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Countdown To Impeachment Pt. 1

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Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby Plantagenet » Tue 08 Oct 2019, 19:54:43

Its true that the Congress decides its own rules, but this Congress never voted in rules that allow Queen Nancy to start an impeachment inquiry just on her say-so.

The facts are clear---there has been no vote by the Congress establishing rules for an impeachment inquiry. Indeed, there hasn't even been a vote authorizing an impeachment inquiry.

There has only been a decree from Queen Nancy proclaiming that under her royal authority an impeachment inquiry shall commence forthwith!

And the whole reason that Congress hasn't been given an opportunity to decide to begin an impeachment inquiry is because Queen Nancy has usurped their authority. She has forgotten that she is Speaker of the House---not Queen of the House. There has been no vote of Congress delegating their power to begin impeachment inquiries to Queen Nancy.

One of the reasons we have a democratic rebublic in our country is precisely to avoid this kind of usurpation of power by a single power-mad individual like Queen Nancy. Instead, the whole purpose of Congress---the very reason it was established--- is to have the people's respresentatives vote on the people's business----something Queen Nancy either has forgotten or evidently wants to avoid for some unknown reason.

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FREE THE CONGRESS!!!! DOWN WITH QUEEN NANCY!!! GIVE US BACK OUR DEMOCRACY :-D !!!! LET OUR REPRESENTATIVES VOTE!!!! DOWN WITH THE POWER MAD USURPER!!!!!

Cheers!
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 08 Oct 2019, 20:02:21

If Trump were impeached, and Pence, who would become President?
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby Plantagenet » Tue 08 Oct 2019, 20:12:13

Newfie wrote:If Trump were impeached, and Pence, who would become President?



Why, Queen Nancy would be president then. :-D :lol: 8) :roll:
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby Pops » Tue 08 Oct 2019, 20:28:29

Plantagenet wrote:Its true that the Congress decides its own rules, but this Congress never voted in rules that allow Queen Nancy to start an impeachment inquiry just on her say-so.

Get a grip plant.

The committee chairs can call whomever they like, subpoena whomever they like, they don't need the Speaker to do anything.
Thank the Rs for that.

I'd be fine letting Pence of the brown nose stay, pardon trump, then go to work for fox in 2021.

I just want this part over.
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby Plantagenet » Tue 08 Oct 2019, 20:35:56

Pops wrote:I just want this part over.


Sorry, it doesn't work that way. Queen Nancy started an impeachment inquiry by royal decree. Trump's legal team says that is unconstitutional and they'll see her in court. That will take some time to sort out.

Surprising, given how wacky Trump is, he may be on solid legal ground here. The Constitution places the power to conduct impeachment in the House. The Constitution does not put this power in Queen Nancy or any other single person. The impeachment power resides in CONGRESS, and that means CONGRESS as a whole should be playing a role in this, not just the hyper-partisan Ds.

Personally, I'd like to see this quickly resolved as well. IMHO Pelosi should stop pretending she's the Queen and go back tø being just the speaker. As speaker she should schedule a vote and have the House debate and then vote on whether or not to start an impeachment inquiry. The House could also vote to establish the rules of the impeachment inquiry. Thats why we have a congress....to represent the people and vote on important issues like this.

Why not let the Congress vote? Thats what the Congress was established to do. Congress is not an afterthought or a nothing or a doormat for Queen Nancy----its a living breathing institution that constitutionally should be in charge of any impeachment.

Cheers!
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby Cog » Tue 08 Oct 2019, 20:41:48

Newfie wrote:Cog,

Have you seen any polls on how the American Public is reacting to this impeachment talk?


The latest polls I have seen shows an even split to slightly against. Pretty much the same partisan divide we have talked about before.

But like I told Cid two years ago with the Mueller investigation, the more investigation that goes on, the more Dems get implicated in corruption. Biden was the first of these, but he won't be the last.
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby Pops » Tue 08 Oct 2019, 21:14:25

Plantagenet wrote:Queen Nancy started an impeachment inquiry by royal decree.

Actually she didn't. The various committees were "inquiring" before she admitted it was even an inquiry.

Again, a rule passed by Rs to badger Obama gave committees the power with no need for a vote, careful what you wish for.

BTW, there was no "investigation" at all of Johnson, they just voted articles after going around and around.

Queen Nancy was all for letting trump self-impeach, she remembers the gingrich that Rs pulled in the 90s.

The "senate" has the power of confirming justices but you had no problem when Moscow Mitch unilaterally blocked obamas SCOTUS nominee.
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby Pops » Tue 08 Oct 2019, 21:21:18

Nancy will schedule a vote, the only one the constitution and house rules (republican rules) mandate, whether or not to impeach.
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby Plantagenet » Tue 08 Oct 2019, 23:34:35

Pops wrote:Nancy will schedule a vote, the only one the constitution and house rules (republican rules) mandate, whether or not to impeach.


