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Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby The_Toecutter » Mon 16 Dec 2019, 17:18:32

rockdoc123 wrote:yeah OK....and I painted the cystine chapel as well. :roll:


Your mind is closed to the possibility that she's competent enough to have formed those thoughts on her own, because of her age. You must inhabit a very narrow world. As old and experienced as you are, I'd expect different of you.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby Cog » Mon 16 Dec 2019, 17:28:33

Greta has all the signs of fetal alcohol syndrome and admits she has Aspbergers. How much more clear does she need to demonstrate that she suffers from mental illness and is being used as a puppet by the far left?
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby The_Toecutter » Mon 16 Dec 2019, 17:42:24

Cog wrote:Greta has all the signs of fetal alcohol syndrome and admits she has Aspbergers. How much more clear does she need to demonstrate that she suffers from mental illness and is being used as a puppet by the far left?


1) I wouldn't be so quick to claim the diagnoses of Aspergers was indicative that she was mentally defective. The DSM is rife with its own problems, most especially the lack of rigor and processes found in the scientific method. The fields of psychiatry/psychology are much like the "science" of economics in the way in which they are entirely unscientific. These "medical sciences", while not entirely useless, are still much akin to a medieval plague doctor wearing a bird mask, the "beak" stuffed with a concoction of medicinal herbs, thinking it protects him from the plague, while using the four humors to diagnose someone's ailments.
2) You diagnosing her as having fetal alcohol syndrome is the equivalent of some random forum poster claiming any random image is photoshopped. The only evidence available is highly subjective.
3) There is the possibly she is being used as a puppet. There's no proof. There's some evidence to support the contention, and a lot of wild speculation, misinformation, and fake news to go with it.
Last edited by The_Toecutter on Mon 16 Dec 2019, 18:24:36, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Mon 16 Dec 2019, 17:48:44

Your mind is closed to the possibility that she's competent enough to have formed those thoughts on her own,


its called reality.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby The_Toecutter » Mon 16 Dec 2019, 17:57:11

rockdoc123 wrote:its called reality.


Yours perhaps. None of us really know the real situation, or what Greta has actually been thinking, or what she has experienced. That is why there's so much speculation and theories surrounding her. Did you personally witness someone write those speeches for her?
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 16 Dec 2019, 19:08:41

Personally I fell a great deal of sympathy for Greta. I don’t see any way where this is going to end well for her.

I wish her well and a long happy life. I hope she can find some closure and peace and normalcy.

And I hope she finds a way to have some fun and joy.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Mon 16 Dec 2019, 19:21:35

OK you and Plant want to believe she is a genius savant who has become an expert climate scientist in a very few months, expert in all things to do with atmospheric physics, capable of analyzing the hundreds of papers referenced in IPCC AR5, able to hold her own in debates with the likes of Judith Curry, John Christy or Pielke Sr, able to leap tall buildings in a single bound. Funny how she refuses to answer any questions whatsoever after spewing her nonsense.

Na-ive
Adjective
(of a person or action) showing a lack of experience, wisdom, or judgment.

:roll:

If you're too lazy or simply incapable of learning about all the intricacies of climate change from the actual literature then please just admit you are happy to learn all about it from a 16-year-old and we can keep that in mind. And as to the panicked, "we are doomed" BS spouted by her handlers here are some inconvenient facts courtesy of Curry :

Over the past century, there has been a 99% decline in the death toll from natural disasters, during the same period that the global population quadrupled.

While global economic losses from weather and climate disasters have been increasing, this is caused by increasing population and property in vulnerable locations. Global weather losses as a percent of global GDP have declined about 30% since 1990.

While the IPCC has estimated that sea level could rise by 0.6 meters by 2100, recall that the Netherlands adapted to living below sea level 400 years ago.

Crop yields continue to increase globally, surpassing what is needed to feed the world. Agricultural technology matters more than climate.

The proportion of world population living in extreme poverty declined from 36% in 1990 to 10% in 2015.


seems like things are a lot less dire than Greta wants to fume and spit about.

And I hope she finds a way to have some fun and joy.


wasn't there some kid in the US who sued his parents for a "divorce"? That might work. :wink:
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 16 Dec 2019, 19:50:12

I said no such thing. She is a sad little girl.

Good grief, what fantasy you have.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby Plantagenet » Mon 16 Dec 2019, 19:58:41

Newfie wrote:Personally I fell a great deal of sympathy for Greta. I don’t see any way where this is going to end well for her.

