber or electrician who was doing just fine 10 years ago cannot catch up with it.
He has failed to invest in tools, so he is no longer able to work with new installations. He have failed to keep educating himself so now he even doesn't understand how to work with more modern installation.
So he doesn't get contracts and others who do don't even want to employ him.
So now he is living on government handouts, drinking and beating his wife.

Wherever you watch, world seems to be tilted against lower IQ people.
...there is automation and robotics but realistically these don’t scale to many jobs plus will this new world we are discussing being able to fund and manufacture such high value tech? You assume this can be done but I feel economically tech will take a big hit with the declines in population we have discussed.

I don't see automation and robotics as critical.
I also don't see necessity of large populations for an ability to maintain reasonable high tech to exist.
My feeling is a much smaller population would not be able to replicate much of the very high tech we have today. In this case this new society would need to focus in a very wise way what tech is worth keeping and what should be disposed of.

Watch North Korea - I know, that is a totalitarian catastrophe, yet look how much they are achieving (relatively) even with their very limited resources and insistence on self sufficiency?
Try imagine how much could they achieve with more reasonable government...

That sounds good but let me mention it is my feeling there will not be an issue with billionaires because with a society that has been transformed like we have discussed the stock of wealth would be so much less.

Billionaire is a relative term in context of my arguments.
It would be a guy lets say 10,000 times and more richer than average working guy in his area.
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Re: The "Planet of the Humans" documentary thread

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Mon 04 May 2020, 18:00:33

Ibon wrote:Do IQ tests measure emotional intelligence?

I am cynical with this phrase.
Made up mainly to help women usually underperforming in traditional IQ tests (slim gaussian peak around 100 making them all looking the same) to feel more equal with men.
It can also be defined as an ability of given individual to live out of parasitising on others.
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Re: The "Planet of the Humans" documentary thread

Unread postby Ibon » Mon 04 May 2020, 18:27:46

EnergyUnlimited wrote:
Ibon wrote:Do IQ tests measure emotional intelligence?

I am cynical with this phrase.
Made up mainly to help women usually underperforming in traditional IQ tests (slim gaussian peak around 100 making them all looking the same) to feel more equal with men.
It can also be defined as an ability of given individual to live out of parasitising on others.


Long term adaptation requires social emgineering, think about secular priesthood to navigate cultural norms around environmental ethics, avoiding over consumption, rewards for civic duty,
This requires different intelligence not just technical engineering and mathematics.
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Re: The "Planet of the Humans" documentary thread

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Mon 04 May 2020, 18:41:44

Ibon wrote:Long term adaptation requires social emgineering, think about secular priesthood to navigate cultural norms around environmental ethics, avoiding over consumption, rewards for civic duty,
This requires different intelligence not just technical engineering and mathematics.

You are opening a can of worms.
In addition to manipulative women all sort of psychopaths are tending to display this quality.
Regarding overconsumption - I observe in my life that there is some peak of IQ where people tend to overconsume.
Then with increase (or decrease) of it, consuming habits are being reduced.
There are exceptions but we are talking here about prevailing trends.
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Re: The "Planet of the Humans" documentary thread

Unread postby REAL Green » Mon 04 May 2020, 18:51:38

Many great ideas and we could go on and on about the details. Personally, I think these types of discussions are critical for the future because in my opinion humans are on a gradient of decline. At some point the system will bifurcate into something other than the status quo. When this happens a blue print of sorts will be vital for those who attempt to build up something new. Generally, the standard discussion is about growth and sustainable development not degrowth and abandonment. These topics are related but not useful for comparison. If all the analysis is on growth or lack of and not actual degrowth and decline then there will be a lack of understanding of the process of decline. This will mean decline might be steeper and the degree of pain greater. Decline is much more difficult to navigate so more time should be devoted to its study. It is a matter of risk management but without the status quo basis.
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Re: The "Planet of the Humans" documentary thread

Unread postby Ibon » Mon 04 May 2020, 19:00:26

EnergyUnlimited wrote:
Ibon wrote:Long term adaptation requires social emgineering, think about secular priesthood to navigate cultural norms around environmental ethics, avoiding over consumption, rewards for civic duty,
This requires different intelligence not just technical engineering and mathematics.

