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Countdown To Impeachment Pt. 1

A forum for discussion of regional topics including oil depletion but also government, society, and the future.

Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby Pops » Thu 26 Sep 2019, 23:11:51

LOL, don't know how that little winky sunglasses guy got in the US code.
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Thu 26 Sep 2019, 23:36:46

So let's just say the Ukrainian is as dense as you pretend to be. trump "asks a favor" while acting in an his official capacity as most powerful man in the world. The favor is to provide something of personal value to trump.


UH, you might see it that way but what he was clearly asking was for (as described in the transcript without over-interpreting) was the investigation of a potential criminal act by not one but two US citizens (his job). He was also asking for help in investigating interference in the 2016 election which I suspect he should be expected to do given everyone has had their diapers in a knot over just that for the past year. If he was asking for the Ukraine President to “find some dirt” on Biden I suspect he would have said that but he did not. You are putting words into the conversation that never occurred. Your imagination nor that of the Dems is evidence of anything.

OK you quoted what impeachment entails but:

(1) improperly exceeding or abusing the powers of the office;

no proof of that in the phone call. He is expected to do exactly what he did, reach out to a foreign power with help investigating crimes against the US. You can imagine it some other way but there is nothing in that phone call that suggests it.

(2) behavior incompatible with the function and purpose of the office; 


calling the President of another country that the US does business with and supplies funding to is doing exactly what his job requires. How is that incompatible with the function and purpose of the office?

(3) misusing the office for an improper purpose or for personal gain.


You bolded this so you must think you have proof of this. What is it? Did he get something of value out of that phone call that was not going to happen anyway? No, the President of Ukraines stated in the call they were investigating the prosecutor's dismissal anyway as they were worried about corruption. Please show us what he got of value? He isn’t running against Biden at this moment and may never be.

On the other hand, Biden admitted (in fact bragged) about doing exactly this with the Ukraine judiciary when he was Vice President (with holding funds unless they fired the prosecutor). Yet you don’t seem fussed about that. That one is clearly illegal and he admitted to it.

Come on, at least familiarize yourself. The Ukrainian was waiting on $400m in aid from the US, not the opportunity to buy stuff. The aid was being held up by trump prior to the call.


did Trump at some point in that call indicate that the aid was dependent on something in return? No he did not, he didn't even mention or imply it unless you have a very, very active imagination. There is no smoking gun linking the aid being held back to anything other than wanting Europeans to pay their share. That aid was released and guess what....nothing has been provided from the Ukraine government in return, so once again a nothing burger.

But he doesn't have to offer him anything, merely soliciting dirt on his opponent is illegal:


Where exactly was he asking for "dirt"? He was asking about investigating a potential criminal act by a US citizen (again his job). FCPA directly prohibits exactly what he was wondering about Biden and his son having done and that is a criminal act that is regularly investigated by foreign officials on behalf of the US. If there was no prior suggestion that Biden or his son had done anything wrong then there is possibly an argument there but that is not the case.

I understand that you and the hoard of limousine liberals in the US hate Donald Trump and don't want him in power. But this continual making crap up with no evidence is beyond the pale. Vote him out next year, there's your solution. If he is as badly hated as the left seems to believe then that shouldn't be a problem. Then all you have to worry about is where Warren or Bernie are going to get the trillions of dollars they need to meet their ridiculous promises. That will be even harder when all the large corporations pack up and leave for business-friendly climes and the 1% move to a country where they aren't overtaxed for being successful.
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby careinke » Fri 27 Sep 2019, 00:09:35

Pops wrote:
rockdoc123 wrote:If he wanted something in return for what the US had done he would have said...hey we did this for you and will continue to sell you stuff but only if you do this.

Come on, at least familiarize yourself. The Ukrainian was waiting on $400m in aid from the US, not the opportunity to buy stuff. The aid was being held up by trump prior to the call.

