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Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby Ibon » Wed 11 Sep 2019, 20:06:07

GHung wrote:But, yes, there was a time when I was part of the great consumption wave because of a lot of forcing, until I got my mind right. It just never made sense to me.


You might be an early adapter. When the reward / benefit ratio declines even further more may simply follow suit, out of both choice and necessity.

You would like the culture here in Panama. Panamanians rate very high on happiness but rather low on ambition. They enjoy their families and friends and a less accelerated life.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby Revi » Thu 12 Sep 2019, 06:50:23

The climate strike starts next Friday and continues the week after. I wonder if the mainstream news media will publicize it? I hope she gets some coverage. It would be nice....
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby Plantagenet » Thu 12 Sep 2019, 16:39:04

Revi wrote:The climate strike starts next Friday and continues the week after. I wonder if the mainstream news media will publicize it? I hope she gets some coverage. It would be nice....


Greta Thunberg has been going on strike every friday, and many kids have joined her on fridays to strike for climate. The idea of the global climate strike is for adults who are concerned about climate change to join the kids on strike. Actions and demos are being planning all over the world for September 20th....sign up at the link or look and see what is planned for your area.

globalclimatestrike.net

The UN will convene on climate change on Sept. 23rd. Its very important to pressure the UN to do something more substantive on climate change then the phony Paris Accords, hence the global climate strike.

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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby diemos » Thu 12 Sep 2019, 21:25:06

Tragedy of the commons, baby.

Every gram of carbon that I virtuously don't burn will just be sold to and burned by someone else. Individual virtue will not keep a single gram of carbon in the ground unburned.

Everything that can be dug up and burned will be dug up and burned. The only open questions are when it will be burned, who will burn it, and for what.

Putting alternative energy infrastructure in place is what will keep the most people alive through the bottleneck. Trying to keep carbon in the ground is a fool's errand.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby Plantagenet » Thu 12 Sep 2019, 21:38:07

diemos wrote:Every gram of carbon that I virtuously don't burn will just be sold to and burned by someone else. Individual virtue will not keep a single gram of carbon in the ground unburned.

Everything that can be dug up and burned will be dug up and burned. The only open questions are when it will be burned, who will burn it, and for what.


Exactly right. The carbon footprint of any individual is mathematically insignificant. The same principle holds for entire countries——the US could stop all CO2 emissions tomorrow and the entire US CO2 contribution to global warming would be replaced by increases in CO2 emissions from China, India, etc. less than a decade.

THe only way to address this global problem is to have a global solution. Thats why Greta is calling for a global climate strike to pressure the UN to take this issue seriously. Global Warming has to addressed by a new global climate treaty that mandates CO2 reductions from every single country, producing CO2 reductions on a global basis.

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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby Ibon » Thu 12 Sep 2019, 22:07:16

Plantagenet wrote:
THe only way to address this global problem is to have a global solution. Thats why Greta is calling for a global climate strike to pressure the UN to take this issue seriously. Global Warming has to addressed by a new global climate treaty that mandates CO2 reductions from every single country, producing CO2 reductions on a global basis.



OK. Let's approach this the way a rock climber climbs a wall, Step by small step, finding the route. How to achieve this global alliance. Here again is what I posted above:

Ibon wrote:The regulation required to do this makes sovereign nations have to sacrifice a part of their autonomy, has to make individual sacrifice a part of the freedom to consume, has to make all of us submit to alliances that are global in nature. This the only way for the remaining commons to be respected.

But all of this has to happen exactly at a time when distrust of the state is at its highest, when distrust of international organizations is at its highest, when your government is seen as incompetent and corrupt, when we see sentiments in the collective almost anarchist toward federal regulations, state regulations, international regulations.


So Plant or anyone else. How do we overcome this impasse? How do we get all nations to sacrifice a little bit of their sovereignty for the greater good? At exactly a time when nationalist sentiments are growing and credibility of international organizations is weak.

So what are the steps. Where are the cracks and footholds?

I am posing the question but not attempting to answer this.

I will say that I have come quite a long way on this journey in understanding the severity of climate change and the necessity that humanity pulls it together to make this somehow work. But I do not see the way.

Anyone want to take a stab at it?
Last edited by Ibon on Thu 12 Sep 2019, 22:12:07, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby Ibon » Thu 12 Sep 2019, 22:09:46

To add a point. I am allowing that little girl to penetrate my cynicism. I am allowing her vision to actually lead the way. I am humbling myself to her wisdom. Seriously.

