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Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 22

Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 22

Unread postby Ibon » Mon 22 Jun 2020, 08:19:13

dohboi wrote:consumption roughly tracks wealth. that has been the conclusion of every environmental footprint study since the the idea first arose.



This is why I have always said that the middle class in aggregate are far more egregious consumers then the uber rich. Look at China or India and consider automobile sales from 1985 until 2020. The largest migration story in the history of our species is when over 400 million agrarian peasants in China left their rural subsistence farming lifestyles in the mid 80's and migrated to urban areas during the past 25 years employed in factories. From walking to bicycles to mopeds to automobiles was the evolution of transportation mode on the urban streets for hundreds of millions during this time.

The Uber rich per capita can consume all they want on steroids and already book their flights as passengers on next years SpaceX tourism to orbit the earth but they will never compete in consumption to the aggregate total consumption of the planets middle class.

This is why I have also said that the most efficient way to cut carbon emissions is to return to the historical norm of civilization prior to the oil age when a small tiny elite rule over economically impoverished serfs.

Allowing access to wealth to a huge middle class resulted in the most devastating environmental damage ever done to our planet by our species.

Why this truth is so disconcerting to internalize and accept is that most of these middle class consumers are far more humble and far better human beings as individuals over the socio pathological personalities of the uber rich.

So for Dohboi and many others it is really hard to accept this. Even for me. But that damn sword of wisdom is just so bright sometimes it burns through the misty idealism of what I would like to be true and forces me to see what really is true.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 22

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 22 Jun 2020, 09:09:15

Who sets up the conditions of middle class consumption, promotes it at every turn, and profit vast sums from it?

::::::::

I thought you might like some of the points from that article, RG

As for the grave threats to the very rich if they choose to be less than very rich...you seemed to walk away from that supposed death trap relatively unscathed. As did JK Rowling, the first person, as I recall to voluntarily stop being a billionaire by means of giving her wealth away to those who needed it more.

So there are models, but yeah, ultimately its the wealth and consumption system that need to go. Very high rates of taxing, a cap on wealth, and a 'maximum wage' (just as there is a minimum wage) might be elements of what that system might look like. But it also means a change of culture.

All of these prompt the old question--"who will bell the cat?" The wealthy hold nearly all the levers of power. Legislation that goes directly against their interests rarely if ever goes through in the US, while any legislation that, no matter how good it is for the vast majority, isn't to the advantage of the super rich, also rarely gets through.

You get lots of push back even here, where people have been flooded with information about what's at stake. We (and especially the wealthy) have placed a viable earth and wealth on the scales and have chosen wealth (whatever that would even mean on a non-viable earth).
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 22

Unread postby Ibon » Mon 22 Jun 2020, 09:36:05

dohboi wrote:Who sets up the conditions of middle class consumption, promotes it at every turn, and profit vast sums from it?


The most revolutionary act a citizen can do today is to cut their personal consumption to curtail the wealth pump that moves upwards allowing the uber rich their enormous wealth. I understood this when I was 20 years old already 40 years ago when I rejected consumption culture. My personal values are not shared by the vast majority. I represent a choice that only 1 in maybe 10,000 choose to make. Does that make me special? Unfortunately Yes.

The problem I have seen in these past 40 years is the willingness of the vast majority of the planets middle class to be duped by the advertising and social engineering done by those sociopaths in power. That willingness to be satisfied with the mediocrity of consumption culture does not allow me to focus the source of the problem on those in power. It has forced me to accept that by nature the vast majority will follow what the priests, politicians and business executives dictate as to how you live your life. This truth has been the template that has never changed since the dawn of civilization.

So the only way forward to mitigate the worst of the environmental impacts heading our way is to reduce the middle class back down to impoverished serfs.

By the way most impoverished serfs lived happier lives and had greater well being than your average middle class citizen today who is harnessed in horrific unfulfilling jobs and who compensate this misery with life style habits that keep them in a state of a catatonic compliance to the puppet masters. Compensating their indebted entrapments with increased consumption, obesity, drug abuse. Very very few break out and self actualize toward serving others, using their muscle power to grow gardens, communing deeply with mother nature, sacrificing for the commons, etc.

Dohboi, you want to blame this on the uber rich?

Good riddance to the middle class, the sooner the better.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 22

Unread postby asg70 » Mon 22 Jun 2020, 09:49:27

Ibon wrote:that damn sword of wisdom is just so bright sometimes it burns through the misty idealism of what I would like to be true and forces me to see what really is true.