But he doesn't have to offer him anything, merely soliciting dirt on his opponent is illegal:

Ellen Weintraub, head of the Federal Election Commission
“Let me make something 100% clear to the American public and anyone running for public office: It is illegal for any person to solicit, accept, or receive anything of value from a foreign national in connection with a U.S. election.”

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/fec-chai ... 4a120c90eb

longer
Federal law prohibits a foreign national from directly or indirectly making a “contribution or donation of money or other thing of value” in connection with a U.S. election, and prohibits a person from soliciting, accepting or receiving such a contribution or donation from a foreign national. Federal law defines “contribution” to include “any gift … of money or anything of value made by any person for the purpose of influencing any election for Federal office.” And the FEC by regulation defines “solicit” to mean “to ask, request, or recommend, explicitly or implicitly, that another person make a contribution, donation, transfer of funds, or otherwise provide anything of value.”

https://www.justsecurity.org/66277/the- ... rainegate/

and shorter
52 U.S. Code § 30121.Contributions and donations by foreign nationals
U.S. Code
(a)Prohibition
It shall be unlawful for—

(1)a foreign national, directly or indirectly, to make—
(A)a contribution or donation of money or other thing of value, or to make an express or implied promise to make a contribution or donation, in connection with a Federal, State, or local election;
(B)a contribution or donation to a committee of a political party; or
(C)an expenditure, independent expenditure, or disbursement for an electioneering communication (within the meaning of section 30104(f)(3) of this title); or
(2)a person to solicit, accept, or receive a contribution or donation described in subparagraph (A) or (B) of paragraph (1) from a foreign national.
(b)“Foreign national”
defined As used in this section, the term “foreign national” means—
(1)a foreign principal, as such term is defined by section 611(b) of title 22, except that the term “foreign national” shall not include any individual who is a citizen of the United States; or
(2)an individual who is not a citizen of the United States or a national of the United States (as defined in section 1101(a)(22) of title 8) and who is not lawfully admitted for permanent residence, as defined by section 1101(a)(20) of title 8.
(Pub. L. 92–225, title III, § 319, formerly § 324, as added Pub. L. 94–283, title I, § 112(2), May 11, 1976, 90 Stat. 493; renumbered § 319, Pub. L. 96–187, title I, § 105(5), Jan. 8, 1980, 93 Stat. 1354; amended Pub. L. 107–155, title III, §§ 303, 317, Mar. 27, 2002, 116 Stat. 96, 109.)

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/52/30121


You just made the perfect case for throwing both Hilary and Biden in jail. What's good for the goose.....
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 27 Sep 2019, 00:23:25

Why is it OK for the Ds ask Ukraine to investigate Trump but its not OK for Trump to ask the Ukrainians to investigate Hunter Biden.....??

democrats-pressed-ukrainians-to-cooperate-with-mueller-investigation

Methinks crooked people should be investigated, whether they are D or R.....Its very hypocritical for the Ds to ask Ukraine to investigate Trump, and then flip out because Trump asked the Ukrainians to investigate Hunter Biden.

Why exactly was a pro-RUssian oligarch was paying Hunter Biden $600,000 per year to advise him when Hunter Biden's main skill is snorting cocaine? Why did Joe Biden take Hunter Biden to Ukraine in the first place? Official US government flights are not supposed to be used for private junkets.

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Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby Cog » Fri 27 Sep 2019, 05:38:21

There exists a erroneous impression that because an ex vice president is running for office he is immune from investigation and ultimately prosecution. Unless the Dems believe the law only applies to Republicans or to Trump in particular.

One more thing did you see the word Crowdstrike mentioned in the phone conversation? That makes the Dems a lot more nervous than the mention of Biden and son. More on that soon.
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 27 Sep 2019, 05:46:57

Ibon wrote:With the murder of Eppstein still fresh in the minds of many of those in power that whistle blower needs to take special care.


Epstein didn’t get murdered for what he said, he got murdered for what he had yet to say. Not retribution but prevention. The whistle blower is likely safe.
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 27 Sep 2019, 05:51:09

It seems the folks that want a civil war are doing everything possible to bring it on.
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 27 Sep 2019, 05:58:21

Newfie wrote:
Ibon wrote:With the murder of Eppstein still fresh in the minds of many of those in power that whistle blower needs to take special care.