And I ask everyone here. Take a moment, drop the cynicism, approach this as clear headed as you can. How do we achieve this?
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby GHung » Fri 13 Sep 2019, 00:01:24

A carbon-based global currency.
Blessed are the Meek, for they shall inherit nothing but their Souls. - Anonymous Ghung Person
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby Revi » Fri 13 Sep 2019, 06:59:01

It seems like she is mobilizing the youth. I don't blame them for being angry. What if you were told at 15 that because of what your parents and their parents did you might not have a future. I don't think it would be good news. At 60 I think it's a tragedy, but it's going to affect the younger people because I may get to see some of the show, but I'm out of here before the worst of it.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 13 Sep 2019, 07:05:32

Ibon,

I recently looked at a world map showing where plastic bags were banned or restricted. In some small way it is reflective of where in the world people are showing demonstrable concern about the environment. It ain’t the enlightened Western Culture.

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It strikes me that in the USA the political elite are so focused on the election cycle and promoting themselves that they are completely detached from reality. Economist are also in the la la land of eternal economic growth. SOME business leaders are showing a bit more awareness. I suspect the rest of Western Culture is on about the same position.

Where then would our leadership come from? I’m postulating that our best chance for reform will come from the pulpit. This is a time when there is a social leadership vacuum that religion could step into, to use their moral authority to help us be better folks.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 13 Sep 2019, 07:14:02

GHung wrote:A carbon-based global currency.


If this would mean nations giving up their own currency this would never fly. Not in the short term. Maybe a universal carbon tax for all fossil fuels consumed and this tax being used to finance the massive infrastructure conversion over to the electrification of transportation. Not my area of expertise but building into the price of fossil fuels the environmental cost through tax would result in alternatives being more price competitive. Of course at the scale of consumption none of this would work without radical lifestyle changes in energy consumption habits.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 13 Sep 2019, 07:22:31

Newfie wrote:Ibon,

I recently looked at a world map showing where plastic bags were banned or restricted. In some small way it is reflective of where in the world people are showing demonstrable concern about the environment. It ain’t the enlightened Western Culture.

Image




You might have noticed that Panama in on the list of nations that banned plastic bags. That just went into effect July 2019 this year. It has been interesting watching this transition. In the beginning everyone forgetting to bring their own tote bags when going shopping, ourselves included. A minor painful adjustment but already within 90 days you can see how everyone has adapted. An important point to understand why you see so many developing countries on that list is because waste disposal in developing countries is often horribly under funded and there is a lack of garbage trucks in most areas and so folks burn or just discard in informal landfills their plastic and waste. WInd picks it up and the whole landscape becomes littered with flying plastic bags. By banning plastic you avoid the necessity and cost of waste disposal improving your garbage pick up. Metal can be recycled, organics composted, paper burned, glass buried. Plastics have been the most difficult waste to handle for developing countries. Banning it is the most cost effective way for a poor country to deal with this. Reminds me a bit of how cell phones in developing countries leap frogged ahead of many developed countries because of the cost of putting in land lines in rural areas.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 13 Sep 2019, 07:37:58

Newfie wrote:

Where then would our leadership come from? I’m postulating that our best chance for reform will come from the pulpit. This is a time when there is a social leadership vacuum that religion could step into, to use their moral authority to help us be better folks.


I have many times posted here the spiritual renaissance that is long overdue in holding with reverence our mother earth and making the necessary sacrifices to live by this creed. I have always assumed that the missing ingredient is harrowing consequences. Religions use fire and brimstone as part of their theology to make followers obey their commandments. This I have always assumed will eventually be the role of the Overshoot Predator.

To date there are still not enough tangible painful consequences of the damage and havoc we are causing for the truth that "we reap what we sow" to fully enter the zeit geist. But we are close.

Most of us here believe that we are entering into the early opening acts of witnessing increasing instabilities . The opening of the chapter where we start really seeing painful consequences. My guess is that parallel with this we will begin to see collective recognition that something has to be done. The emergence of this "Greta" phenomenon might be the early signs of this.

For how many years have we been focused on the science and the need for science to awaken the masses? It is not the role of science to awaken the masses. Science provides the evidence and facts. Awakening the masses is the job of the "Greta"s, religions, folk music, politicians who are not corrupted by lobbyists, celebrities, unbiased media etc.

Policy never rises in a vacuum. It rises when the masses put enough pressure on those in power. Just in the same way labor rights happened through organizing workers demanding 8 hour work days and weekends off 100 years ago. Climate change policy has to come as a result of the masses awakening and demanding change. That is why the direction for me is a massive folk movement. That is why I am not cynical about this "Greta" phenomenon. It could be the beginning of something that eventually leads to a revolution of sorts
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 13 Sep 2019, 07:51:06

Revi wrote:It seems like she is mobilizing the youth.


Not only the youth. You cried Revi. She moved me too.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 13 Sep 2019, 12:07:32

Ibon wrote:
Revi wrote:It seems like she is mobilizing the youth.


Not only the youth. You cried Revi. She moved me too.


