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The "Planet of the Humans" documentary thread

Re: The "Planet of the Humans" documentary thread

Unread postby evilgenius » Tue 28 Apr 2020, 14:14:41

JuanP wrote:
evilgenius wrote:But you can use renewables to pump water uphill, from where it is plentiful. From the top of the hill it can flow down, all the way across the country. Along the way, it can flow through I don't know how many turbines. All you need is a plumbing system designed to respond to the vagaries of climate change. It would use the water being transferred to also make power.


It takes more energy to pump water up than you can make from it coming down, otherwise all water dams would be capable of generating continuous energy forever. I think it has something to do with the Second Law of Thermodynamics, and inevitable energy losses in every use of energy. IIRC pumped water storage and energy generating systems are about 80% efficient, so there is around a 20% loss in potential energy every time you cycle the water up and down. These systems are useful under certain circumstances as energy storage systems, but they do not generate energy. In Uruguay we use them to pump water up on hydroelectric dams when we have excess amounts of wind energy available, but there are inevitable losses in every energy transformation so you end up with less total energy available for consumption, not more. They are useful to balance demand and supply, though, in the few locations where they are viable.


I think you are talking about that scheme where they pump water uphill, only to use it to create power in a closed system. Those systems essentially use the same water over and over again. I'm talking about using a solar or wind farm to pump water from a side of the country where it is plentiful to a high point, where it would flow downhill for thousands of miles. The US is like that. They could pump water from the Great Lakes region to a point where it could flow downhill to the plains. Only in certain places would it need to be lifted again, and not that far, for it to be another few thousand miles to Phoenix. At each storage location, above the next turbine, the water could be controlled, so that it only flows when the grid needs it to balance up and down renewable loads.

And why do critics of renewable energy go on about fossil fuels as if they were the only way to melt steel? An electric arc can be powered by any electrical power source. Energy can come from alternatives for everything from transport to manufacturing. You can even make plastic from corn. Yes, you can't fertilize the ground with alternatives, but that's really only one of a few things that don't have substitutes. That is, except for all of that biomass people would rather burn than sow into the ground.

What this movie is really saying, if I look honestly at their worries, is that if we wait too long and try to do this in a rush we won't make it. Because that's when finding what the substitutes are would take too long. Either that, or it is a backyard chickens masturbation fest. God save us from those backyard chicken folks, and their love affair with powering down and death. Yes, fear of death does have a place in the machinations of this movie. In the absence of doing it right, powering down is all that's left. They are scared of death. Their way of dealing with it is to give up, er make peace with it.

The real fear is we will treat the energy crisis like the pandemic, and address it on a daily and piecemeal basis rather than with a plan. That does seem like a legitimate fear. Markets may be truth finders, but their truth finding capability is limited to what the players in the market know. Mostly, they know they have to make money. This is a management issue. Nobody would have said before the pandemic that the US would respond with the worst sort of response, delaying and denying until they couldn't. Or that nobody was thinking about it, even though so many warned it might happen, and there was no stocking up on the things you can't get in a hurry when you need lots of them quickly. The same can be said for not going civilization style big in our efforts to overcome this.
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Re: The "Planet of the Humans" documentary thread

Unread postby sparky » Tue 28 Apr 2020, 15:43:49

.
what matter is not the distance , it's the raise in height

in fact having one big rise followed by plenty of small drop would be totally inefficient from a power point of view
and I'm not even considering the losses ,or the humungously huge investment of the infrastructure

this would be a high school fail ,
thermodynamic and power management have very strict laws which have to be obeyed

pumped water storage don't use "the same water "necessarily" , it's an open system ,
any feed water will do fine , such as a river
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Re: The "Planet of the Humans" documentary thread

Unread postby evilgenius » Tue 28 Apr 2020, 16:02:25

sparky wrote:.
what matter is not the distance , it's the raise in height

in fact having one big rise followed by plenty of small drop would be totally inefficient from a power point of view
and I'm not even considering the losses ,or the humungously huge investment of the infrastructure

this would be a high school fail ,
thermodynamic and power management have very strict laws which have to be obeyed

pumped water storage don't use "the same water "necessarily" , it's an open system ,
any feed water will do fine , such as a river

Yeah, and over any rise in height you get variations. The western half of America is full of them. Every time you go uphill, you can do it with wind or solar. So, where is the loss? Manufacturing? Maintenance? Damns silt up. Maybe the climate will change so much that there is no more water in the east? But the plan is for a grid of pipes to deal with transferring water. So the grid might pump where water is needed, from wherever it is. It's not like I've studied where to put the parts of the system. I just know that we aren't running out of gravity very soon. The cost would be humongous. That's sort of my point. You can't do renewables with the idea that you can power yourself entirely with your own excrement. This isn't a perpetual motion scheme on the order of the things the film depicted. But people don't listen to me. It's written in the cards.
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Re: The "Planet of the Humans" documentary thread

Unread postby REAL Green » Tue 28 Apr 2020, 17:46:11

evilgenius wrote: Yeah, and over any rise in height you get variations. The western half of America is full of them. Every time you go uphill, you can do it with wind or solar. So, where is the loss?