Be careful. All that patting yourself on the back will give you a bruise.


Ibon wrote:My personal values are not shared by the vast majority. I represent a choice that only 1 in maybe 10,000 choose to make. Does that make me special? Unfortunately Yes.


Your lifestyle still relies on the discretionary spending and corresponding carbon emissions of your patrons. There's no free-ride unless you want to put on that no-impact-man hairshirt, Ibon.

Ibon wrote:So the only way forward to mitigate the worst of the environmental impacts heading our way is to reduce the middle class back down to impoverished serfs....the way most impoverished serfs lived happier lives


Says someone who claims to be, at heart, a classic liberal.

Ibon wrote:Good riddance to the middle class, the sooner the better.


I'm starting to believe that your only purpose here is to get a rise out of people.

Look, you benefited from the system all your life until you had enough FU money to pivot your lifestyle. I wouldn't attack you if you didn't keep congratulating yourself for abstaining from wealth that you already benefited from through the majority of your life and continue to benefit from---indirectly. You've basically outsourced a lot of your consumption to subsidize your rainforest lifestyle. So you're really not in any position to lord over the world and tell us all to live like serfs. You didn't really live that way and you still don't so it's do as I say, not as I do. That you came to resent the standard american mindset doesn't change the fact you went along with it and cashed the check and now cash THEIR checks to subsidize your lifestyle. The planet doesn't really care how people feel, only how they act and you're not as special as you think you are.

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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 22

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 22 Jun 2020, 10:24:10

There is plenty of blame to go around, Ib, but yeah, I have this curious notion that with greater power (and wealth is of course, among other things, power) comes greater responsibility.

Apparently you have a different ethos.

::::::::

RG: Before you post any further, you need to first read each any every one of my 19,207 former posts on this forum!










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:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 22

Unread postby REAL Green » Mon 22 Jun 2020, 10:42:25

dohboi wrote:Who sets up the conditions of middle class consumption, promotes it at every turn, and profit vast sums from it? I thought you might like some of the points from that article, RG).


I know my comment to you was long winded but I did mention that problem with the rich. They have the system rigged so change is very difficult. But my point is from a purely animal consumption POV they don’t consume much. The corporations they control do but that includes thousands of people in a network of people and machines.

dohboi wrote:As for the grave threats to the very rich if they choose to be less than very rich...you seemed to walk away from that supposed death trap relatively unscathed. As did JK Rowling, the first person, as I recall to voluntarily stop being a billionaire by means of giving her wealth away to those who needed it more. ).


I didn’t like the lifestyle I was heading in and I didn’t want to waste a portion of my life caught up in that to get very wealthy. I got out and now I do permaculture. I still enjoy some of the perks of a wealthy family. The thing about the rich they have some protection from a decline or collpase but if they lose their support base, they will fall very hard. The skills needed when you don’t have money both with mentality and talents puts them in grave risk. I think this is why some of the very rich can’t change. The fear factor is there.

dohboi wrote:So there are models, but yeah, ultimately its the wealth and consumption system that need to go. Very high rates of taxing, a cap on wealth, and a 'maximum wage' (just as there is a minimum wage) might be elements of what that system might look like. But it also means a change of culture. ).


This is where we differ some. It is fine if you were the leader and you wanted to make these changes but my POV is we are in a trap so all you are doing is moving around the deck chairs on the sinking ship. Redistribution of overshoot is still overshoot. From a social POV there are many things that need to be done to make life fairer but remember there is consequences. In this global world wealth can migrate to a nation who does not punish them. There are no easy fixes or this would have been solved years ago.

dohboi wrote:All of these prompt the old question--"who will bell the cat?" The wealthy hold nearly all the levers of power. Legislation that goes directly against their interests rarely if ever goes through in the US, while any legislation that, no matter how good it is for the vast majority, isn't to the advantage of the super rich, also rarely gets through. ).


Yea, this is the nature of moral hazard in late stage capitalism. Change becomes brittle so the change that results is destructive change. It seems to happen to all civilizations eventually. My POV is quit fighting it as an individual and get with modifying what you can for the decline and or collpase. I am mid 50’s so maybe I will get lucky and not see collpase but collpase is more likely for my 12-year old’s likely. I am doing things I hope will help them out when that day comes.

dohboi wrote:You get lots of push back even here, where people have been flooded with information about what's at stake. We (and especially the wealthy) have placed a viable earth and wealth on the scales and have chosen wealth (whatever that would even mean on a non-viable earth).