I didn't cry but I think she has a very valid point. Children inherit the world their parents created, and we're leaving the world in sorry condition for the next generation. Greta's idea for children (and adults) to go on climate strike to pressure the UN to finally take real action against climate change is a sensible idea.

Back in the day I was lucky enough to be one of the US "science" delegates to a UNFCC COP meeting. Scientists have been pointing out the dangers of global warming for decades---but the cowardly lying politicians won't take real action. A UN treaty requiring global CO2 emission reductions is the only way to address the global nature of the problem, i.e. the release of CO2 and other greenhouse gases into the atmosphere. This is a key moment with the UN holding a session on climate change in their NY headquarters. Greta's idea for a global climate strike on september 20 to pressure the UN to take real action isn't likely to succeed, but its "right action"----its what we citizens should do to pressure them. Then the onus is on the UN and the politicians to take action.

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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 13 Sep 2019, 12:15:04

Plantagenet wrote: Then the onus is on the UN and the politicians to take action.

Cheers!


That's fine but I don't think it is just top down. The onus is actually just as much on a folks movement, a social upheaval of citizens demanding this. In other words citizens in each country rallying their governments to act.

It is easy to name the politicians as feckless but what else do you expect if citizens are not demanding action.

There is an important interplay here between citizens and their governments (leaders) to create the necessary momentum. One will not act without the other.

That is why this Greta movement has the potential to spark something.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 13 Sep 2019, 12:18:54

The pulpit can educate as well as any one else. And I’ll take any help anywhere I can find it.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 13 Sep 2019, 13:12:57

Ibon wrote:
There is an important interplay here between citizens and their governments (leaders) to create the necessary momentum. One will not act without the other.


Thats not quite true. The UN has acted on lots of things without citizen pressure. For instance, the UN treaty to stop production of hydrofluorocarbons to save the ozone layer was done purely in response to scientists documenting destruction of the ozone layer...there was no massive citizen's movement pressuring the UN to ban hydroflorocarbons. So the UN can act and can do the right thing. But climate change is different....the scientists have documented the danger and the real damage that CO2 and CH4 etc. are doing over and over again for decades now, but the UN has refused to act.

Ibon wrote:That is why this Greta movement has the potential to spark something.


Yup. That is exactly my point. The UN has refused to act on climate change, so a citizen based campaign to pressure them to act is needed. Greta is the agent acting now to catalyze a citizen's movement. Her school strike has attracted international attention. Now its time for a citizens strike, where adults join Greta and the children on strike to pressure the UN and the lying and cowardly politicians who try to hide behind phony deals like the paris climate accords to change course and take real, substantive action.

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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 13 Sep 2019, 13:59:26

Plantagenet wrote:
Ibon wrote:
There is an important interplay here between citizens and their governments (leaders) to create the necessary momentum. One will not act without the other.


Thats not quite true. The UN has acted on lots of things without citizen pressure. For instance, the UN treaty to stop production of hydrofluorocarbons to save the ozone layer was done purely in response to scientists documenting destruction of the ozone layer...there was no massive citizen's movement pressuring the UN to ban hydroflorocarbons. So the UN can act and can do the right thing. But climate change is different....the scientists have documented the danger and the real damage that CO2 and CH4 etc. are doing over and over again for decades now, but the UN has refused to act.


The example of hydroflurocarbons often is brought up as an example of effective legislation. Why did the UN act so swiftly? Because it addressed a single industry and there were replacements. It had no significant impact on any countries economy. Call it a uni dimensional issue that was easy to correct.Each member state of the UN could sign it knowing that back home there would be no serious repercussions.

Climate change is a whole other kettle of fish, cutting back on burning fossil fuels cuts right into the lifeblood of economies, of infrastructure decisions. The impact is multi dimensional and yes it does to a degree effect the autonomy of each country. Going all the way back to Rio, why again and again to we see anemic agreements that have no teeth? Because member states that are part of the UN know they cannot vote in legislation that would be mandatory and binding and have teeth because of resistance back in their home countries.

This is the reason that a bottoms up movement from citizens demanding action is an integral part of forcing a UN to make binding agreements. Member states of the UN knowing that there are strong demands back in their home countries by citizens demanding action.

The Paris agreement is a perfect example. You can blame the UN or Obama but you almost have to be tone deaf if you don't consider the opposition at that time from the republicans as well as the general apathy of citizens. The final agreement is a perfect reflection of that. Obama was the president when the Paris agreement was signed and Trump then cancelled it. Neither party felt the heat from a rising public demanding action. At that time from the democrats there was more heat around LGBT issues actually. Pathetic.

Without a bottom up ground swell of citizens demanding action we will never see any effective agreements. Forget it.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 13 Sep 2019, 14:51:57

What’s the difference between a “ground swell” and a “mob”?
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