The loss is the other kind and that is return on investment of the long distance water scheme running on wind. The intermittency would be an issue to moving water great distances I imagine.

evilgenius wrote: Manufacturing? Maintenance? Damns silt up. Maybe the climate will change so much that there is no more water in the east? But the plan is for a grid of pipes to deal with transferring water. So the grid might pump where water is needed, from wherever it is.


I doubt there will ever be any schemes to transfer water across country in any direction anymore. The cost of just buying out landowners is huge. The economic benefit dubious. This is not China where they can rearrange drainage systems to get water to the people. I would think a cheaper money pit would be wind and solar running desal plants. They might be able to make up a system to treat waste water with wind and solar as power. As far as water goes everywhere is water stressed to some degree. I realize it can be done. I am not a fan of large engineering projects at this point in history the better course of action is learning to do with less. IMO.
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Re: The "Planet of the Humans" documentary thread

Unread postby C8 » Tue 28 Apr 2020, 23:07:22

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Re: The "Planet of the Humans" documentary thread

Unread postby C8 » Tue 28 Apr 2020, 23:12:43

A look at some of the issues not covered in the film and some of the questions raised. Interesting stuff about just the sheer amount of land being necessary for renewable energy and how the actually seeing it happen is off putting people

nine minute interview

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... e=emb_logo
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Re: The "Planet of the Humans" documentary thread

Unread postby dolanbaker » Wed 29 Apr 2020, 15:03:15

Having just watched the entire film, it's sad to say there were few surprises in it for me.
All I really learned was the names of the individuals who are pulling the strings.
The infinite growth on a finite planet was being shown in all of its Gore and Blood in fact it has really upset the elite and their supporters.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... taken-down

A new Michael Moore-produced documentary that takes aim at the supposed hypocrisy of the green movement is “dangerous, misleading and destructive” and should be removed from public viewing, according to an assortment of climate scientists and environmental campaigners.


This film must be really dangerous if the Guardian's owners want to try and kill it off.
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Re: The "Planet of the Humans" documentary thread

Unread postby C8 » Wed 29 Apr 2020, 15:35:17

dolanbaker wrote:Having just watched the entire film, it's sad to say there were few surprises in it for me.
All I really learned was the names of the individuals who are pulling the strings.
The infinite growth on a finite planet was being shown in all of its Gore and Blood in fact it has really upset the elite and their supporters.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... taken-down

A new Michael Moore-produced documentary that takes aim at the supposed hypocrisy of the green movement is “dangerous, misleading and destructive” and should be removed from public viewing, according to an assortment of climate scientists and environmental campaigners.


This film must be really dangerous if the Guardian's owners want to try and kill it off.


It won't be long before You Tube is successfully pressured to ban it. That's why I wanted folks here to view it while they can, as soon as they can. Some very powerful people are getting pissed off.
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Re: The "Planet of the Humans" documentary thread

Unread postby REAL Green » Wed 29 Apr 2020, 17:25:35

C8 wrote:It won't be long before You Tube is successfully pressured to ban it. That's why I wanted folks here to view it while they can, as soon as they can. Some very powerful people are getting pissed off.


This drives home the point why renewables won't work and that is becuase behavior is not being adapted. Renewables are more about a new political power than a planet saver. It is about techno optimism’s lie of having your cake (save the planet) and eating it (affluence). These techno optimists may be honest about the science of the problem but they are dead wrong on the solutions. What part of a catch 22 carbon trap don’t fake greens get? The only way to save the planet is a change to behavior. A change to behavior will then use proper tech or not use tech to achieve good for humans and the planet. Actually, it is less tech, consumption, and population that will save the planet. Since that is not any party’s platform this means nothing out there today will work.
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Re: The "Planet of the Humans" documentary thread

Unread postby evilgenius » Wed 29 Apr 2020, 17:57:16

I've been thinking about the doing with less thing too. My resistance to the notion that you can't do renewables doesn't come from wanting to keep up the status quo, however. It comes from wanting to preserve human life.

Backyard chickens is like when you watch a science fiction show and the protagonists visit some highly advanced, but still living in a primitive village culture. They are comfortable with those folks visiting who don't bother to churn butter. They shrug at them, and go back to churning butter. You are supposed to understand they've figured something out. But the show is about the visitors, and how strange these alien worlds are.
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Re: The "Planet of the Humans" documentary thread

Unread postby REAL Green » Wed 29 Apr 2020, 18:38:06

evilgenius wrote:I've been thinking about the doing with less thing too. My resistance to the notion that you can't do renewables doesn't come from wanting to keep up the status quo, however. It comes from wanting to preserve human life.