I wish her well and a long happy life. I hope she can find some closure and peace and normalcy.

And I hope she finds a way to have some fun and joy.


I think there is a good chance Greta will do just fine. Both her parents are established and successful artists in Sweden, and when Greta grows up she may decide to go into the theatre like her parents, or perhaps become a novelist. She would also make an excellent politician. I could see her being elected to the EU parliament, for instance, running as a Green.

Or perhaps she will continue to organize the global anti-climate change youth movement she started for a while longer.

I'm pretty optimistic she'll do just fine. She's a fiercely intelligent person and her family is close and supportive. She is also the most famous 16 year old in the world. I expect Greta to do very well in life, assuming she mellows out a bit and learns to be patient and tolerant and adaptable and not too inflexible in dealing with other people.

Image
I can picture Greta joining the Green Party and run for the EU parliament from Sweden to continue pushing her climate change agenda.

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"Our house is on fire" Greta Thunberg, 12/28/19

"The people in power should listen.....its them I'm criticizing" Greta Thunberg, 12/4/19
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Mon 16 Dec 2019, 20:38:30

I said no such thing. She is a sad little girl.


i was responding to toecutters comment, somehow your post got in before that.

My only comment on your post was at the bottom
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 16 Dec 2019, 20:50:20

OK.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby The_Toecutter » Mon 16 Dec 2019, 22:52:20

rockdoc123 wrote:OK you and Plant want to believe she is a genius savant who has become an expert climate scientist in a very few months, expert in all things to do with atmospheric physics, capable of analyzing the hundreds of papers referenced in IPCC AR5,


Hyperbole, a bit much? I believe none of those assertions. It is possible for someone to be of above average intelligence and have an understanding of these things that is exceptional. Climate scientists themselves really have yet to truly understand the subject they are studying as there is a lot of unknowns and constantly changing variables.

able to hold her own in debates with the likes of Judith Curry, John Christy or Pielke Sr,


Perhaps with enough coaching, or if it's pre-scripted in advance, or maybe she's simply studied the subject in-depth herself, or any other number of things... I remember the first debate I had with a professor of Electrical Engineering at my former university, very first day of class, when I was 18. We talked about electric cars and battery technology. He was of the opinion that they would never be viable, that fuel cells were the more likely route, and I argued as to why battery EVs already were viable from a purely technical standpoint and why fuel cells were a more obstacle-laden. We went back and forth for the next 30 minutes or so. I held my own against him and he said that it would be impossible to develop the technology that I explained was already in the prototype stages by companies such as AC Propulsion and the like(AC Propulsion licensed later its technology to Tesla Motors, BTW), and which ended up coming to fruition just a few short years later. Granted, this man knew a hell of a lot more than I did on the subject of electrical engineering, but on the subject of EVs, I held my own against him, and time proved him wrong and me correct on this subject. He had decades of experience as an Electrical Engineering professor, and I was just a kid that read lots of books and technical papers on one subject related to it. I can see the possibility of Greta being in a similar situation in these debates, except in her case, it is recorded and scrutinized around the world, and with perhaps an even greater disparity in overall knowledge between her and those she was debating than between me and my former professor.

I don't think it is at all implausible that she knows a lot about this subject, independent of whether she is right or wrong. Some people read books and technical papers when they are young, entirely on their own, and more importantly, sometimes they understand them enough to form their own opinions on the subject that are every bit as valid as those of the experts.

Funny how she refuses to answer any questions whatsoever after spewing her nonsense.


Which questions would those be?

If you're too lazy or simply incapable of learning about all the intricacies of climate change from the actual literature then please just admit you are happy to learn all about it from a 16-year-old and we can keep that in mind.


This level of patronizing is indicative of intellectual laziness at best.

I'm not pretending she knows everything there is to know about this subject and I'm not going to do so, nor is my view on the subject of global warming based upon what she has said. I've read all sorts of interesting literature on the subject. The more dire warnings come from the likes of Jim Hansen(see: "Climate Threat to the Planet:*Implications for Energy Policy and Intergenerational Justice") and James Lovelock, both of whom know far more about this subject than Greta. The fact that there is overlap between some of what they say and what Greta says is telling of either her understanding or that of any would-be handlers, and Greta doesn't need to be some kind of savant for this overlap to exist even in the event that what she has said is her own words and not someone elses'.

