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Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby mousepad » Mon 28 Oct 2019, 10:00:28

Newfie wrote:
mousepad wrote:
The_Toecutter wrote:Not everyone aspires to be rich and powerful.


Show me the one guy who doesn't take more if given the chance.
Show me the one guy who forgoes a pay rise.


Hello!

This may be a bit tangential to your point but it’s quite frequent that folks won’t take a promotion because they don’t want the additional responsibility.

Yes. But that's different.
I meant that I have never seen a guy who forgoes pay increase, with all else remaining the same. Same job title, same responsibilities, same work hours, same vacation, same benefits, same everything.
I understand that there are many people who choose to have lower pay, in exchange for some other benefits, like more time off, less responsibility, option to move to a desired town, working from home, less travel, etc, etc.

I belief everybody tries to get as much as he can and then some more, with the effort, pain and time he's willing to put into it.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Mon 28 Oct 2019, 10:06:46

mousepad wrote:Yes. But that's different.
I meant that I have never seen a guy who forgoes pay increase, with all else remaining the same.

Hey,
One time I did it.
I would end up in higher tax bracket with a lot of paperwork involved as a result, all for about $200 more.
I have told my employer to wait and give me next year few thousands more when it will be worth all the troubles involved.
So they did. :-D
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby mousepad » Mon 28 Oct 2019, 10:13:05

EnergyUnlimited wrote:
mousepad wrote:Yes. But that's different.
I meant that I have never seen a guy who forgoes pay increase, with all else remaining the same.

Hey,
One time I did it.
I would end up in higher tax bracket with a lot of paperwork involved as a result, all for about $200 more.
I have told my employer to wait and give me next year few thousands more when it will be worth all the troubles involved.
So they did. :-D

So you didn't, then :-)
You did so for the benefit of not having to do additional paperwork.

Show me the guy that says:
Don't give me raise, because I'm happy as I am, I don't need more. More money will only corrupt me.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby Plantagenet » Mon 28 Oct 2019, 11:14:21

mousepad wrote:Show me the guy that says:
Don't give me raise, because I'm happy as I am, I don't need more. More money will only corrupt me.


Image
Toecutter has bought into the old communist lie that under socialism the workers will become a "new man" who will no longer care about his own comforts or helping his family, but will instead live only to work for the state and who's only wish will be to serve his fellow workers.

The 20th century disproved this crazy idea, but there are still a few people out there like Toecutter who buy into this kind of nonsense. Toecutter seems to think the "new man" who doesn't care about getting ahead will be a product of a return to an utopia that never existed where everyone is equal based on imaginary paleolithic social principles instead of everyone being equal due to Marxist socialist principles, but the basic idea is the same.

Cheers!
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 28 Oct 2019, 12:00:13

Mousepad,

Sorry, I lost the thread of your argument. What point are you trying to prove with your question?
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby asg70 » Mon 28 Oct 2019, 12:17:16

The_Toecutter wrote:Why not?


Because when people say that two candidates are the same what they're really doing is saying they want a candidate with an extreme (and unworkable) platform. In other words, they can't be satisfied.

When it comes to the range of policies from politicians who actually CAN get elected, those differences matter. For instance, one would assume that Clinton's environmental policy would roughly follow Obamas, and although not ideal, are still far superior to Trump's. Witness Trump rolling back every environmental protection enacted under Obama. Does that matter? Not in YOUR world because only if draconian measures were instituted would it pass your litmus test. How is that interpretation valuable? It ISN'T. It's just your way of complaining that you're on an ideological island and can't see your brand of candidate elected.

The_Toecutter wrote:Neither candidate came close to representing the views of the American people


Your views don't represent those of the American people, Toecutter. Plus, your grievances are almost all irrelevant to the core thread topic of the environment. So who really gives a rat's ass?

The_Toecutter wrote:but Hillary's proposals were not radical enough


If they were, she would be impeached rather than Trump. Politics is the art of compromise. You have no concept of what is actually workable within the system as it is now. Your enemy is your fellow voter, man. He will not support your "radical" proposals.


The_Toecutter wrote:Iceland


You know what pulled Iceland out of its problems? TOURISM! So while it crows about powering itself on geothermal it is bankrolled by Plant-style frequent-Flyers. So you want to highlight Iceland as a success story?