Good point but consider that it is only to a point. At a certain point human life is not going to be preserved with or without renewables. So green or brown growth are wrong. When there is the acceptance of failure with or without them what happens instead is they will be used as needed to reduce the failure. If the planetary trend is a declining wave of activity then it is advantageous to emulate less. In this case less becomes more by virtue of creating a wisdom that actually is the “more” because of value instead of quantity. It is a metaphysical not a physical condition although once a reality is understood physical results occur meaning more and better things are possible within a wisdom of less. So, preserving life to lose life is not preserving it if we are in a declining wave. If the situation is life is going to be lost regardless then the result is choosing the best of bad options which is all too apparent these days with covid and that is triage. Less is a fundamental in a world in decline but a less that creates more is possible. It is about proper scaling that creates more with the more being value not quantity. The value being the truth. That sounds like word salad because it is but remember we are describing a complex system that appears to be in phase change.
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Re: The "Planet of the Humans" documentary thread

Unread postby C8 » Thu 30 Apr 2020, 01:36:46

There is probably not much money to be made with conservation. Growing renewable energy holds out the potential for giant profits and subsidies. There are billionaires to want in on the action and see this as the next wave. There are others who see it as a fad to be scammed before it crashes.

One this for certain, things always change. If better energy sources come along then windmills and solar farms will be abandoned as the companies go bankrupt. The more we build renewable energy, the greater the damage will be as it is left behind- America will become covered will miles and miles of junk. It will be our most disastrous experiment.
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Re: The "Planet of the Humans" documentary thread

Unread postby REAL Green » Thu 30 Apr 2020, 07:50:14

C8 wrote:There is probably not much money to be made with conservation. Growing renewable energy holds out the potential for giant profits and subsidies. There are billionaires to want in on the action and see this as the next wave. There are others who see it as a fad to be scammed before it crashes.


Yeap, and this is why I tell people to start doing it individually or at least realize that individual and local is the only way to realize a personal meaning to conservation. The world is not very interested in conservation until it all breaks down then the finger pointing starts and the mad scramble to get the pants on. There is plenty of talk about conservation but not in their back yard. The other side of this predicament is we are carbon trapped and path dependent with what got us here. The result is a population too large and a consumption profile too much for a healthy planet. This means if you kill the billionaire and loot the corporation to get things right don’t expect to get fed. There is a way to mitigate this but obviously not an easy sell. Something hybrid needs to be developed as a pathway to something else but first acceptance of failure is needed green and brown. That is not going to happen so we have FAKE Green and Trump Brown type policy fighting it out in derangement. Neither will work but they both could be merged somehow to make things less bad. Instead it will be a muddle like a drug addict on another drug to deal with a drug.
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Re: The Green New Deal and the Growth of Renewables

Unread postby MonteQuest » Fri 01 May 2020, 12:13:20

Here is Michael Moore's new movie "Planet of the Humans." Moore exposes the hype surrounding renewable energy and just how dependent it is on fossil fuels. The massive effort to gag Planet of the Humans reveals something very sinister: the refusal by leading climate activists and academics to have an honest discussion about the limits of renewable energy and why renewables alone cannot save us from climate change or solve the problem of energy poverty.

https://planetofthehumans.com/
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Re: The "Planet of the Humans" documentary thread

Unread postby dissident » Fri 01 May 2020, 14:03:54

One has to wonder at the self-inflicted blindness of all these self-anointed do-gooders when nuclear is totally ignored. So either it is fossil fuels or solar panels and windmills (plus tidal or some other tech) and nothing else. A BS false dichotomy if there ever was one. Germany represents this insanity with its choice of coal over nuclear because of Fukushima. Yeah, order 9 earthquakes and tidal waves are a problem in Germany. But then, even in Fukushima, 100% of the fault goes to the idiots who put the backup generators in the basement (as per the original GE design) instead of adapting their placement for local conditions like using the hill right behind the plant.

