[Ibon]

The purest and most loyal ones, the ones who will hang in there until the end, those will be by and large the most racist.

You miss my point. If you guys are claiming all of Trumps supporters are racist then according to the polls that means pretty close to half of the US is racist. I highly doubt that but I guess anything is possible.

Your point? Whatever it is I'm glad its not in my head. Really, you have an amazing amount of energy dedicated to being misunderstood.

[Plantagenet]

The Ukrainian prosecutor who Biden bullied the Ukrainians into firing says Biden intervened and had him fired because he was going after Burisma---the NG conglomerate run by a pro-Russian oligarch who put Hunter Biden on retainer at $600,000 per year. And, since Biden apparently had no expertise in anything to do with Ukrainian Natural Gas, why shouldn't the $600,000 paid to Hunter be seen as a bribe to the Biden crime family.

And if it was a bribe to the Biden crime family, that would explain why Biden took the extraordinary step of forcing the Ukrainians to fire the special prosecutor who was investigating Burisma.

new-docs-contradict-biden-claim-fired-ukrainian-prosecutor-was-corrupt]

Whats more, there are many documents and sworn legal statements that support what the prosecutor is saying.

Given the corruption in Ukraine, and the new evidence that Joe Biden intervened to shield his son from criminal investigation, I have to confess I don't see what is wrong with the US suggesting to Ukraine that they re-open their investigation of Biden's son. After all, Biden is no longer in office and no longer has any power to withhold funds from Ukraine and otherwise bully them to force them to stop their internal investigations of corruption.

On the bright side for Biden defenders, the definition of an honest crook is one who stays bought after he's been bribed. You can say this for Joe Biden...he stayed bought after the Ukrainian oligarch paid the money and bribed him.


And the bribe worked. When the oligarch needed help Biden rushed in and bullied Ukraine to drop the prosecution of Burisma and the Oligarch.

Cheers!

[Pops]

well that is a surprise because just up thread you and Pops seemed to be claiming all Trump supporters were racist.

I said "white peoples desperation at losing power is evident in electing trump and backing him unconditionally." You heard racist, to which I responded. Just like when the left talks about the environment and GW you hear sanctimonious virtue signaling.

Anyway, on topic, the challenge for the Ds is to bring along the public to the extent they can without losing to the wall of shit that people like plant and every bot russia, iran, NKorea can muster. Impeccable sources such as the fired prosecutor, zero hedge, Daily Caller, the Hill and hanity.
Here is the more widely held view:

USA Today
WASHINGTON — Former Ukrainian prosecutor Yuriy Lutsenko [not the fired one] said Friday that he was not aware of “any possible violation of Ukrainian law by (Joe) Biden and by (Hunter Biden).”

President Donald Trump has repeatedly, without evidence, claimed that Biden as vice president threatened to withhold “billions of dollars to Ukraine” unless it removed prosecutor general Viktor Shokin, who was investigating the oligarch behind Burisma Group. Hunter had served on Burisma's board of directors.

Lutsenko, who closed the investigation into the gas company in 2017, made the comments during an interview on NBC that echoed what he told the Washington Post the day before about Hunter Biden, that “from the perspective of Ukrainian legislation, he did not violate anything.”

The comments from Lutsenko came on the same day Reuters reported the National Anti-Corruption Bureau of Ukraine said an investigation into Burisma covered the years 2010 through 2012, before Hunter Biden joined the energy company's board. The younger Biden joined in 2014.

“Hunter Biden cannot be responsible for violations of the management of Burisma that took place two years before his arrival,” Lutsenko told the Post.

Trump is facing an impeachment inquiry that was sparked by allegations from a in whistleblower complaint that Trump pressured the president of Ukraine to investigate the Bidens.

Try these for confirmation
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 21876.html
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49856788
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... on/598804/
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... ar-AAHTgQp
https://www.yahoo.com/news/ukraine-agen ... 48813.html

[Plantagenet]

President Donald Trump has repeatedly, without evidence, claimed that Biden as vice president threatened to withhold “billions of dollars to Ukraine” unless it removed prosecutor general Viktor Shokin, who was investigating the oligarch behind Burisma Group. Hunter had served on Burisma's board of directors.