We differ somewhat here. I say practice Green behavior but get out of the Fake Green behavior in believing there are fixes beyond the margins. This is a trap we can mitigate and adapt to some but that is it. There are consequences for bad behavior and our payback is coming. All of us with the rich included. The planet will take car of the trap. Unfortunately, this will eventually be bad for humans. I am not saying don’t’ do anything. I am practicing extreme conservation. I drive as little as possible. I have solar. I waste next to no food. I produce food. I enhance nature. I am building up a monastery of things and knowledge for those who come after me. This is in my on little way on how to use the best of the old with the modern to be more green which I call REAL Green which is essentially realistic green in an existential trap.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 22

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 22 Jun 2020, 10:55:52

Thanks for your efforts, RG.

Again, I don't think that we are really very far apart on most issues.

Thanks for your posts, and my apologies if I didn't get to every sentence.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 22

Unread postby GHung » Mon 22 Jun 2020, 11:28:31

Temperatures in an Arctic Siberian town hit 100 degrees, a new high

An unprecedented heatwave in one of the coldest places on Earth just reached a distressing milestone.
Temperatures in the small Siberian town of Verkhoyansk hit 100.4 degrees Fahrenheit on Saturday, according to public-facing weather data. It's a record-high temperature in one of the fastest-warming places in the world.
Siberia tends to experience large swings in temperature month-to-month and year-to-year, according to the Copernicus Climate Change Service (C3S), a program affiliated with the European Commission. But it's unusual for warmer-than-average temperatures to continue for so long -- temperatures in Siberia have stayed well-above average since 2019.
Verkhoyansk sits on the Yana River in the Arctic Circle and, during the winter, is considered one of the world's coldest towns -- in 1892, temperatures dropped to -90 degrees Fahrenheit.

Average June temperatures in Verkhoyansk reach a high of 68 degrees Fahrenheit, so the new record-high temperature is alarming. .......
https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/22/weather/ ... index.html


At our home in western NC we haven't reached 87 F yet this year. Climate predictions for our area have suggested that we would see warmer winters and cooler summers, with higher than average precipitation, going forward. Those predictions have been spot on for the last 4 years. Historical average yearly precip is @65 inches. The last 2 years have all seen 75+ inches, and this year (as of this morning) we are just shy of 50". At this rate we'll be pushing 100 inches by year's end.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 22

Unread postby Ibon » Mon 22 Jun 2020, 13:30:30

dohboi wrote:There is plenty of blame to go around, Ib, but yeah, I have this curious notion that with greater power (and wealth is of course, among other things, power) comes greater responsibility.

Apparently you have a different ethos.


It's not me Dohboi that has a different ethos. It is the filthy rich. I am only empirically describing the reality and you are shooting the messenger.

As a privileged fairly wealthy individual (still a small fish) I have embraced taking greater responsibility in how we ethically treat our workers, how we are restoring and preserving habitat, how our consumption is at a minimum. Outside of my historical use of air travel for business and recreation my consumption habits are pretty bare minimum. I am mostly a luddite and my material consumption outside of fancy binoculars can be described as miserly!

One day I can discuss with JuanP an optimistic scenario how the young emerging generation will inherit power and confront social and environmental inequities and the very next day I can post about returning to a small elite and elimination of the middle class with a return to impoverished serfs.

That I can post such different points of view is not a testimonial of my schizoid world view it is rather throwing out there these streams of thoughts that create an internal conflict. I admit that there is a tug of war going on inside me regarding future trajectory. Both the more dystopian and the more optimistic viewpoints seem likely and valid and I think it is good to have the courage to give these thoughts airtime and throw others a little bit out of their comfort zones to places their ethical boundaries usually don't allow them to go.

There is no denying the logic of my post regarding the vast majority of the middle class being complacent to the way they are being socially engineered by the wealthy. And there is no denying that the prospect of the very wealthy who got their often by being sociopaths are not going to be converting over to enlightened social responsibility anytime soon. The patterns of behavior of the uber wealthy and the middle class have stayed so locked in, this leads to a logical conclusion going forward to heal the ecological damage and take the middle class back down to serfdom.