But do-gooders do not deserve the time of day with explanations about risk of nuclear power. Coal and oil have killed millions through air quality impacts alone. To bootstrap alternatives requires the existing power network to be around for many years to come. So the do-gooders will force the use of fossil fuels to satiate their paranoid delusions. Instead of converting to truly green nuclear power to provide the baseload and the energy for manufacture of solar panels and windmills. And don't yap about fossil fuels being necessary to deploy nuclear. Obviously the existing power sources are necessary to start anything. The point is that with nuclear the transition period is short enough that fossil fuels can be dropped altogether. The amount of fossil fuels burned for the whims of do-gooders will be vastly more than any transition to nuclear power.
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Re: The "Planet of the Humans" documentary thread

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 01 May 2020, 14:50:37

dissident wrote:
But do-gooders do not deserve the time of day with explanations about risk of nuclear power. Coal and oil have killed millions through air quality impacts alone. To bootstrap alternatives requires the existing power network to be around for many years to come. So the do-gooders will force the use of fossil fuels to satiate their paranoid delusions. Instead of converting to truly green nuclear power to provide the baseload and the energy for manufacture of solar panels and windmills. And don't yap about fossil fuels being necessary to deploy nuclear. Obviously the existing power sources are necessary to start anything. The point is that with nuclear the transition period is short enough that fossil fuels can be dropped altogether. The amount of fossil fuels burned for the whims of do-gooders will be vastly more than any transition to nuclear power.



Do-gooders are part of the problem but don't scape goat them either. There is a more formidable foe to nuclear energy that has far more power and money than do-gooders......... the fossil fuel industry

https://atomicinsights.com/how-importan ... -movement/

https://www.world-nuclear-news.org/V-Gl ... 05171.html

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kensilvers ... 3a02d57453

Since nuclear energy is the only source of energy even remotely possible to scale up as a replacement to fossil fuels the oil industry had to kill it.

Of course the oil industry left solar and wind alone because they knew from the beginning that neither would represent any threat in being able to scale up and compete.

Do-gooders and anti nuke environmentalists are just pawns, the narrative against nuclear energy since 30 years has been orchestrated and manipulated by the oil industry.
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Re: The "Planet of the Humans" documentary thread

Unread postby C8 » Fri 01 May 2020, 15:23:05

Ibon wrote:Do-gooders and anti nuke environmentalists are just pawns, the narrative against nuclear energy since 30 years has been orchestrated and manipulated by the oil industry.


It probably has always been this way through history. I'll bet there were many around who knew what the real problems were during the time before the collapse of the Roman empire. But the special interests shut down the debate and continued enriching themselves. The Egyptians, Greeks, Assyrians, Chinese, Aztecs, Incas, Ottomans, etc. etc. I'm sure very logical people in each of those places and ages were saddened to find that their good arguments had no effect on the downward spiral of their empires.
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Re: The "Planet of the Humans" documentary thread

Unread postby JuanP » Fri 01 May 2020, 15:54:18

Being perfectly aware of all the costs and consequences, I believe, that at this point in time, we should use all forms of energy available to us. If I believed we still had time to stop runaway Global Weirding and Climate Change, I would be against using fossil fuels, but, IMO, that ship sailed decades ago. I used to be against them, but not anymore. Based on our current population of almost 8 billion and our current population growth of over 80 million a year, I believe that people who think this can still end well are deluding themselves. It is too late and there is great freedom in accepting that human nature will prevail and make the biosphere uninhabitable for our species. We will burn every last leaf and blade of grass until there is absolutely nothing left to burn. I would love to be proven wrong, but I don't expect it to happen; the trend is clear and the momentum is too strong.
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Re: The "Planet of the Humans" documentary thread

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 01 May 2020, 16:48:44

I watched this film last night, and I was just amazed. There it was....just what I've been saying at this site for years. It felt so good to see this film...

The film lays out how Al Gore, Obama, Bill McKibben, EV car manufacturers and others at the national level dissembled about climate change, and how corporate interests including local utilies, the Koch brothers, and some local greens connive together to promote installation of solar and wind power sites that really do very little to stop climate change. The film explores how so-called renewable energy is actually based on an industrial base that requires fossil fuels, and how some so-called renewable energy sources use fossil fuels directly.

One of the most hilarious segments shows an EV car spokesperson who can't quite understand that electricity doesn't spontaneously come from a plug. Her expression when the interviewer tells her there are coal-fired power plants providing the electricity for her EV is p r i c e l e s s !!!

The film also explores how the Obama administrations push to close old coal power plants led to the construction of much bigger NG power plants, and conveniently ignored the fact that NG is also a fossil fuel and also ignored the fact that CH4 is a much more powerful greenhouse gas then CO2 and ignored the fact that more and more CH4 is being released every year due to fracking for NG need to power the switchover from coal to NG.

The film's main message is that solar and wind and NG power plants are basically being used as "greenwashing" by corporation and politicians who pretend they care about climate change, but actually are just typical corporate hacks doing things that make climate change worse.

I thought the film was G R E A T !!!!!!

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See it now on Youtube before the corporate interests and the greenies combine to get it taken down.

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Re: The "Planet of the Humans" documentary thread

Unread postby asg70 » Fri 01 May 2020, 23:43:29

Plantagenet wrote:There it was....just what I've been saying at this site for years.


I await your movie: Planet of the Frequent Flyers,

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-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
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