Actually, the evidence is very strong that Biden did that...AND that evidence is a statement by an important witness who was on the scene and who can confirm that Biden pressured the Ukrainians to fire the prosecutor. And that witness is Joe BIden himself.

Joe Biden himself boasted during a panel discussion at the Council of Foreign Relations about threatening to withhold a billion dollars from Ukraine unless it removed the prosecutor who was investigating Burisma and the Oligarch who owns it. Its all on video, dude, and Joe Biden says this in the first minute or two of the video so you can't miss it. Just listen to Joe Biden admitting what he did.....

video-of-a-bragging-biden at CFR-boasting-about-withholding-1-billion-in-ukraine-aid-for-official-firing-resurfaces-

Now admittedly BIden is a bit of goof who can say almost anything at anytime, but here are Biden's own words spoken in public and recorded for posterity on video tape admitting he pressured Ukraine by threatening to withhold a billion dollars if they didn't fire the state prosecutor.

I know the MSM are being dishonest as usual and not playing the video showing what Biden said at the CFR, but once you see Biden himself publicly admitting admitting what he did to threaten Ukraine its hard to "unsee" it.

Cheers!

[mmasters]

Good one Plant. Yeah the CFR must be off limits to the MSM. Even Epstien was a member and they wouldn't touch that with a 10 foot pole.

[rockdoc123]

I said "white peoples desperation at losing power is evident in electing trump and backing him unconditionally." You heard racist, to which I responded. Just like when the left talks about the environment and GW you hear sanctimonious virtue signaling.

In what reality is claiming that it is only "white people" who voted for Trump because they were desperate, not racist? If you had said "the general population desperation at losing power" then your claim it wasn't a racist comment might be true but not so the way you framed it and obiously meant it.

but I guess I was also responding to this comment:

Pops did not say the republicans are racist. He specified Trump and his base. I have long concluded that the only ones still with enough cheek to even try to deny this against the overwhelming evidence are racists themselves.

Pretty clear in my mind.

And BTW I point to sanctimonious virtue signaling from any person who whines about companies and governments while refusing to take responsibility for their own actions. Unfortunately, that seems to be people who are mainly liberals.

Here is the more widely held view:

Biden admitted it, in fact bragged about it....it's on tape. OH look, Plant just posted it. So that widely held view about "without evidence" is pure horse manure.

OH, and by the way, if you are a Board member of a company you are responsible for everything that the company has done. It is your job to have ferreted out any prior improprieties when you joined and if you did not report them then you are complicit. That is why whenever companies are convicted under FCPA the entire Board generally ends up resigning or being fired. I've been on several boards of both public companies and not for profits so I know a bit about the responsibility you take on and what due diligence is required (it is why insurance companies have Directors and Officers Liability insurance available to corporations). At issue is the company was being investigated and Biden Jr was a Board member and hence stood to lose significant income if the company was found at fault regardless of his prior involvement. Is it a coincidence that his father had the prosecutor fired with the threat to hold back funds? We won't know until it is investigated.

[Pops]

Pretty clear in my mind.

good for you roc

[rockdoc123]

Given the corruption in Ukraine, and the new evidence that Joe Biden intervened to shield his son from criminal investigation, I have to confess I don't see what is wrong with the US suggesting to Ukraine that they re-open their investigation of Biden's son. After all, Biden is no longer in office and no longer has any power to withhold funds from Ukraine and otherwise bully them to force them to stop their internal investigations of corruption

just to help you out on this point...Foreign Corrupt Practices Act specifically looks at US citizens who used money or influence to get their way in other countries. The US spends tons of money investigating these offenses each year...this year alone about 20 convictions I think. It is serious business. So if Biden used his position to influence decisions in a foreign country (that arguably required compliance with the existing administration) that is precisely what FCPA is looking at. To argue that Trump is at odds with FCPA requires some proof that currently doesn't exist, to argue that Biden is at odds with FCPA (assuming the video is correct) doesn't require any additional proof, it's right there. Apparently different rules for different people in your country.