You are opening a can of worms.
.


Unfortunately this is a can of worms we cannot avoid. It is clear that enlightenment and secular science has not created a society of individuals who act with free agency. There will always be a percentage of any population of humans that will want to be lead and they will need the appropriate sustainable mythology to guide them. Also there will also be a percentage of any population of humans who will keep the concept of god and a higher being. These are not just low IQ people. Also look how powerful cultural memes can create in populations certain beliefs like for example the "religion of progress" that has been embraced by modern humans. There are so many aspects of this topic EU and I think in your mind you imagine some utopian future human population of a couple hundred million humans all completely secular in their belief system using rational science and logic as their modus operandi.

If you watch young people using digital devices and you really look deeply at the content is this just a worshiping of technology that forms part of the addiction? Is there something intrinsically valuable in this object that can explain why so many people will spend so many hours every day engaged? What part of the user experience departs from practical application and then enters into a kind of technology hypnosis. Can you imagine one day when this technology will lose its glitter and shine and allure? How do you explain that if not by a certain irrational part of human behavior. We will always need experts to manage the irrational part of humans. That requires special intelligence to manage this can of worms. Humans with the social, psychological, spiritual skill set to establish the templates. This is indeed a whole other area of intelligence than hard core science or engineering.

WE will never become a completely science based secular society.

The shamans to set and lead the pagan rituals in whatever form they take in the future to keep us from becoming imbalanced with our relationship with consumption and power and technology.
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Re: The "Planet of the Humans" documentary thread

Unread postby C8 » Mon 04 May 2020, 22:35:13

Ibon wrote:If you watch young people using digital devices and you really look deeply at the content is this just a worshiping of technology that forms part of the addiction? Is there something intrinsically valuable in this object that can explain why so many people will spend so many hours every day engaged? What part of the user experience departs from practical application and then enters into a kind of technology hypnosis. .


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Re: The "Planet of the Humans" documentary thread

Unread postby sparky » Mon 04 May 2020, 23:30:22

.
on the population numbers

during the epidemic I saw the streets and rail stations of Paris , Bruxelles Antwerp and Amsterdam
very few people were moving around
it struck me it was like the everyday life in a world who had lost 19 out of 20 inhabitants
there are multiple reports of cleaner waters , animals feeling safer
I do stargazing and here in Sydney ,the skies are certainly cleaner and clearer ,

one in twenty would be 400 millions ,
this would considerably alleviate the pressure on nature in third world countries too
Poor people are totally ruthless about chopping fishing and eating everything they can
they and their goats are the biggest desertification system around
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Re: The "Planet of the Humans" documentary thread

Unread postby ralfy » Tue 05 May 2020, 23:18:34

Middle class conveniences which poor people can't afford require ecological footprints up to four times higher than what biocapacity can provide.

Members of the middle class are also dependent on more poor people becoming richer and spending more because their own incomes and returns on investment are dependent on increasing sales of goods and services.
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Re: The "Planet of the Humans" documentary thread

Unread postby asg70 » Tue 05 May 2020, 23:32:13

Ibon wrote:This requires different intelligence not just technical engineering and mathematics.


Perhaps, but being unable to understand basic science like climate change trumps all other considerations.

The fact is a great many people still don't even believe in evolution and think the world is only 6000 years old. They don't accept science because their minds are incapable of functioning in a logical enough way. This is also why I rail at the conspiracy theory types like onlooker because they exhibit the same mental flaws. Building 7 is no different from Kirk Cameron's creationist apologia.

Before the enlightenment you could kind of understand why societies crashed and burned without understanding the reasons why and reacting by retreating more and more into superstition (sacrifices to the rain gods). We really don't have those kinds of excuses anymore. Those who continue to think in those terms should not be allowed to vote because they'll send us straight over the cliff at maximum speed.