And as to the panicked, "we are doomed" BS spouted by her handlers here are some inconvenient facts courtesy of Curry :


The decline in death toll from natural disasters over the past century has a lot of factors. Improved sanitation, advances in communications technology, refrigeration, the development of electricity infrastructure, and the development of transportation infrastructure(roads/rail, ect) are probably the more significant ones.

The way that GDP is measured, changes thereof, and the rate of increase also has a lot to do with what the global weather losses as a percentage of GDP would equate to.

How long did it take the Netherlands to construct its system of dykes that allowed it to exist to this day in its current form? How many man hours per mile of dyke? How many miles of coastline are there worldwide, and how many miles of dyke were made in the Netherlands? These things matter greatly.

Crop yields are heavily dependent on synthesized inputs, mainly petroleum derived. In most of the U.S., food production would not be viable without them since the soil has been stripped of macronutrients thanks to repeated monocultures. Food production in the quantities and using the industrial methods as it exists today in the U.S. also wouldn't be possible without an unsustainable amount of water consumption that is reliant upon rapidly depleting aquifers, many of which are imploding in upon themselves which will assure they can never be replenished by future rainfall, rainfall patterns that are also shifting rapidly and risk turning the midwest into a desert over the course of this century. This diminishing water supply is then further placed at risk as hydraulic fracking and the formulas with ingredients that are kept hidden from the public used to extract the remaining oil and gas threaten to contaminate what remains of the viable ground water supplies. Get rid of the pesticides, synthetic fertilizers, and diminish the available water supply and watch as the fields whither away and dust-bowl like conditions make a vengeful comeback, possibly on a national scale. At the current rate of topsoil erosion, it is possible that the U.S. could run out of viable soil within my lifetime as well.

While it is true the proportion of the world's population in poverty has declined since 1990, this is due to a wide variety of factors, some of which have nothing to do with energy consumption, and others which will be significantly worsened should energy consumption face decline(unless alternatives are in place). Much of the reduction in poverty was made possible by increasing consumption of both renewable and non-renewable resources. Consumption of non-renewable resources has exacerbated the destruction of the biosphere and as that destruction of the biosphere continues unabated, the amount of renewable resources supplied will decline every bit as rapidly if not moreso than the decline of available non-renewable resources once the decline of non-renewable resources sets in. What effect will that have? Will humanity figure out a mitigation strategy for that conundrum? It's a discussion topic near and dear to this message board without anyone knowing a clear answer.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Mon 16 Dec 2019, 23:44:37

I don't think it is at all implausible that she knows a lot about this subject, independent of whether she is right or wrong. Some people read books and technical papers when they are young, entirely on their own, and more importantly, sometimes they understand them enough to form their own opinions on the subject that are every bit as valid as those of the experts.


complete Horsepucky. You are suggesting that someone who might read a few articles in Scientific American has as qualified an opinion as someone who spent 10 years of so obtaining a PhD, wrote several dissertations, numbers of peer-reviewed papers and has read hundreds of relevant peer-reviewed articles?

Doesn't happen in reality I'm afraid. I'm sure there are lots of layman out there who think they are brilliant and smarter than such and such professor, doesn't mean they are. Of course, that doesn't seem to stop them from living in their fantasy world.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby The_Toecutter » Mon 16 Dec 2019, 23:51:02

rockdoc123 wrote:complete Horsepucky. You are suggesting that someone who might read a few articles in Scientific American has as qualified an opinion as someone who spent 10 years of so obtaining a PhD, wrote several dissertations, numbers of peer-reviewed papers and has read hundreds of relevant peer-reviewed articles?


I'm suggesting that someone who read a few articles in Scientific American plus perhaps scores or even hundreds of peer reviewed papers and books can have a well-formed opinion on the subject and hold their own in a debate with someone who spent 10 years or so obtaining a PhD, wrote several dissertations, numbers of peer-reviewed papers and has read hundreds of relevant peer-reviewed articles.

When you claim one's opinion is wrong or invalid simply on the basis that they haven't done or read as much as another more educated individual, and on that basis alone, you are committing the logical fallacy of appeal to authority.

https://www.logicalfallacies.org/appeal-to-authority.html
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Tue 17 Dec 2019, 00:02:26

I'm suggesting that someone who read a few articles in Scientific American plus perhaps scores or even hundreds of peer reviewed papers can have a well-formed opinion on the subject and hold their own in a debate with someone who spent 10 years of so obtaining a PhD, wrote several dissertations, numbers of peer-reviewed papers and has read hundreds of relevant peer-reviewed articles.