Dohboi, every social revolution from the womens movement, civil rights, work place reform, environmentalism has always succeeded pushing and demanding and demonstrating from the bottom up and fighting the established power structure. Reform always happens with the oppressed rising against the oppressors. You are suggesting that the wealthy have to take responsibility. I say bullshit, it never has worked that way, reform always comes from the bottom fighting and demanding it. Well if the middle class stay complacent in their mediocrity of consumption and in aggregate they remain the most egregious consumers and if they refuse any efforts of real reform then please tell me how we are going to generate a social movement from this segment of our society who have no desire to change? Or how you are going to get the uber wealthy to take greater responsibility without the push from below?
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 22

Unread postby Ibon » Mon 22 Jun 2020, 13:37:46

asg70 wrote: ..............and you're not as special as you think you are.


Oh yes I am. I willfully chose a path that only one in a million choose. I don't pat myself on the back about this. But I acknowledge it.

I am one of those wealthy that Dohboi claims needs to take more social responsibility.

Where the fuck are all the others?

At this moment it really is only 1 in maybe 100,000 who choose to voluntarily exit the world of commerce, stop gathering nuts, and invest the majority of their net worth in activities that at most break even as they restore natural ecosystems. Tourism dollars don't personally enrich me as an owner of this private reserve but those dollars do permit us to achieve economic sustainability in preserving this place and training local staff in conservation.

Have you read about how poaching has skyrocketed since eco tourists stopped travelling to protected areas since the pandemic. Just another egregious result of lockdown by the way! ?

I am a very special human ASG and I have not met many like me. I wish there were more.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 22

Unread postby REAL Green » Mon 22 Jun 2020, 14:02:18

I feel special too but for me it is more a blessing. Since I have been blessed I feel humbled. This humility of being blessed when others are not motivates me to planetary and human health efforts. I feel the planet is moving within me with special powers of vision. These powers are the planets so they must not be used selfishly. The things I talk about are not mine and as such are the planets. The planet is speaking these things through me and my imperfections. I am a modern day shaman. You can laugh at me and ridicule me I don’t care. I am still plenty human with my demons and failures but I have given myself over to the planet and it’s betterment. Since I am human the best I can do is try to harm it less. I do this relatively based upon the localism of my people and place. I am now awakened to a paradigm shift of succession. I am declining in place building a monastery of knowledge and things to pass on. If nothing else a eccentric estate sale. Lol
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 22

Unread postby Ibon » Mon 22 Jun 2020, 15:20:54

REAL Green wrote: I feel the planet is moving within me with special powers of vision. These powers are the planets so they must not be used selfishly. The things I talk about are not mine and as such are the planets.


Brother Real Green has the sword of wisdom.

Years ago I was posting here quite often that our over population and consumption is foremost a spiritual deficit in not holding our mother earth with reverence.

When you hold our mother earth with reverence those middle class consumers blindly munching away at the resource sinks can be vilified and demonized and they can become much like the way religious people view the infidels. This is an important first step in compartmentalizing your compassion directing it to our mother earth, our imperiled flora and fauna and to those fellow brethren among us humans who feel the presence of our mother earth front and center in our souls.

The rest of humanity can then be prioritized at a lesser value. No need to do them any harm but also no need to expend resources their way. Allow for natural consequences to winnow through the population eventually converting some over to reverence toward our planet. Allow for policies that further expand the disparity of wealth in order to cut off consumption capabilities of this sector of society. Allow those who don't adapt to perish with a cultural orientation that has no future. In fighting social inequities I do not want to see a redistribution of wealth to a population that does not hold our mother earth in reverence. Better to curtail their access to resources.

I don't waste any time or compassion at this late stage in human overshoot toward humans blind and indifferent to our imperiled mother earth. They are not worthy.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 22

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 22 Jun 2020, 19:19:05

You're a big hearted guy, Ib! :lol: :lol: :lol:

I'm sure the super rich will be greatly comforted by your support! :o :o :o

Meanwhile, back on the troubled planet earth:

Arctic records its hottest temperature ever

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/arctic-hot ... ture-ever/
Alarming heat scorched Siberia on Saturday as the small town of Verkhoyansk (67.5°N latitude) reached 100.4 degrees Fahrenheit (38 C), 32 degrees above the normal high temperature.

If verified, this is likely the hottest temperature ever recorded in Siberia and also the hottest temperature ever recorded north of the Arctic Circle, which begins at 66.5°N.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 22

Unread postby REAL Green » Mon 22 Jun 2020, 19:28:03

dohboi wrote:Thanks for your efforts, RG. Again, I don't think that we are really very far apart on most issues. Thanks for your posts, and my apologies if I didn't get to every sentence.


