[Cog]

That cult, as you call it, is also going to put the fear into Senate Republicans to keep the from flipping. I estimate Trump's hard core base as about 30% of Republican voters. No Republican Senator can give up that many votes to a Democrat candidate opponent.

Even assuming the House can articulate some crime that Trump committed. Something we have not yet seen.

[Pops]

Pops, it is not that you have been wrong about assessing Trump. Where you have been wrong is under estimating the depths of the cult like loyalty to a deeply flawed and criminal president.

I admit, I'm still surprised how changed people are. The rage, hatefulness and willful ignorance and just plain bad faith is hard for me to grasp.

That hate wasn't there before, not at the level it is now. I'm from the "deplorables," lived with them all my life, they weren't always deplorable. The right wing rage machine has been very successful in isolating them, indoctrinating them, providing an enemy and now a leader. It wasn't putin, it was the murdochs, mercers, kochs, addlesons and 1,000 corporations that have succeeded spectacularly in capturing a large enough vote to put the coup de grâce to the administrative state. The debt bomb the right warned of for years is detonating as we speak and the very terrorists are dancing in the oval office!

We'll see where it goes from here, the last actual newsman just quit fox. He wasn't a big draw lately, fox viewers don't want news or information anymore, they want rage, vitriol, deep state conspiracy and confirmation of the deep dark baises they've kept hidden all these years.

Look at the mantra of the fox viewers in this thread, they all shout "Queen Nancy" in unison. Repeat some version of an extra-constitutional coup against the leader. And there is no dissuading them, even the constitution doesn't trump their chant.

yeah, kinda culty all right
.

[Cog]

I guess Pops has never witnessed left wing rage and virtue signaling run amok. Sad to be so sheltered. How many videos would you like me to post of people being assaulted for the crime of attending a Trump rally by Antifa goons?

[dissident]

I guess Pops has never witnessed left wing rage and virtue signaling run amok. Sad to be so sheltered. How many videos would you like me to post of people being assaulted for the crime of attending a Trump rally by Antifa goons?

Or average people being attacked for wearing MAGA hats. There is a nice video of some fast food joint SJW losing it over a customer wearing a MAGA hat and ripping it off his head. Only demented NPC SJW drones can see MAGA hats in such a distorted way as to be triggered by them. Anyone who supports NPC SJW drones is either and idiot or one of them. No rational human being should tolerate such grotesque behavior which is all about violating other people's human rights in the name of Trotskyist "identity politics" and assorted other fake causes.

[evilgenius]

That cult, as you call it, is also going to put the fear into Senate Republicans to keep the from flipping. I estimate Trump's hard core base as about 30% of Republican voters. No Republican Senator can give up that many votes to a Democrat candidate opponent.

Even assuming the House can articulate some crime that Trump committed. Something we have not yet seen.

Really? Because it's one thing to use the power of incumbency to gain re-election, and quiet another to use the resources at your disposal as an office holder to ensure such a thing. It's as bad as using the intelligence services to spy on your own people, so that you know what to say to them because you know what they want to hear. No, I'm not accusing Trump of that. I only bring that up in order to make a comparison that people might understand better than whether there was a quid pro quo.

[Ibon]

I guess Pops has never witnessed left wing rage and virtue signaling run amok. Sad to be so sheltered. How many videos would you like me to post of people being assaulted for the crime of attending a Trump rally by Antifa goons?

Or average people being attacked for wearing MAGA hats. There is a nice video of some fast food joint SJW losing it over a customer wearing a MAGA hat and ripping it off his head. Only demented NPC SJW drones can see MAGA hats in such a distorted way as to be triggered by them. Anyone who supports NPC SJW drones is either and idiot or one of them. No rational human being should tolerate such grotesque behavior which is all about violating other people's human rights in the name of Trotskyist "identity politics" and assorted other fake causes.

You are putting on one column a few extremist leftists who get all bent out of shape and full of juvenile rage and are attempting to create a false equivalency comparing this to:

1) The very real manipulative narrative of Trump and his goons using lies to feed the hatred and paranoia of their base with the help of Fox News in order to cover up their criminal acts. If only all the Trump supporters had a clue to how they are being manipulated. They just can't see it. In fact these videos of leftist Antifa rage is exactly part of the way that Trump and Fox baits their base into fear and hatred.