The_Toecutter wrote:they are probably not solvable without also addressing the grotesque level of social stratification that exists


You can't solve environmental problems unless the public as a whole takes ownership of their environmental footprints. Wealth redistribution and lifting the poor out of poverty will not address this. It will either make it worse or be a wash. So what I see here is you trying to piggyback social justice issues on top of the larger problem of the environment rather than keeping things in proper proportion.


The_Toecutter wrote:I don't want what the rich have.


Thou dost protest too much.



The_Toecutter wrote:I feel entitled to the right to exist without being exploited every step of the way.


Your feeling of being "exploited" is blown way out of proportion.

The_Toecutter wrote:And tat right shouldn’t just be for myself, but for everyone.


Savior complex again.

The_Toecutter wrote:We're awash in more resources than ever, but the gains have not been distributed equitably


So let's burn every hydrocarbon while we can, right? (See thread topic).

The_Toecutter wrote:The Earth could likely sustain double or more the current population if they were all at the living standard of a sub-Saharan African living a bare subsistence lifestyle, not that this would be desirable.


Your point being, what? Let's strive for some marxist utopian fantasy to the last minute and THEN head for the bunker?

The_Toecutter wrote:The lifeboat ethics we have to deal with are twisted and warped, and are not exclusively the result of nature, but of man-made problems stemming from the greed of a few.


Empty finger-pointing.

The_Toecutter wrote:Class warfare is inseparable from this dilemma, and if we had rational and/or real leadership, the solution would be obvious.


The solution being...drive everyone down to sub sahara africa levels? How about 1 child policies or worse? Al Bartlett's right hand list anyone?

You're asking for the impossible, which is a humane and just drawdown. It ain't gonna happen. Make peace with it.

The_Toecutter wrote:The immigrants often come to the U.S. as a consequence of their countries having been brought to ruin by U.S. meddling.


Which is a convenient scapegoat. Think of how much damage Chavez did to Venezuela, all along the way using the US as a useful way to deflect blame from his own mismanagement.

The_Toecutter wrote:it is undeniable that the U.S. is among the worst butchers in history


See how you keep veering off-topic on pointless anti-US tirades? What is important to you? Making your liberal heart bleed and playing your tiniest violin over past so-called atrocities or dealing with the looming malthusian catastrophe?

The_Toecutter wrote:Having run out of other nations to conquer, the U.S. has turned its sights inward at conquering its own people in every aspect of their existence, for profit.


I really think you should leave the US if you are this self-loathing. Try Cuba first.

The_Toecutter wrote:Not all Americans were stupid in this sense. In fact, the majority of eligible voters did not even vote for Reagan, only a plurality.


That's how our system works. Electoral college and all..

Image

The_Toecutter wrote:A conspiracy may not be needed to explain this, but it doesn't mean it wasn't present, either.


Iran wasn't the only reason why Carter lost. Reagan was an ASPIRATIONAL candidate. Carter was a humble president who asked us to turn down our thermostats.

To whatever extent we elect leaders as figureheads based on our national identity, Reagan was more appealing, period.

(Not that any of this has to do with Great Thunberg's Voyage. But flail away you shall.)

The_Toecutter wrote:Doom is highly probable, but not inevitable. The future is unknown. 2008 taught me that.


Doom is just delayed. I mean, I don't even follow all the AGW threads on this forum anymore because it's become too apocalyptic. I know the score. You have to be living in a dreamworld to think that we'll get through this without a significant population crash.

The_Toecutter wrote:a selfish few insist on using the lifeboat


As humble as your existence may be, you indirectly benefit from the prosperity of the US which comes at the rest of the world's expense. You don't really "count" that, but you should. So you're just drawing moral lines in such a way that absolves you from guilt but guilt-trips those above you.

The healthier approach is to just accept that people are motivated by self-interest and just scramble for your place on that lifeboat...because everyone else is going to anyway.

The_Toecutter wrote:You say I’m in the anger stage, but I’ve long ago accepted that oil will peak


That's not acceptance.

Acceptance is that feeling when you're playing chess and you've just been told that you've been checkmated. You didn't see it coming and initially you're like BS, that's not checkmate. Then you scan the board (bargaining) and then you finally concede that it's hopeless.

THAT is acceptance.

Where we are now it's like the losing side on a chess game where the only hope of winning is to maybe queen your last pawn (think fusion power and geoengineering). But while you're waiting for a miracle you're just on the run and trying to stall the inevitable for as long as possible.

The_Toecutter wrote:they may make an impact if tried.