Epstein didn’t get murdered for what he said, he got murdered for what he had yet to say. Not retribution but prevention. The whistle blower is likely safe.


That's a good point.

In the case of Trump he is actually totally isolated .... the only ace he has in his deck is his cult like base. Within his own administration he is despised. There are many many Republican politicians who cannot stomach him. They are secretly cheering the House Democrats right now. The only thing that can save Trump is the fear that the Republican congressmen have of their own cult like constituents who blindly continue to support Trump in spite of all the sleeze.

The numbers are shifting but who knows if they will shift enough for impeachment.

There is no impeachment without public support and there are many Republican congressmen who are just waiting for the cracks to widen a bit more for them to start to turn.
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 27 Sep 2019, 07:52:37

Agreed, I see Trump as vulnerable at this point.
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby Pops » Fri 27 Sep 2019, 09:49:02

rockdoc123 wrote:You bolded this so you must think you have proof of this. What is it? Did he get something of value out of that phone call that was not going to happen anyway? No, the President of Ukraines stated in the call they were investigating the prosecutor's dismissal anyway as they were worried about corruption. Please show us what he got of value? He isn’t running against Biden at this moment and may never be.

On the other hand, Biden admitted (in fact bragged) about doing exactly this with the Ukraine judiciary when he was Vice President (with holding funds unless they fired the prosecutor). Yet you don’t seem fussed about that. That one is clearly illegal and he admitted to it.

You trumpers demonstrate exactly what he got, biden-gate. Gulliani has been dredging ukraine and pumping it for months on fox.

How about you guys post up something more than regurgitated fox accusations and show me some evidence?

The worst offense to me is trump using the power of the office to perpetuate his power, that is unamerican.
You all up there in Canada like the idea of a monarch don't you? Rs here generally are followers too, they like pooties bare chest. As I think about it, white peoples desperation at losing power is evident in electing trump and backing him unconditionally.

White people know their hold on unconditional power is coming to an end
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Fri 27 Sep 2019, 10:11:34

How about you guys post up something more than regurgitated fox accusations and show me some evidence?


well I'm not a "Trumpster" but the one thing I do know is that it is the accuser who has to come up with hard evidence not the one accused. And as has been pointed out the transcript has no evidence (certainly nothing that would even tweak the interest of a prosecutor anywhere) and the whistle blower has nothing but second and third party information which I also shouldn't have to point out is called heresay. With regards to Biden the reason Trump was asking the Ukraine President to investigate was to see if there is any evidence to support the claims.

The worst offense to me is trump using the power of the office to perpetuate his power, that is unamerican.


Hold on....let's look at every last President you've had for the past several decades. Clinton benefited greatly from being President, suddenly a very, very rich man all because of his position. Obama the same thing...suddenly worth hundreds of millions of dollars and buying property that only the very wealthy could contemplate and that money only appeared as a result of him being president. At least Trump had money and power prior to taking office. I suspect when it is all said and done he will benefit much less from his appointment than any other president in the last century and I wouldn't be surprised if he asks himself why he did it in the first place as there wasn't a lot to gain.

You all up there in Canada like the idea of a monarch don't you? Rs here generally are followers too, they like pooties bare chest. As I think about it, white peoples desperation at losing power is evident in electing trump and backing him unconditionally.


OH good God. Here we go...now it is somehow White people's fault? What does that have to do with anything other than the go to for the left when you have no facts to fall back on...oh, you are a racist, an accusation that ends most conversations. What a load of complete BS. Have you ever been to Canada or for that matter another of the Commonwealth countries that house around 2.5 billion people? You claim they are all somehow "racist" and white priviledged? Please explain that claim to someone from India one of the largest Commonwealth countries around. :roll:
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby Pops » Fri 27 Sep 2019, 11:17:09

rockdoc123 wrote:one thing I do know is that it is the accuser who has to come up with hard evidence not the one accused.

