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Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 06 Sep 2019, 15:36:21

Bernie Sanders just blamed global warming on poor people in third world countries not having enough abortions resulting in population growth.

bernie-sanders-call-for-third-world-population-control-through-abortion

Everybody wants to blame somebody else for global warming. Very few people seem to be able to comprehend that its all of us. While Bernie is right that population growth results in more CO2 emissions. so do plastic straws and airplane flights and even posting on the internet. People who buy new cars emit huge amounts of CO2 and so do people who drink imported wine and beer. But farming also emits CO2. So does commuting to work. Even bicycling down the road required CO2 emissions to manufacture the bike and ship to your local shop, not to mention that the pavement itself is made from fossil fuels and built using fossil fuels. Everything we do has some impact on the climate, because everything we do required power or transpiration or uses infrasture that is based on power consumption and fossil fuel use. Fossil fuel use and greenhouse gas emissions are ubiquitous in modern society. and the only way to mitigate it is with some kind of global climate treaty that restricts greenhouse gas emissions from every country.

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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 06 Sep 2019, 17:25:33

What ASG70 mentioned in a previous post, this is all part of the tragedy of the commons. Because the commons is not owned or regulated everyone feels that they have the right to still fly in airplanes, buy new cars, consume at will, be wasteful etc.

Until we all commit together to a common sacrifice each and every one of us will feel entitled to consume with impunity.

There is no demographic that is more responsible than another so until we agree to hold the commons as a valued asset that all are committed to protect we will just burn burn burn away.

Until we bring the commons, the air we breath, up to the status of a legal entity at par with individuals and corporations, we will not make any progress. Like the endangered species act for our atmosphere.

The regulation required to do this makes sovereign nations have to sacrifice a part of their autonomy, has to make individual sacrifice a part of the freedom to consume, has to make all of us submit to alliances that are global in nature. This the only way for the remaining commons to be respected.

But all of this has to happen exactly at a time when distrust of the state is at its highest, when distrust of international organizations is at its highest, when your government is seen as incompetent and corrupt, when we see sentiments in the collective almost anarchist toward federal regulations, state regulations, international regulations.

These young generations emerging that are demanding action, what will their position be toward submitting toward regulations by the state, toward self sacrifice for the greater good?

Us old obsolete baby boomers, whether your politics is to the right or to the left, simply are so steeped in wanting our cake and eating it too, we are all from a generation of entitlements that actually is anathema to any kind of sacrifice for the greater good. In this regard we are united in the extreme position we take with our entitlements and in this regard the differences politically between the right and the left is minuscule.

The young generations emerging just might be different. The zeitgeist of these generations may break the having of your cake and the eating it too that is the hallmark of all baby boomers, where ever you are on the political spectrum.
Last edited by Ibon on Fri 06 Sep 2019, 17:44:33, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby dohboi » Fri 06 Sep 2019, 17:28:35

Wow, P, way to totally mis-represent a very clear position!

Sanders pointed out that US policies are inhibiting the rights of women in 3rd world countries to decide how many kids they want to have.

Nothing about blaming them.

Try some other lie, now, maybe? :)
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 06 Sep 2019, 18:22:22

Let me further explain how fucked up we are.

If or when you read my previous post and conclude that there is no way in hell that nations will submit to international agreements and there is no way that nations will elevate our atmosphere to have the same rights as individuals and corporations, when you fully acknowledge that this will never happen, guess what then happens?

You say Fuck It, I am going to buy that new car, fly to that far away destination, eat tons of beef.

You see how easy it is to have your cake and eat it too?

How easy to let yourself off the hook?

Damn easy.

And you don't have to even blame the uber rich, the meat eaters, the republican party. All you have to do is realize that the collective wont submit so why the fuck should I .

This is the internal dialogue that most have in regards to any kind of self sacrifice. With very few exceptions.

The following generations? We'll see.... or not since most of us obsolete baby boomers will be dead.
Last edited by Ibon on Fri 06 Sep 2019, 20:05:11, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 06 Sep 2019, 18:47:36

So this is not an ultimate answer but it is a start:
1 Start at home, in your own country, fix that first then lecture others
2 Realize that being in debt is a bad thing
3 Realize that when you buy stuff a portion goes to the rich, it’s like a voluntary tax supporting the rich
4 Use less stuff, fix things, make stuff last
5 Eat down the food chain, less meat, healthier
6 Get outside, exercise, take a walk in the woods
7 turn off TV, gizmos, read
8 Do what you can to reduce waste, use less energy, conserve
9 Downsize, smaller car, house - smaller payments

All taken together won’t “fix” climate change, but it’s all stuff we can agree to without argument, mostly. If we all dis this it would start a sea change, it would collapse the economy, it would force the governments to adapt to a new economic reality, it would move us in the right direction.