So now you want us to believe that Greta has read hundreds of peer-reviewed papers? Given she dropped out of school and has probably had little in the way of basic science let alone atmospheric science education and would not have even been exposed to the level of math and stats used in said papers she must be a genius savant. :roll:

When you claim one's opinion is wrong or invalid simply on the basis that they haven't done or read as much as another more educated individual, and on that basis alone, you are committing the logical fallacy of appeal to authority


Not at all. There is some basic education that is required to be able to digest any of the advanced climate literature and someone with a grade 7 education is not there yet. Any bonehead can imagine himself to be a genius and convince himself of that no doubt as well. Doesn't mean he is.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Tue 17 Dec 2019, 00:11:06

Newfie you are probably someone who can speak to this claim. Someone sent me this blog article. The point the author seems to be making is that the catamaran Greta was sailing in was incapable of sailing upwind which he argues meant that to take the trajectory they did required heavy use of the two diesel motors. Hence the journey would be less carbon friendly in reality than flying

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2019/12/figures-green-teen-greta-thunbergs-yacht-used-more-fuel-to-cross-atlantic-than-if-she-flew-from-new-york-to-madrid/?utm_source=Email&utm_medium=the-gateway-pundit&utm_campaign=dailypm&utm_content=daily

I'm not familiar with sailing catamarans of this size so no idea if he is correct.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby Cog » Tue 17 Dec 2019, 00:18:17

Catamarans can tack against the wind but you are adding time to the journey since you are doing diagonals instead of moving in a more direct straight line towards your destination. Newfie is the expert though so he needs to weigh in on this.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby The_Toecutter » Tue 17 Dec 2019, 00:23:19

rockdoc123 wrote:So now you want us to believe that Greta has read hundreds of peer-reviewed papers?


Given her level of interest in the subject matter, it is both plausible and possible that she has. I can't say it with certainty though, given that I know little about her life.

Given she dropped out of school and has probably had little in the way of basic science let alone atmospheric science education and would not have even been exposed to the level of math and stats used in said papers she must be a genius savant. :roll:


I've known of people who were home-schooled that were well-advanced beyond what was normal for their age and grade level, without being some kind of "genius savant". Ever hear of the reporter Ben Swann? He had a Masters degree in History at the age of 16, home schooled entirely up to his entry into University.

There is some basic education that is required to be able to digest any of the advanced climate literature and someone with a grade 7 education is not there yet.


While it is true that an understanding of various mathematical and scientific concepts is necessary for a true understanding of most scientific publications, just because Greta dropped out of school does not mean she stopped learning. One doesn't need an institution to learn on their own, even if such a thing helps and for most is a prerequisite to learning how to learn on one's own. Being above the average or even a few standard deviations apart from it doesn't make one a savant or genius. There is a very large middle ground there between average and genius. The things Greta has said strikes me as something some of my student peers back in high school and early college could have said. Genuine interest in a subject and tenacity can go a long way.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby Plantagenet » Tue 17 Dec 2019, 01:36:43

... you and Plant want to believe she is a genius savant who has become an expert climate scientist in a very few months, expert in all things to do with atmospheric physics, capable of analyzing the hundreds of papers referenced in IPCC AR5


I never posted anything like that, I certainly don't believe that, and its completely dishonest for you to suggest I do.

Crockdoc----you've done it again.....yes, the bottom line here is you've been caught lying once again.

Image

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"Our house is on fire" Greta Thunberg, 12/28/19

"The people in power should listen.....its them I'm criticizing" Greta Thunberg, 12/4/19
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 17 Dec 2019, 05:59:44

NO sailboat can sail directly into the wind, some do better than others. Cats are not particularly good at it but then again neither is our older design monohull. There is an old saying “Gentlemen don’t sail to Windward.”, or “bash” because it is uncomfortable and generally slow and damn hard on the boat let alone crew.

There were extensive threads of sailors following their progress, watching carefully every move they made. Gretas crew were getting frequent weather updates and advice so that they could make the best time possible and avoid serious weather systems. Many folks thought their dash was dangerous because of the normal weather during this time of year.

At NO POINT in any of this discussion did I hear the slightest suggestion that the boat was making more speed, or on a better angle than anticipated, which would suggest they were using the engines for propulsion. There was some thought they were using the engines to charge batteries to make water and run the auto pilot and frig, etc but that was not clear as the boat has solar and wind capabilities.

That’s the long answer.

The short answer is NO, they didn’t cheat.
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