You know I'm an EV advocate. Yes, they make an impact, and should be encouraged. Just too little too late. Oh, and btw, they present a contrast between Trump and Hillary you ignore, because Trump is hostile to renewables.

The_Toecutter wrote:”A very poor kid came up to me after a talk and said 'I want to go blow up a factory.' I asked how old he was and he said 17. I said 'have you ever had sex?' He said 'no.' I said 'just remember if you get caught you aren't going to have sex for twenty years at least.' That's not saying that one person having sex is worth the salmon. I'm not saying it's a reason not to act, I'm saying don't be stupid.


The same Derrick Jensen that writes children's books about eco-terrorism. The guy is a douche who mainly appeals to trustifarian SJW college students.

The_Toecutter wrote:Being stupid is not on my list of things to do.


Not today, but ideation precedes action.

The_Toecutter wrote:Your own writings have their own extremist tendencies


Not planning to throw molotov cocktails anytime soon.

The_Toecutter wrote:that is not why I post here.


Then what motivates you?

The_Toecutter wrote:As for some kind of tragic ending, it wouldn’t be much of a change from the way my life has been anyway


And such sentiment is why I'm concerned. Those with the most hopeless attitudes are the ones who do something "stupid" as you call it.

The_Toecutter wrote:There is no law and order.


Sure there is. If there was no law and order the streets would be like post-Katrina. Maybe you would like that, though. You could snag a free big-screen TV that way.

As for Assange, I don't give a rat's ass about that a-hole.

The_Toecutter wrote:I know for a fact that this friend didn’t commit the assault he is accused of since we were working on an aluminum body for a custom 3-wheeled electric vehicle we designed at the time the “victim” claims he assaulted her.


You do realize that false-accusations of this sort are a function of the #MeToo madness which is ultimately a matter of lefty SJW overreach, right? Nothing to do with 1%ers or fat-cats. So that doesn't jive with your narrative.

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Last edited by asg70 on Mon 28 Oct 2019, 12:27:23, edited 1 time in total.

BOLD PREDICTIONS
-Billions are on the verge of starvation as the lockdown continues. (yoshua, 5/20/20)

HALL OF SHAME:
-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby mousepad » Mon 28 Oct 2019, 12:22:35

Newfie wrote:Mousepad,

Sorry, I lost the thread of your argument. What point are you trying to prove with your question?


It was in response to toecutter and his "rich are all greedy can-never-get-enough bastards" vs "poor are content, happy do-good-ers". I wanted to make a point that poors are nothing but rich who didn't yet get a chance to grab their "fair share". But then again, maybe I missed his point completely. I admit I just skimmed over his manifesto, latching on to some keywords. 8)
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby mousepad » Mon 28 Oct 2019, 12:30:25

asg70 wrote:far superior to Trump's.


Just today I placed a large order for plastics for our manufacturing plant.
Usually we order from a Chinese company. Due to tariffs, it is now cheaper to source from a US company.

Thank you, Trump, for allowing us to order locally again. What the West consumes should be produced in the West. With western salaries, western benefits and western environmental laws. Stop this outsourcing/globalization madness!
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Mon 28 Oct 2019, 13:16:03

Just today I placed a large order for plastics for our manufacturing plant.
Usually we order from a Chinese company. Due to tariffs, it is now cheaper to source from a US company.

Thank you, Trump, for allowing us to order locally again. What the West consumes should be produced in the West. With western salaries, western benefits and western environmental laws. Stop this outsourcing/globalization madness!


what is madness is you think it is doing a service for your manufacturing plant to pay more money for a necessary product. That is nothing more than a voluntary tax. The duty of any publicly-traded company is to seek out lower costs and better efficiencies. Buying the same product at a higher price with no additional benefit is the antithesis of that goal. This is why companies go to bid on services. Sometimes you will pay more for a particular service because there is an added benefit or a reduction in risk of performance but you never, ever pay more without getting something in return. That is what the tariffs force US companies to do unless they can find other cheap sources overseas. Producing goods in the US or Canada for that matter have become generally expensive over the years which is why companies went overseas in the first place....that is good business.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby mousepad » Mon 28 Oct 2019, 13:38:52

rockdoc123 wrote:why companies went overseas in the first place....that is good business.


That's true. It might be good business. But good business doesn't mean good planet, good life, good environment, fair society.
I'm in favor of producing goods where they are consumed, as local as possible.
I'm in favor of having goods manufactured by people that enjoy the same work benefits, protection, chance of retirement and rights as the ones consuming them.