Ibon wrote:The shamans to set and lead the pagan rituals in whatever form they take in the future to keep us from becoming imbalanced with our relationship with consumption and power and technology.


What do you think happens with preachy environmentalists like Al Gore? They get burned at the proverbial stake.

And how have mildly woo woo post-hippie movements like Transition Town done? And Greer is a druid.

The kind of woo woo that DOES resonate for the deplorables are the destructive kind like Alex "Cannibal" Jones.

What people want is someone to be angry at, not to be made to feel guilty or told to adopt austerity.

Even Christianity itself was sold very much on the backs of a hatred of the Roman Empire with Revelations offering the promise of doomer-porn raining down on the "enemy".

My bet is that the red-state deplorables whom many here think will breeze through collapse sliding gracefully back into some sort of world made by hand will be the dominant demographic source of the zombie horde when all is said and done because they are already feeling disenfranchised by high tech emanating from the cities and they'd probably very easily rationalize sacking them ala the barbarians sacking Rome.

BOLD PREDICTIONS
-Billions are on the verge of starvation as the lockdown continues. (yoshua, 5/20/20)

HALL OF SHAME:
-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
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Re: The "Planet of the Humans" documentary thread

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Wed 06 May 2020, 02:00:55

Ibon wrote:Unfortunately this is a can of worms we cannot avoid. It is clear that enlightenment and secular science has not created a society of individuals who act with free agency. There will always be a percentage of any population of humans that will want to be lead and they will need the appropriate sustainable mythology to guide them.
Also there will also be a percentage of any population of humans who will keep the concept of god and a higher being. These are not just low IQ people.

Spirituality and religion are related but not to be confused with each other.
IMO religion is a form of spirituality for the stupid.

Also look how powerful cultural memes can create in populations certain beliefs like for example the "religion of progress" that has been embraced by modern humans. There are so many aspects of this topic EU and I think in your mind you imagine some utopian future human population of a couple hundred million humans all completely secular in their belief system using rational science and logic as their modus operandi.

The best option would be scientifically literate population of pagan, pantheistic world view.
Perhaps because it is my own personal position :)

If you watch young people using digital devices and you really look deeply at the content is this just a worshiping of technology that forms part of the addiction? Is there something intrinsically valuable in this object that can explain why so many people will spend so many hours every day engaged? What part of the user experience departs from practical application and then enters into a kind of technology hypnosis.

Tech addiction is just a remedy for waning social skills, eg one of many faces of pending cultural collapse.
Virtual world can bring some recognition for those mediocre and useless who can turn after few months of training into respected superheroes.
The kingdom of beta males led by real life omegas rather then alphas (the most respected players are miserables sitting 16 and more hours a day at the game or otherwise they would never hone sufficient skills to get into prominent position in VR world).

Can you imagine one day when this technology will lose its glitter and shine and allure?

Yes, once there is an immediate need to address more existential issues.
Coming soon... wont be pleasant for Millennials and their kids.

We will always need experts to manage the irrational part of humans. That requires special intelligence to manage this can of worms. Humans with the social, psychological, spiritual skill set to establish the templates. This is indeed a whole other area of intelligence than hard core science or engineering.

But the people you mention are usually psychopaths playing others to their own gain.
For me they are very easy to recognize (and mock for what they are - what sometimes can be dangerous but here we are).
They are exceedingly rarely positive characters.

WE will never become a completely science based secular society.

Scientists are not necessarily as secular as you might believe.
I am reasonably versed in science and yet I am not. Most of scientists do understand limits of science and knowledge. It is not that difficult. Then they are designing personal versions of spirituality very much like I did.
Few theories pushed by current lots of theoretical physicists are rather religions than science.
Holographic principle or Multiverse comes to mind.
I know few scientists who designed private versions of spirituality.
Others are still holding to mainstream religions but keep it for themselves.
Personally I believe that people of purely atheistic view are either young... or stupid.