[jedrider]

Lock her up! It's not going to work this time around. Just because everyone else is corrupt does not exonerate one.

[dissident]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtTP2jzlIaM

So this is the whole basis for the impeachment proceedings? Wow, the USA is really off the rails.

[jedrider]

Yes, just like for Clinton, the public will be the final arbiter of impeachment. Which way do you think it will fall this time?

[jedrider]

Just a side note. The FBI was unable to take down a President. However, the CIA is up at bat now.

If you were a really smart dude, which organization would you want to join?

[Pops]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtTP2jzlIaM

So this is the whole basis for the impeachment proceedings? Wow, the USA is really off the rails.

LOL, try a less biassed source unless you're just looking for confirmation
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/how-b ... 2018-02-28

[Ibon]

I guess everybody is looking for confirmation. When you don't have any organic tribe anymore then the desperate act of looking for confirmation out there in cyber land is about as far as your group instincts can take you.

Everybody looking for solid ground on the very un solid cyber merry go round......

Ask yourselves who takes advantage of this?

There is huge potential for unity for those that can come out from under the spell..........

Can you?

Yes I mean each and every one of you!

[Pops]

I wasn't meaning confirmation in the vein of positive affirmation or whatever new agey sense, but overcoming natural confirmation bias.

Checking ourselves is ever and ever harder. Plant posted garbage from an anonymous blog quoting hanity, the Hill, Daily Caller, and the fired Ukrainian prosecutor ( fired at the urging of the US, EU, world bank, etc for Not Prosecuting btw) and our resident scientist roc says "See! See!"

LOL

We were watching the day the Ukraine "transcript" came out on CBS or CNN and talking about just this. I pontificated that if we changed to fox we'd see nothing but the biden "scandal" and sure enough we switched and it was all biden-gate for as long as we could stand it. MSNBC didn't mention biden except in passing.

Being uninformed is not the answer. Pretending both sides are equally corrupt is not an answer. Pretending there is a hidden cabal is not the answer. That's all mental laziness and lack of introspection. Fragmented, narrowcast biased opinion is profitable and as long as it is the landscape ain't gonna change.

Who takes advantage is obvious, the question is who is self-aware enough to check themselves then their source?

[Pops]

BTW, I read the top green box mostly. I like the Atlantic a lot for long articles. I do read Jacobin, the Nation and Vox. CBS when they aren't tsk tsking & CNN & MSNBC when stuff is going on

[Plantagenet]

Plant posted garbage from an anonymous blog quoting hanity, the Hill, Daily Caller, and the fired Ukrainian prosecutor ( fired at the urging of the US, EU, world bank, etc for Not Prosecuting ....

Again, that isn't true.

If you want to discuss what I post, I suggest you use the "quote" function and directly "quote" the passage you want to discuss so you get it right.

In terms of this discussion you seem to have given up on your earlier phony claim that Biden never bullied the Ukrainians by threatening to withhold money if they didn't fire their special prosecutor. I assume you clicked on the link I provided which took you to the video tape of Biden boasting about bullying the Ukrainians by threatening to withhold one billion dollars in federal money if they didn't fire the prosecutor.

Watching Biden himself admit he threatened the Ukrainians is hard to argue with, isn't it?

So now you seem to be claiming its OK for Biden threaten to withhold money and bully the Ukrainians into firing the special prosecutor.

Sorry, but I don't follow your logic here.

It seems to me that if its wrong for Trump to withhold money and push the Ukrainians into appoint a prosecutor to investigate corruption, then its equally wrong for Biden to withhold money and push the Ukrainians into firing a prosecutor who was investigating corruption.