2) A point Pops mentioned that nobody here seems to want to address.

the murdochs, mercers, kochs, addlesons and 1,000 corporations that have succeeded spectacularly in capturing a large enough vote to put the coup de grâce to the administrative state.

If you want to understand the depths of the manipulation you need to see that the polarity in politics, the divisiveness, is fabricated to keep everyone distracted while corporations continue to game the system with the help of crooks in government, Trump only representing the most egregious tip of the ice berg. And he was supposed to drain the swamp! Sure, Clinton was part of the swamp, a corporatist. It is not one party or the other. Let's agree to that and recognize Trump is right in league, far worse actually.

What would be awesome to see at some point up ahead is the polarity and divisiveness coming to an end as the electorate joins to address what is the real deep state here in the USA, this corporate welfare state that games the system.

Could that happen? Are Americans smart enough to stop regurgitating the fabricated polarity talking points and come together for real reform?

[Newfie]

Another question concerning the constitution.

Does the Constitution require the President to cooperate with the congress in the impeachment process?

[Pops]

Another question concerning the constitution.

Does the Constitution require the President to cooperate with the congress in the impeachment process?

you and I both quoted what is said about House impeachment in the constitution.

Tradition has it that the POTUS tries to stonewall congressional investigation, the congress goes to court and/or impeaches him for obstruction. The courts say executive privilege is a thing but not exclusive and they have say so.

{in US v Nixon, the "tapes" case} The Supreme Court acknowledged, for the first time, that an executive privilege exists under the Constitution, but it qualified the scope of the privilege by subjecting it to a balancing of the competing interests and legitimate needs of the executive and judicial branches.

https://www.lawfareblog.com/congression ... n-branches

[Pops]

Could that happen? Are Americans smart enough to stop regurgitating the fabricated polarity talking points and come together for real reform?

We're experiencing the result of primitive human manipulation using new media, really just 10 or 15 years old. Imagine what will it be like when quantum AI pattern recognition figures out the buttons to push?

[Cog]

@ Newfie

A court can compel the executive branch to deliver up documents it holds, but 5th Amendment protections apply to everyone, including the president. It is not obstruction to refuse to testify or cooperate in an investigation. There are several associates of Trump who should have refused to say a word to a federal agent. The only crime they were charged with was lying. General Flynn comes to mind. The FBI was laying an obvious perjury trap and Flynn walked right into it.

The left are attempting a bloodless coup, assisted in part by members of the intelligence community. Cooperating with such a thing is tantamount to sedition.

[Pops]

So what have you heard about impeachment?

What are the charges so far?

Is there any evidence of wrongdoing?

Does it even matter/has it affected your support?

I'm interested in comparing our bubbles, what are your news sources?
.

[Outcast_Searcher]

It is not obstruction to refuse to testify or cooperate in an investigation.

I presume you mean against themselves (i.e. pleading the fifth).

Because they certainly can be compelled to testify as witnesses to crimes, even if they're afraid of retribution from the criminals.

It's not like it's hard to google such things.

I tried "can a witness to a crime be compelled to testify" and got all kinds of relevant looking hits that clearly state that one can be forced to cooperate via subpoena.

Don't take my word for it . So is this politics as usual, or do you actually have a defensible point?

[Cog]

Eric Holder was held in criminal contempt of Congress. Tell me how long he was in jail for that. HAHA.


Bottom line is no one can compel you to testify. You can invoke the 5th Amendment right to remain silent even if you aren't charged with anything. In theory a judge could imprison you if you refused to testify having been given immunity but Congress has no real power to do so.

Or just do a Hillary Clinton and tell the panel you don't remember for 50 times until they get tired of asking. No one can force you to remember. Unless outcast wants to bring back the rack and torture people.

You can never talk yourself out of a conviction by speaking with law enforcement but the jails are full of those who have talked their way into one. Follow a lawyers advice and shut up.