I suggest you go back and read your constitution.

The US Constitution doesn't refer to the final "voting" as the only thing the whole House does. The US Constitution refers to impeachment itself as as something the whole House does. Clearly an impeachment inquiry is part of the impeachment process and as such it must, according to our glorious constitution, involve the House of Representatives. Not any single person, not even one as egomaniacal as Queen Nancy --- but the HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES should be involved in debating and making these decisions.

The Constitution expressly assigns the power of impeachment to the House of Representatives----not to any single individual and especially not to Queen Nancy.

That means the House of Representatives should be debating this question and then deciding as a body of the whole on whether or not to have an impeachment inquiry and on how to proceed.

SOrry, but thats how democracy works. No single person should be in control. Instead, we should politely ask Queen Nancy to close her pie hole for a second and allow our democracy to function and that means allowing debate and voting by the House to authorize the impeachment inquiry and debate and voting by the House on the nature and rules of the inquiry. This is no time for a two-bit dictator like Queen Nancy to be allowed to set themselves up as a little dictator who can stop all debate and start and start impeachment just by her say so.

This is a time to return to the principles of democracy that made our country great!

LET OUR REPRESENTATIVES VOTE!!!!! FREE THE CONGRESS!!!!!!! ALLOW DEBATE AGAIN!!!!!! TAKE VOTES AGAIN!!!!!!! DOWN WITH QUEEN NANCY!!!

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Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby Cog » Wed 09 Oct 2019, 03:46:17

As things stand now, neither the Republicans or Trump's personal lawyers can subpoena witnesses, introduce evidence, or cross examine witnesses in accordance with the normal rules of evidence. In other words, this "inquiry" is pure politics.

If and when Pelosi ever has a vote on this inquiry, then rules governing the committees would be established. As it is now each of the Democrat controlled committees have their own rules subject only to the committee chair persons whims. This is not a legal process in the slightest. It's pure politics.
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby Cog » Wed 09 Oct 2019, 05:46:30

Link to letter:

https://www.lawfareblog.com/white-house ... nt-inquiry

In a eight page letter from the White House to Congress, the executive branch has thrown down the gauntlet to Speaker Pelosi. Either do this impeachment in a constitutional way or the executive branch will not comply or cooperate with your investigation. This letter cites the law and is well worth reading if you aren't named Pops. Because Pops will merely link to CNN and MSNBC talking points. But enough about Pops. Bottom line is that Pelosi and the Dems aren't doing this impeachment process correctly and if they want the executive to cooperate, then they will have to go to court to enforce compliance. But then those pesky rules of evidence come into play which the Dems hate.

An excerpt:

To comply with the Constitution's demands, appropriate procedures would include-at a
minimum-the right to see all evidence, to present evidence, to call witnesses, to have counsel present at all hearings, to cross-examine all witnesses, to make objections relating to the examination of witnesses or the admissibility of testimony and evidence, and to respond to evidence and testimony. Likewise, the Committees must provide for the disclosure of all evidence favorable to the President and all evidence bearing on the credibility of witnesses called to testify in the inquiry. The Committees' current procedures provide none of these basic constitutional rights.

In addition, the House has not provided the Committees' Ranking Members with the
authority to issue subpoenas. The right of the minority to issue subpoenas-subject to the same rules as the majority-has been the standard, bipartisan practice in all recent resolutions authorizing presidential impeachment inquiries.

11 The House's failure to provide co-equal
subpoena power in this case ensures that any inquiry will be nothing more than a one-sided effort by House Democrats to gather information favorable to their views and to selectively release it as only they determine. The House's utter disregard for the established procedural safeguards followed in past impeachment inquiries shows that the current proceedings are nothing more than an unconstitutional exercise in political theater.

As if denying the President basic procedural protections were not enough, the
Committees have also resorted to threats and intimidation against potential Executive Branch
witnesses. Threats by the Committees against Executive Branch witnesses who assert common
and longstanding rights destroy the integrity of the process and brazenly violate fundamental due
process. In letters to State Department employees, the Committees have ominously threatened­
without any legal basis and before the Committees even issued a subpoena-that "[a]ny failure
to appear" in response to a mere letter request for a deposition "shall constitute evidence of
obstruction." 12 Worse, the Committees have broadly threatened that if State Department officials
attempt to insist upon the right for the Department to have an agency lawyer present at
depositions to protect legitimate Executive Branch confidentiality interests-or apparently if
they make any effort to protect those confidentiality interests at all-these officials will have
their salaries withheld. 13
The suggestion that it would somehow be problematic for anyone to raise long­
established Executive Branch confidentiality interests and privileges in response to a request for a deposition is legally unfounded. Not surprisingly, the Office of Legal Counsel at the
Department of Justice has made clear on multiple occasions that employees of the Executive
Branch who have been instructed not to appear or not to provide particular testimony before
Congress based on privileges or immunities of the Executive Branch cannot be punished for
a deposition is legally unfounded. Not surprisingly, the Office of Legal Counsel at the
Department of Justice has made clear on multiple occasions that employees of the Executive
Branch who have been instructed not to appear or not to provide particular testimony before
Congress based on privileges or immunities of the Executive Branch cannot be punished for