Outsourcing dirty, dangerous work to 3rd world and exploiting the 3rd world is not something I believe is right.

That's why I'm so happy that we can source locally. And who knows? Maybe automation drives the cost down to under Chinese levels? Or even better, maybe INCREASED costs will result in consumers buying LESS of the product. Because consuming LESS is absolutely positively the best for the planet. Don't you agree?

I think saving earth from ourselves is more important than getting a plastic product a few cents cheaper.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Mon 28 Oct 2019, 13:47:03

mousepad wrote:That's why I'm so happy that we can source locally. And who knows? Maybe automation drives the cost down to under Chinese levels?

Unlikely.
China is overtaking US in many aspects of automation and high tech in general.
Within a decade or so they will be far ahead of US.
Hence frantic american attacks on Hauwei etc, just to extend status quo for a bit longer.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Mon 28 Oct 2019, 13:48:00

mousepad wrote:
rockdoc123 wrote:why companies went overseas in the first place....that is good business.


That's true. It might be good business. But good business doesn't mean good planet, good life, good environment, fair society.
I'm in favor of producing goods where they are consumed, as local as possible.
I'm in favor of having goods manufactured by people that enjoy the same work benefits, protection, chance of retirement and rights as the ones consuming them.

Well, that all sounds wonderful in theory.

But in the real world there are things like the law of comparative advantage. There is a reason world trade is a massive and growing thing.

So then a value judgement becomes important: How much wealth should be given up to allow noble goals such as you desire? Should everyone be forced into that economic loss, or only the ones who share such ideals?

That's why I favor education and things like farmers markets, and like it when stores offer American made goods, even at a higher price (as a CHOICE).

Choices are good. However, forcing things isn't necessarily so good -- especially when some time YOUR ox gets gored because of an ideal you don't happen to agree with.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby mousepad » Mon 28 Oct 2019, 14:07:07

Outcast_Searcher wrote:So then a value judgement becomes important: How much wealth should be given up to allow noble goals such as you desire? Should everyone be forced into that economic loss, or only the ones who share such ideals?


That is true. Not all people share the same values and one has to find a happy medium to consider the needs, goals, values of everybody, not only one group.
But in the end, isn't that what a nation is already all about? It's a bunch of people who have to agree on some "common" values.

And that's the same thing with globalization. The nation has to decide what it values more. Cheap stuff in the short term for the masses. Or a bit more expensive stuff but made with local workers abiding local laws

I have only one voice, one opinion. And I certainly don't claim mine is the right one. But I still think it's morally wrong to have Nike shoes made in 3rd world factories under atrocious conditions. Do you think it's right to do so, just to get your shoes cheaper?
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby mousepad » Mon 28 Oct 2019, 14:11:46

EnergyUnlimited wrote:Within a decade or so they will be far ahead of US.


Do you think so?
I remember the big Japanese scare. Everybody was afraid the Japanese are taking over the world.

But even if the Chinese are going to be far ahead of the US. So what?
Do you think it's important to be "number 1" to live a happy life? I don't think so. I think there are many more important things in life than having the largest GDP in the world.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Mon 28 Oct 2019, 14:53:00

mousepad wrote:
EnergyUnlimited wrote:Within a decade or so they will be far ahead of US.


Do you think so?
I remember the big Japanese scare. Everybody was afraid the Japanese are taking over the world.

But even if the Chinese are going to be far ahead of the US. So what?
Do you think it's important to be "number 1" to live a happy life? I don't think so. I think there are many more important things in life than having the largest GDP in the world.

Japs are too constrained on their islands but Chinese have their ambitions, means (1.4 billions of IQ~105 peoples as opposed to US and its 320 millions of IQ~98 citizens) and well organized system capable to push their agenda.
They have already overtaken US in number of critical technologies like quantum encryption in working communication systems, hypersonic missile technology, 5G networks or many aspects of civil engineering to name few examples.
They are also free of "progressive disease" which is currently destroying fabric of american society.
US is still a leader but developing trends are to its detriment.

Events which are developing in California are truly dystopian. Few years ago I believed that such developments in the US are next to impossible.
It looks like abdication of rationality and intelligent thought there.

One may be happy *not* being no 1, but US and its citizenry will ot take it kindly. Too entitled people out there.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Mon 28 Oct 2019, 15:18:37

I'm in favor of producing goods where they are consumed, as local as possible.
I'm in favor of having goods manufactured by people that enjoy the same work benefits, protection, chance of retirement and rights as the ones consuming them.