[Newfie]

Uncharted territory
One thing that's clear already is that if the House votes to impeach Trump -- and the Senate does not reach the two-thirds majority required to remove him from office -- the nation will face a novel political situation in 2020. None of the previous three presidents who faced a serious impeachment threat appeared on the next general election ballot.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/15/politics ... index.html

And perhaps win.

Marion Barr - wiki

Barry came to national prominence as mayor of the national capital, the first prominent civil rights activist to become chief executive of a major American city.[2] He gave the presidential nomination speech for Jesse Jackson at the 1984 Democratic National Convention. His celebrity was transformed into international notoriety in January 1990, when he was videotaped during a sting operation smoking crack cocaine and was arrested by Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) officials on drug charges. The arrest and subsequent trial precluded Barry from seeking re-election, and he served six months in a federal prison. After his release, he was elected to the Council of the District of Columbia in 1992. He was elected again as mayor in 1994, serving from 1995 to 1999.

[Cog]

Pelosi is too scared to even have the House vote on an inquiry much less an actual vote to impeach. The inquiry hearings resulted in such bad press for the Dems, they had to move them to private rooms or outright cancel them. Case in point is Schiff has cancelled the whistle blower testimony. I guess he didn't want some unpleasant Republican questions being public.

[Plantagenet]

Perhaps we should stop referring to the anonymous whistleblower as a whistleblower and instead refer to he/she/it as the liar or the fabricator or something like that.

The central point in the whistleblower complaint—-that Trump offered a “quid pro quo” in exchange for “dirt on the Bidens” has turned out to be a lie. Trump released the entire transcript and there is no quid pro quo. And the “dirt on the Bidens” turned out to be a request to investigate corruption......something even the Bidens themselves now admit is a concern, as they just pledged not to allow Hunter to receive millions from foreign corporation anymore if Biden wins the presidency.

———————-

My favorite moment at the D debates last night was when all the D candidates said it was important that the impeachment inquiry not be “partisan”. What a bunch of friggin liars. This is the most partisan impeachment inquiry in history——there has been no vote to authorize it, there are no rights at all for the Rs or for Trump, the hearings are being done in secret, with the press reporting breathlessly whatever some D leaks from the secret hearing.

The Ds are really outdoing themselves this time....especially when they claim they arent being partisan. Jeez what a bunch of liars.

CHEERS!

[Cog]

A bit over half of the Dems on that stage were asking for Trump's impeachment even before the Mueller report came out. Show me the man and I'll showyou the crime.

[Newfie]

At this point the “whistleblower” or his veracity is moot. It’s what Trump has said and done.

In fact an investigation is pretty much moot. Trump has pretty well seen to that. He has been quite brazen in his actions.

This sort of takes the suspense out of everything, strips it to its raw basics. It’s a power game pure and simple. Either the D’s have enough votes to pass impeachment through the Senate, or they don’t.

What else is there really?

I think the D’s have set themselves up like a mouse trap ready to spring once Trump is in position, IF he moves into position. And if he doesn’t?

Someone here noted that once a mystery is out in the open it looses it power, it becomes mundane. To me it sounds like Trump understands that and has defanged the opposition. Now that they have more or less announced they will move for impeachment the longer they don’t just makes them seem feeble, boring, not news worthy. They need to sustain the crescendo to maintain interest. Otherwise they are just also rans.

[Ibon]

I mentioned previously impeachment happens when the Republicans in the senate see Trump more as a liability than an asset moving forward. In that sense yes it is just a pure and simple power game. Trump plays the alpha male card to the extreme that he has ruptured any semblance of competency in his administration and has surrounded himself with goons and loyalists. He is vulnerable but he shouldn't be worth any of our time speculating on this..... that just keeps him in the center which is all he cares about.

[Newfie]

A week or so ago I thought he was more vulnerable. But as of now his base seems firm. I’m not seeing any significant errorsion of R senate support.

One does wonder what the Syrian pull out was about. Perhaps he is ahead of his party on this issue? It’s either completely stupid or brilliant. Sets him aside as being anti-foreign military involvement. Kind of screws with the D base, especially the older Nam era base.

It’s all fascinating.