Link to letter: https://www.lawfareblog.com/white-house ... nt-inquiry
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby Cog » Wed 09 Oct 2019, 06:01:16

In order to impeach a president, you need to do things the way they were done during the House impeachment inquiries for Nixon and Clinton. This inquiry was voted on by the full House and the House judiciary committee was chosen to conduct the inquiry. The rights of the accused were respected, unlike what is going on right now with six different Democrat committees, doing whatever they feel like.

This is just a political witch-hunt, just like the Russia collusion hoax.
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby Pops » Wed 09 Oct 2019, 09:09:34

Plantagenet wrote:I suggest you go back and read your constitution.

The US Constitution doesn't refer to the final "voting" as the only thing the whole House does.

LOL. Where?
I.ii The House of Representatives shall choose their speaker and other officers; and shall have the sole power of impeachment.


The most telling thing to me is the"law and order" party has totally succumbed to the idea of the imperial executive. Barr and trumps other personal lawyers assert he is above question, he his personal company, his employees, his hangers on are above question, above investigation.

What are all those anti-government gun hoarders hoarding for if they endorse unlimited, unquestioned government power?
.
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby Pops » Wed 09 Oct 2019, 10:24:43

The word "impeach" means to level a charge.
The houses job is to indict, the trial happens in the Senate.
As I mentioned, the house impeached Johnson 3 days after he fired... (whoever it was).

In other news
538 has support for impeachment rising from 50-40 against impeachment before The Call, to almost 49-44 for impeachment now.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/do ... ent-trump/
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby Ibon » Wed 09 Oct 2019, 11:18:43

Congress will ultimately vote on impeachment and that vote is more of a calculated vote rather than an accurate assessment of the severity of the grounds for impeachment. Of course there does have to be something real in terms of high crimes and misdemeanors which I think only a complete idiot can deny in the case at hand. But put that aside for a moment. There is no impeachment without a calculated assessment that impeachment is the best path forwards. There was a time when that assessment considered what was best for the country. We no longer live in those times so the assessment is along party lines. That takes us to the Republicans in the senate. Which leads to a very basic question. Is Trump a liability or an asset staying on as president and being the candidate for the 2020 elections. We can make all kinds of conjecture regarding how republican senators feel or respect or love or hate Trump but the bottom line of impeachment is a calculation pure and simple. In my assessment the Republicans in the senate are stuck between a rock and a hard place, on one hand held hostage by Trumps base of deplorable racist idiots and on the other hand the polls that increasingly indicate that Trump will lose in the 2020 election. Polls are fickle though but I am guessing that there is increasing consensus that the American voters have had enough of Trump being a one trick pony attacking institutions, breaking apart trade agreements, international alliances, his erratic unhinged mind, his adolescent tweets, racism, his temperament, his character, his divisiveness, etc. etc. I am guessing the Republicans in the senate are witnessing Trumps increasingly irrational psychosis and in the back rooms they are talking seriously about this. You consider how alienated women voters are to Trumps misogyny and put Elizabeth Warren next to Trump in the next election and you can understand how nervous the senate Republicans are

At what point is Trump such a loose cannon that republicans in the senate will see impeachment as the best path forward for their party? I don't think that is any longer a question worth contemplating. The Republicans in the senate would drop Trump in a heartbeat and vote to impeach him if they weren't being held hostage by Trumps base which is clueless to how much Trump is manipulating their sentiments not for their benefit but for only his personal gain.

This is all a calculated game.

One thing I share with Pops, and that is considering that most posters on this site are fairly well educated and rational in terms of understanding the complexity of peak oil and resource constraints and climate change, how the hell have they at the same time arrived at defending a criminal deranged demagogue in the white house? I am equally perplexed at this. Trump does not serve the people. He serves himself. That alone disqualifies him to hold office and many posters here who defend him fail to understand something as basic as this simple fact.
Last edited by Ibon on Wed 09 Oct 2019, 12:26:34, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby jedrider » Wed 09 Oct 2019, 11:22:08

The public opinion tide is turning, on more than one issue, too:

Dick's has destroyed $5 million worth of weapons, its CEO says
https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/08/business/dicks-sporting-goods-destroys-weapons-trnd/index.html

I guess that you Russian loving, gun tooting NRA/Trump toadies are becoming a minority finally.
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 09 Oct 2019, 12:31:34

Ibon wrote:considering that most posters on this site are fairly well educated and rational in terms of understanding the complexity of peak oil and resource constraints and climate change, how the hell have they at the same time arrived at defending a criminal deranged demagogue in the white house?