Lastly, you claim that the prosecutor that Biden got fired wasn't investigating. But thats not what the prosecutor says and that not what hundreds of pages of documents and records show.....The evidence shows Biden was crazy to stop the investigator before he could question Hunter Biden about the millions of dollars he was receiving from BUrisma without doing any work, so Biden bullied the Ukrainians into firing the prosecutor to STOP his investigations of Burisma, where Joe Biden's son was being paid millions of dollars for doing nothing. Joe apparently wanted the investigations stopped BEFORE the 2016 election because he feared it would expose Hunter's sham job and taint the Ds, so he forced the firing.

secret-memos-cast-doubt-on-joe-bidens-ukraine-story

The memos raise troubling questions:

1.) If the Ukraine prosecutor’s firing involved only his alleged corruption and ineptitude, why did Burisma's American legal team refer to those allegations as “false information?"

2.) If the firing had nothing to do with the Burisma case, as Biden has adamantly claimed, why would Burisma’s American lawyers contact the replacement prosecutor within hours of the termination and urgently seek a meeting in Ukraine to discuss the case?

Ukrainian prosecutors say they have tried to get this information to the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) since the summer of 2018, fearing it might be evidence of possible violations of U.S. ethics laws. First, they hired a former federal prosecutor to bring the information to the U.S. attorney in New York, who, they say, showed no interest. Then, the Ukrainians reached out to President Trump’s personal lawyer, Rudy Giuliani.

Ukraine’s new president, Volodymyr Zelensky, told Trump in July that he plans to launch his own wide-ranging investigation into what happened with the Bidens and Burisma.

“I’m knowledgeable about the situation,” Zelensky told Trump, asking the American president to forward any evidence he might know about. "The issue of the investigation of the case is actually the issue of making sure to restore the honesty so we will take care of that and will work on the investigation of the case.”

Biden has faced scrutiny since December 2015, when the New York Times published a story noting that Burisma hired Hunter Biden just weeks after the vice president was asked by President Obama to oversee U.S.-Ukraine relations. That story also alerted Biden’s office that Prosecutor General Viktor Shokin had an active investigation of Burisma and its founder.

Documents .... detail an effort to change the narrative after the Times story about Hunter Biden, with the help of the Obama State Department.

-------------------------

So much as the phony Russiagate accusations can be traced back to the Hillary campaign, this phony impeachment process can be traced back to Joe Biden bullying the Ukrainians to cover up the huge bribes that Burisma was paying to his son Hunter.


The Ds.....even more corrupt then we imagined.

Cheers!

[rockdoc123]

We were watching the day the Ukraine "transcript" came out on CBS or CNN and talking about just this. I pontificated that if we changed to fox we'd see nothing but the biden "scandal" and sure enough we switched and it was all biden-gate for as long as we could stand it. MSNBC didn't mention biden except in passing.

so are you somehow claiming that the video in which Biden brags about threatening to withhold cash unless the prosecutor was fired was doctored? That wasn't really Biden it was an actor or CGI? Jesus wept.

[Ibon]

I wasn't meaning confirmation in the vein of positive affirmation or whatever new agey sense, but overcoming natural confirmation bias.

I actually was meaning this literally, as in the insidious nature of the cyber world's role in cementing folks in their tribal positions.

Out there in the organic world of work places folks don't talk anymore about politics for fear of offending colleagues of a different party. It wasn't that many years ago in the work place a democrat and republican could discuss their differences, vote differently and still be on good terms. Now politics has become a lot like pornography, where folks come on line (or should I say cum) to indulge in total anonymity where they find confirmation with others and where they can be unfiltered in their bias.

To discuss politics in mixed company in the organic world is now disappearing.

You don't really need Russians to use social media to influence elections . In the cyber world everybody does this already on their own. Folks don't cum on line to seek truth. They seek confirmation of their bias..... just review the posts on this thread.

[mmasters]

"Federal records show that the intelligence community secretly revised the formal whistleblower complaint form in August 2019 to eliminate the requirement of direct, first-hand knowledge of wrongdoing."

https://thefederalist.com/2019/09/27/in ... knowledge/