The "transcript" is notes of the conversation taken by trump staffers. Thought trump lies incessantly and expects his hangers-on to lie for him, the notes still show him soliciting derogatory information on his political opponent from a foreign government.

Deny that all you want, it is there in black and white, released by trump himself, the whistleblower has nothing to do with the "read out" by trumps own people.

And as has been pointed out the transcript has no evidence (certainly nothing that would even tweak the interest of a prosecutor anywhere)

Over 300 former national security professionals call out Trump for "unconscionable abuse of power"
Even before this episode Hundreds (700) of former prosecutors say Trump would have been indicted if he were not president

Clinton benefited greatly from being President, suddenly a very, very rich man all because of his position.

He didn't solicit foreign assistance in his election.

OH good God.

The number one indicator of support for trump is racist attitude. It really bugs you doesn't it?
Here's your guy
A former New Jersey police chief who is being tried on federal hate-crime assault charges used racial slurs, compared blacks to “ISIS” and said President Trump “is the last hope for white people,” according to reports.

“I’m telling you, you know what, Donald Trump is the last hope for white people, ’cause Hillary will give it to all the minorities to get a vote,” former Bordentown Police Chief Frank Nucera said, according to NJ.com, which cited a transcript displayed at trial in Camden federal court this week.

“That’s the truth! I’m telling you,” he added.
LOL


This has been fun but my mailbox is overflowing, I'll get back later.
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 27 Sep 2019, 11:36:56

Pops wrote:
OH good God.

The number one indicator of support for trump is racist attitude. It really bugs you doesn't it?
Here's your guy


Hey RockDoc,

Since Pops is busy let me take over. Pops did not say the republicans are racist. He specified Trump and his base. I have long concluded that the only ones still with enough cheek to even try to deny this against the overwhelming evidence are racists themselves.

There have been a lot of Republicans not comfortable with the way Trump has played the race card to generate cult like adoration from his base.

You really have doubts about that?
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Fri 27 Sep 2019, 12:19:25

I have long concluded that the only ones still with enough cheek to even try to deny this against the overwhelming evidence are racists themselves.


once again the go to response....if you disagree with me you must be a racist. It is amazing to me that the left in the US thinks they are somehow holy than thou which possibly explains Hilary calling all Trump supporters a basket of deplorables. Not much different than calling someone a denier because they haven't bought into the myth of a climate crisis that has no scientific basis. Stops any possible conversation and seals your position in the tribe. What a copout.

the notes still show him soliciting derogatory information on his political opponent from a foreign government.


once again, the notes show him asking the Ukraine President to investigate possible crimes under US law committed by US citizens abroad. I suspect if they are guilty then the term derogatory doesn't fit.

He didn't solicit foreign assistance in his election.


and neither did Trump....oh perhaps your unhappy with the results of the Mueller probe? Or somehow you think that the Dems have elected Biden and he is now running against Trump in the 2020 election? Sorry neither are the case so your argument is complete nonsense.

The number one indicator of support for trump is racist attitude.


the last time I checked about half of the Hispanic vote in the US supports Trump and about a third of the African American vote does as well. I guess they all must be racists by your definition. I'm sure you have an argument that they must be pandering to their white masters. :roll:

As to the 300 former national security professionals....I guess we don't have to ask how many voted for Hilary do we?

Here is what they said:

"President Trump appears to have leveraged the authority and resources of the highest office in the land to invite additional foreign interference into our democratic processes. That would constitute an unconscionable abuse of power. It also would represent an effort to subordinate America's national interests -- and those of our closest allies and partners -- to the president's personal political interest,"


exactly where did he invite the Ukraine to interfer with democratic processes? Investigating Biden for potential criminal activity is something within his remit and something he should be expected to do. Did he ask the Ukraine President to help him get re-elected? Did he ask the Ukraine President to undermine the Democratic Party? No in both cases. So yes it would be bad if he did but there is nothing in that note to suggest he did unless you just like to make things up.