Dohboi, we are close with our positions. I am always open to new thinking as the latest data presents itself. I think one difference is you still have some anger and you are not ready to accept all is lost. I am in acceptance and now focusing on lifeboats and hospices. Neither postion is right or wrong it is just where we are at. If some profound changes occur, I may shift more towards an attitude of positive change could save us. I enjoy very much our conversations and have very high respect for the spirit of your debate. You love the planet and you want fairness. These are noble causes
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 22

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 22 Jun 2020, 20:55:14

No, all is, indeed lost.

I accepted that years ago.

But maybe it's the Irish in me (of which I have none I know of :-D ), but I find lost causes to often be the ones most worth fighting for.

I similarly came to the conclusion that the best case would be planetary hospice...probably about ten years ago...I used those very words in fact to a shocked colleague.

Oh, and Ib, I was only 15 when I figured out that following wealth was not going to be my path...quite the opposite. What took you so long?? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 22

Unread postby Ibon » Mon 22 Jun 2020, 21:12:58

dohboi wrote:
Oh, and Ib, I was only 15 when I figured out that following wealth was not going to be my path...quite the opposite. What took you so long?? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


The minute I had my foot in the door of making some good money I was already planning my exit strategy with a vision to do what I am doing today. I was in it but not of it since day one. Never bought a new car, always used, never had a penny of credit card debt or any debt of any kind except a mortgage which I always paid off early . I was still buying clothes in thrift shops well after having earned my first million.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 22

Unread postby jawagord » Tue 23 Jun 2020, 21:18:39

dohboi wrote:You're a big hearted guy, Ib! :lol: :lol: :lol:

I'm sure the super rich will be greatly comforted by your support! :o :o :o

Meanwhile, back on the troubled planet earth:

Arctic records its hottest temperature ever

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/arctic-hot ... ture-ever/
Alarming heat scorched Siberia on Saturday as the small town of Verkhoyansk (67.5°N latitude) reached 100.4 degrees Fahrenheit (38 C), 32 degrees above the normal high temperature.

If verified, this is likely the hottest temperature ever recorded in Siberia and also the hottest temperature ever recorded north of the Arctic Circle, which begins at 66.5°N.


A little temperature perspective from Alaska some of which is also on the arctic circle, fyi 100F = 37.8C. Funny what happens to temperatures when you get 24 hours of sun near it’s maximum declination!


FAIRBANKS, Alaska — If you think this summer’s heat wave is hot, just be glad you weren’t around in 1915.
The highest temperature ever recorded in Alaska was 100 degrees on June 27, 1915, in Fort Yukon, according to official records of the National Weather Service. Records date back to 1904.
The highest reliable temperature in Alaska’s second-largest city was 96 degrees on June 15, 1969, the Fairbanks Daily News-Miner reported.



https://www.heraldnet.com/news/alaskas- ... t-in-1915/
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 22

Unread postby dohboi » Wed 24 Jun 2020, 08:16:03

The Russian Arctic is seeing record-breaking heat, and an early start to wildfires

Link >> https://www.arctictoday.com/the-russian ... wildfires/
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 22

Unread postby REAL Green » Thu 25 Jun 2020, 07:01:39

“Flood alert at Three Gorges Dam”
https://asiatimes.com/2020/06/flood-ale ... orges-dam/

“A flood alert has been raised near China’s famous Three Gorges Dam after the country suffered its heaviest rainfall in 70 years. Torrential rain has been causing chaos throughout the country’s southwest this month, with many rivers overflowing and mass evacuations. Heavy rains over the past three weeks have led to disasters being declared in 24 provinces and municipalities, especially near the upper reaches of the Yangtze River and the Three Gorges Dam. This is reportedly the largest flooding since 1949 and a serious challenge for the world’s largest dam. It has affected more than 85 million people and led to the collapse of at least 7,300 homes, with damage put at 20.7 billion yuan (about US$3 billion) so far. In Chongqing, authorities dredged 100,000 tonnes of silt on Monday night as the level of the Yantgtze rose.”
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 22

Unread postby JuanP » Sat 27 Jun 2020, 12:55:46

"Amazon rainforest hit by killer droughts"
https://www.counterpunch.org/2020/06/25 ... #gsc.tab=0

Sooner or later one of these droughts will kill a significant chunk of the Amazon reducing evapotranspiration, which will lead to reduced rains across most of South America East of the Andes. This could become a tipping point for the Amazon jungle with more droughts killing more vegetation which will reduce plant transpiration leading to more droughts in a vicious positive feedback cycle.
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