Personally, I'm not defending Trump. I think his phone call to Ukraine was handled badly.

Having said that, I don't it rises even close to the level of an impeachable offense. Its more like typical cloddish Trump behavior. Trumps previously said and done the same kind of ham-handed cloddish thing hundreds of times throughout his presidency.

On the other side, I also think the Ds are hurting our democratic system by pretending Trump did something "criminal" or "deranged" in making a phone call to Ukraine and asking them to investigate corruption in Ukraine, and then starting a faux impeachment inquiry based on mostly partisan reasons. In particular, I'd like to see the House of Representatives actually vote for an impeachment inquiry rather then having Queen Nancy simple issue a royal decree for the inquiry to commenceth. Thats not how we do things in our country....we should actually respect democratic norms and hold votes.

So what is the bottom line here?

Clearly Ukraine is corrupt. Can we all agree on that?

Clearly Trump is a ham-handed clod who usually says exactly the wrong thing. Can we all agree on that?

Clearly the only reason Hunter Biden got millions of dollars from a Ukrainian oligarch is that his dad Joe Biden was in charge of US policy to Ukraine. Can we all agree on that?

Clearly Donald Trump shouldn't have personally asked the Ukrainian president to investigate the sham job Hunter Biden got because his dad was in charge of US policy towards Ukraine. Can we all agree on that?

Clearly there is a partisan motivation for the Ds starting an impeachment inquiry over this trifling incident, just a year out from the election. Can we all agree on that?

Cheers!
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby Ibon » Wed 09 Oct 2019, 12:50:28

Plantagenet wrote:
Ibon wrote:considering that most posters on this site are fairly well educated and rational in terms of understanding the complexity of peak oil and resource constraints and climate change, how the hell have they at the same time arrived at defending a criminal deranged demagogue in the white house?


Personally, I'm not defending Trump. I think his phone call to Ukraine was handled badly.

Having said that, I don't it rises even close to the level of an impeachable offense. Its more like typical cloddish Trump behavior. Trumps previously said and done the same kind of ham-handed cloddish thing hundreds of times throughout his presidency.

On the other side, I also think the Ds are hurting our democratic system by pretending Trump did something "criminal" or "deranged" in making a phone call to Ukraine and asking them to investigate corruption in Ukraine, and then starting a faux impeachment inquiry based on mostly partisan reasons. In particular, I'd like to see the House of Representatives actually vote for an impeachment inquiry rather then having Queen Nancy simple issue a royal decree for the inquiry to commenceth. Thats not how we do things in our country....we should actually respect democratic norms and hold votes.

So what is the bottom line here?

Clearly Ukraine is corrupt. Can we all agree on that?

Clearly Trump is a ham-handed clod who usually says exactly the wrong thing. Can we all agree on that?

Clearly the only reason Hunter Biden got millions of dollars from a Ukrainian oligarch is that his dad Joe Biden was in charge of US policy to Ukraine. Can we all agree on that?

Clearly Donald Trump shouldn't have personally asked the Ukrainian president to investigate the sham job Hunter Biden got because his dad was in charge of US policy towards Ukraine. Can we all agree on that?

Clearly there is a partisan motivation for the Ds starting an impeachment inquiry over this trifling incident, just a year out from the election. Can we all agree on that?

Cheers!


Keep the focus on Trump and only Trump and you wont be so conflicted and confused. That is my advice. That by the way does not exonerate Biden or excuse excessive partisanship of the D's.
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby Cog » Wed 09 Oct 2019, 13:28:00

Unless the Dems want to formally charge Trump with being mean to them on twitter, they have no high crimes and misdemeanors for the Senate to have a trial about. Right now the House is a joke and becoming more so everyday. You will never flip 15 Republican senators to vote to remove Trump. Waste of time.

Some people just can't face they lost an election in 2016. Boo hoo. Try harder in 2020.
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 09 Oct 2019, 13:51:19

Ibon wrote:Keep the focus on Trump and only Trump and you wont be so conflicted and confused. That is my advice.


If you are focussed only on Trump then naturally you will be appalled by Trump's bad behavior. I see how that would work.

But the world is bigger then Donald Trump, and there is more bad behavior going on here then just that done by Donald Trump.

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How Donald Trump sees the world.....

Cheers!
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