As to the notes from the phone call having been altered ....oh please, give us all a break. It was predicted that the Democrats would immediately state the notes were altered once it was determined there was nothing in them to support their claims and right on cue, there we go.

As I said previously you have an election where you can vote him out. According to you there is no support from African Americans or Hispanics for Trump and all other peoples of color also hate him. That alone should give you all the votes you need. My guess is you know that is a bunch of crap and the only possible way of making sure he isn't re-elected is to have him removed prior to that choice being an option.
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 27 Sep 2019, 12:25:24

rockdoc123 wrote:
It is amazing to me that the left in the US thinks.......................


It seems you are the one that wants to keep this framed in some sort of left/right polarization. I know enough conservatives, many who are republicans, who are not racist, to buy into that bullshit.

Framing it this way is no longer working RockDoc.... keep this up you will be a fossil.
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Fri 27 Sep 2019, 12:41:16

I know enough conservatives, many who are republicans, who are not racist, to buy into that bullshit.


well that is a surprise because just up thread you and Pops seemed to be claiming all Trump supporters were racist. If the conservatives and republicans who apparently aren't racists didn't support him then how did he get elected? And why is his support according to polls still as high as Obama's or Clintons or Regan for this period in his term? By your logic there must be a heck of a lot of racists in the US. :roll:
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 27 Sep 2019, 12:41:38

Trump has failed to put together a cohesive team or troop support. He keeps everyone off balance with his extreme self centered Machiavellian maneuvers which is only focused on himself. What this gives him is a fragile kind of loyalty and respect but that respect comes purely from fear and from power games. The problem is that inevitably a mutiny grows within his ranks. IF any of you think this whistle blower acted alone you are not understanding the troop dynamics here.

An update on the study of Alpha Males in our nearest cousins the Chimpanzee.


But his research in chimpanzees shows that leadership is more nuanced than that.
Alpha chimpanzees are impressive and intimidating leaders, but the majority of those who rise to the top are also generous and kind to others because they know respect will help them maintain their position at the top, Mr De Waal said.
“You should not call a bully an alpha male,” Mr De Waal said. “Someone who is big and strong and intimidates and insults everyone is not necessarily an alpha male.”
He says many chimpanzees know being kind and loving is a way to win over fans, whether by tickling babies, sharing food, or engaging in a kind of primate political campaign.
Other scientists who have studied the way power dynamics work in humans are uncovering similar truths.

Research suggests that we are more likely to perceive “physically formidable” men as better leaders, but that does not hold true if they are unpleasant. Still, power is a dangerous drug. It can chill your ability to empathise with others because it disengages the prefrontal cortex and deactivates the vagus nerve, which promotes compassion, gratitude, and appreciation.
There is a way to counteract these effects. If leaders feel a heightened sense of social responsibility, they can remain in tune with the needs and views of others.
It seems the chimps are on to the strategy.
“You don’t need to be the biggest and strongest male,” Mr De Waal said


https://www.ted.com/talks/frans_de_waal ... anguage=en
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 27 Sep 2019, 13:07:46

rockdoc123 wrote:
well that is a surprise because just up thread you and Pops seemed to be claiming all Trump supporters were racist.


The purest and most loyal ones, the ones who will hang in there until the end, those will be by and large the most racist.

Many voted for Trump not because of racism, after all, many of these same folks voted for Obama.

Trump has been a terrible one trick pony and a major failure in building any kind of a coalition. He has isolated just about everybody except his most loyal racist base.
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby jedrider » Fri 27 Sep 2019, 15:14:41

Trump has been toxic: He was toxic to all the banks he defrauded, to the properties he acquired and, now, to the Republican party.

(May I add, they probably all deserved it.)
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Fri 27 Sep 2019, 16:11:37

The purest and most loyal ones, the ones who will hang in there until the end, those will be by and large the most racist.


You miss my point. If you guys are claiming all of Trumps supporters are racist then according to the polls that means pretty close to half of the US is racist. I highly doubt that but I guess anything is possible. :roll:
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