Good luck with that imaginary Utopian world. In the real world, companies are owned and run by individuals who are doing so to make a living for themselves and their families, and if they are a publicly-traded company they are doing so to make their shareholders profit. They are not doing so out of some altruistic goal.

Outsourcing dirty, dangerous work to 3rd world and exploiting the 3rd world is not something I believe is right.

So you are saying manufacturing by firms like Apple, Cisco and IBM (3 of the 5 largest US outsourcers to China) are somehow dirty and dangerous? You’ve been watching too much TV. :roll:

I think saving earth from ourselves is more important than getting a plastic product a few cents cheaper.


Well good for you. If your management and shareholders think the same way then that is good too. I highly doubt it though. Nobody invests in business to lose money. Perhaps you should approach your CEO and tell him you think it is good that the company has to pay more for their materials and see what his response is. And if you were truly interested in "saving the earth" you would give some thought to the irony of working in the plastics industry.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby mousepad » Mon 28 Oct 2019, 15:54:21

rockdoc123 wrote:They are not doing so out of some altruistic goal.


That is true. But what if the cheapest available option is actually LOCAL?
Do you think in that case the company would still go to china?
Thanks to Trumps tariffs, the supplier from Indiana offered BETTER prices than the Chinese company could. And look what happened. I was the first to jump Chinese ship and order from the CHEAPER source. All in the name of maximizing shareholder value.
You get it? It's all about making the local, cleaner, morally superior option, the cheaper option. All else will follow automatically.


So you are saying manufacturing by firms like Apple, Cisco and IBM (3 of the 5 largest US outsourcers to China) are somehow dirty and dangerous? You’ve been watching too much TV. :roll:

Maybe I have watched too much TV, that could be. I have never in person visited one of those places.
I have seen many documentaries though, about workers having to handle poisonous materials. About workers who got insured on the job, and all those things. Do you think it was all fake? Do you think there are no poor girls in India making t-shirts for western nations, under atrocious conditions?

I think saving earth from ourselves is more important than getting a plastic product a few cents cheaper.


Well good for you.

No this is where you're WRONG. Saving the world is not only good for me, but also for you. Because I think you also live on earth, aren't you?

If your management and shareholders think the same way then that is good too. I highly doubt it though. Nobody invests in business to lose money.

Who is talking about loosing money? Companies made lots of money way before globalization was a thing.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby mousepad » Mon 28 Oct 2019, 16:00:30

EnergyUnlimited wrote: Chinese have their ambitions, means (1.4 billions of IQ~105 peoples as opposed to US and its 320 millions of IQ~98 citizens) and well organized system capable to push their agenda.


I just visited china on a quick business trip regarding high tech solutions.
I can confirm the Chinese are just as human as you and I. They have the same limitations, petty issues, infighting as we do. You don't have to be afraid of the Chinese. Once their growth economy stalls, all hell will break loose. Hell, the Chinese can't even quell a small protest in one of their holdings. Can you imagine what happens if 1 Billion of them take to the streets?
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby Plantagenet » Mon 28 Oct 2019, 16:21:00

mousepad wrote: china .....Can you imagine what happens if 1 Billion of them take to the streets?


One billion Chinese are not going to simultaneously take to the streets. The vast majority of people in China, particularly in the dominant Han population, are very patriotic and nationalistic and strongly support the central government.

And the Chinese Communist Party is more than capable of dealing with smaller numbers of people who dissent. They've successfully annexed Tibet, in spite of resistance from the almost 1 million people who make up the native population of Tibet. Now they are subduing the much larger Uigher Moslem population in western China, with an estimated one million Uigher people being currently under arrest and held in re-education camps.

The pro-democracy demonstrators in Hong Kong haven't all been clubbed into submission yet, but you can see the level of repression rising week by week. Currently the Chinese are targeting individual leaders of the demos in Hong Kong for severe beatings. If that doesn't work then the repression will be ratcheted up to some higher level.

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The vast majority of people in China, particularly in the dominant Han population, are very patriotic and nationalistic and strongly support the central government.

Cheers!
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby mousepad » Mon 28 Oct 2019, 16:26:26

Plantagenet wrote:The vast majority of people in China, particularly in the dominant Han population, are very patriotic and nationalistic and strongly support the central government.
Cheers!


You would be surprised how fast patriotism and tolerance go out the window once growth is below expectations.
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