The shamans to set and lead the pagan rituals in whatever form they take in the future to keep us from becoming imbalanced with our relationship with consumption and power and technology.

Yes, there will be an eternal power struggle between a chieftain and a shaman...

asg70 wrote:My bet is that the red-state deplorables whom many here think will breeze through collapse sliding gracefully back into some sort of world made by hand will be the dominant demographic source of the zombie horde when all is said and done because they are already feeling disenfranchised by high tech emanating from the cities and they'd probably very easily rationalize sacking them ala the barbarians sacking Rome.

And rightfully so.
City mobs are living out of taxing and pillaging countryside so they should not be surprised that from time to time rebellion will destroy the city.
Barbarians of late Roman era were noble freedom fighters.
Lets all the gods be with them. :)
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Re: The "Planet of the Humans" documentary thread

Unread postby REAL Green » Wed 06 May 2020, 08:29:15

EnergyUnlimited wrote:
Ibon wrote:Also there will also be a percentage of any population of humans who will keep the concept of god and a higher being. These are not just low IQ people.

Spirituality and religion are related but not to be confused with each other.
IMO religion is a form of spirituality for the stupid.


It’s worth reviewing some definitions I cherry picked on the subject of religion, science, and spirituality. Religion is the belief in and worship of a higher power in complete trust or confidence of faith. Atheism is the disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods. Agnostic is a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God. Mysticism is the belief that union with or absorption into the absolute, or the spiritual apprehension of knowledge inaccessible to the intellect, may be attained through contemplation and self-surrender.

Philosophy is the self-awareness of meaning in the study of the science of meaning. Theology is the study of belief in a higher power. Science is the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment. Spirituality tells us how we should be in relationship to the way things are. Spiritualities include philosophical explanations of the world.

I have done comparative study of all of the above in my personal quest for meaning. I am mostly an agnostic mystic. My adapted definition for this term hybridization is in regards to I neither claim absolute faith or disbelief in a higher power. I am open to contemplation and self-surrender into a higher power greater than my ego. My quest for meaning has become an eclectic enjoyment embracing many different spiritualities and scientific studies. I stress enjoyment because I delight in being an agnostic mystic and in some ways this allows me to experience a variety of persuasions at the same time without being prejudice.

At this point in human history I find system science is called for to determine the way forward:
“Systems Science: systems science is the science of understanding how the world works. it is at the core of every other science. Given our energy and material consumption, and governance of our systems will we be able to sustain all life for the long-run. The Human Condition: the human brain has evolved , our capacity to share abstract/conceptual information, and our ability to cooperate in complex ways have advanced us to dominate the Ecos. but, should we confiscate nature to our selfish purposes? Do we have the wisdom to find a balance between our own desires, and the good for the whole earth?”
https://questioneverything.typepad.com/about.html

I have avoided specialization and tend to find generalization advantageous to the understanding of the how and why of life in today’s hyper specialized world. I am an expert in nothing but have enjoyed dipping into many different ways of looking at life. I find system science my home these days and especially in the quest of a new wisdom to guide humans into a macro succession of both the planet and human society. This definition by George Mobus hits home for me because I feel at this point in human history man must learn limits to growth of his material world but also his quest for knowledge:
“Knowledge of systemness is the hardest won knowledge there is. It includes not just ordinary knowledge, but wisdom as well - the knowledge of what ordinary knowledge to gain and how to use it.”

I feel humans are at a critical juncture of meaning right now. This is also a journey into a new planetary reality of human change both constructive and destructive. I say constructive because this may be a time of human advancement to something higher than what there is today because of the immense amount of knowledge accumulated or it may be a digression towards our savage side. Probably both will occur and our own extinction is not out of the question. This time in human history will be the realization of the consequences of this quest to know all that will have to be dealt with for long term survival. The consequences are for our species and the web of life this overshoot is impacting on a planet in decline because of this overshoot.
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