Gotta start somewhere. Why not here.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 06 Sep 2019, 20:05:55

I would bet most of us on this site are pretty much practicing the items Newfie listed.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby asg70 » Fri 06 Sep 2019, 22:41:31

Plantagenet wrote:Everybody wants to blame somebody else for global warming. Very few people seem to be able to comprehend that its all of us.


Contrition on your part would be nice. Lifestyle modification would go farther.

Beyond that, Ibon nailed it. There's really no difference between outright deniers and lapsed idealists who eat drink and be merry out of a sense of futility. As far as my own sense of moral indignation, it's reserved for those who scream "do as I say, not as I do". I have a lot more respect for people who at least own up to their behavior even they know it's selfish. But the mental backflipping that people do to avoid feeling guilty drives me up the wall. It's sort of like the famous line in True Lies where Jamie Lee Curtis asks Arnold if he's ever killed anyone... It might help you sleep at night but it isn't fooling anyone else besides yourself.

HALL OF SHAME:
-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sat 07 Sep 2019, 00:20:36

dohboi wrote:Sanders pointed out that US policies are inhibiting the rights of women in 3rd world countries to decide how many kids they want to have.

Nothing about blaming them.

Try some other lie, now, maybe?


I never said Sanders was "blaming them" for wanting to have abortions.

Try some other lie, now, maybe?

Or maybe just read my post again and try to understand what it says....

Sanders said he would fight climate change by funding more abortions in third world countries.

I pointed out that (1) Sander's pointing the finger at third world countries for climate change isn't unusual. Bernie Sanders is a wealthy American who has multiple homes and who travels constantly....but when asked about climate change in the CNN climate change debate he doesn't talk about himself or about the carbon emissions of the USA....instead Bernie starts talking about funding more abortions for people in third world countries as a way to fight climate change.

Bernie might have thought he was being smart politically, but I don't think Bernie has quite thought this through. The carbon footprint of people in third world countries is minuscule compared to that of the typical American, and its ridiculous for Bernie to suggest that funding more abortions in third world countries is a rational policy for fighting climate change.

I also predicted (2) that Bernie's call for more abortions in third world countries would hurt him politically with black/brown voters in the USA.

Get it now?

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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Sat 07 Sep 2019, 01:41:13

Ibon wrote:What ASG70 mentioned in a previous post, this is all part of the tragedy of the commons. Because the commons is not owned or regulated everyone feels that they have the right to still fly in airplanes, buy new cars, consume at will, be wasteful etc.

Agreed.

The regulation required to do this makes sovereign nations have to sacrifice a part of their autonomy, has to make individual sacrifice a part of the freedom to consume, has to make all of us submit to alliances that are global in nature. This the only way for the remaining commons to be respected.

Too many differences between peoples so it is not going to happen.

But all of this has to happen exactly at a time when distrust of the state is at its highest, when distrust of international organizations is at its highest, when your government is seen as incompetent and corrupt, when we see sentiments in the collective almost anarchist toward federal regulations, state regulations, international regulations.

How could you call for "alliances that are global in nature" at the time when "distrust of international organizations is at its highest".

These young generations emerging that are demanding action, what will their position be toward submitting toward regulations by the state, toward self sacrifice for the greater good?

Young generations are entitled, narcisstic and mindless consumers and any existing calls for an action are coming from the fringe, as it always have been.
There is no hope whatsoever for Millenials to organize a change other than become passangers to default delivered by Nature.

Us old obsolete baby boomers, whether your politics is to the right or to the left, simply are so steeped in wanting our cake and eating it too, we are all from a generation of entitlements that actually is anathema to any kind of sacrifice for the greater good. In this regard we are united in the extreme position we take with our entitlements and in this regard the differences politically between the right and the left is minuscule.

If we are so "caring and intelligent", then our descendants are no more than roaches.

The young generations emerging just might be different. The zeitgeist of these generations may break the having of your cake and the eating it too that is the hallmark of all baby boomers, where ever you are on the political spectrum.

"This time is will be different" - once you hear it too often it is time to sell your stock.

Millenials won't solve anything by design.
Stricken by failing economy and spreading poverty they will struggle to the extreme to adapt.
But there is a hope:
They are so stupid and decadent that there is a good chance for them (at least on the West) to deliver solution by dereliction and ultimate abandonment of knowledge and loosing ability to do any more harm by the same.
Unfortunately Chinese will take over.

There won't be soultion other than default delivered by forces of Nature.
Job of humans was to bring carbon back to circulation to assist forces of entropy and they *will* complete their task before they are gone or made irrelevant.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Sat 07 Sep 2019, 01:56:48

Plantagenet wrote:I also predicted (2) that Bernie's call for more abortions in third world countries would hurt him politically with black/brown voters in the USA.

You are correct.
Soliciting white women to have abortion is desirable and politically correct and soliciting brown women to do so is designing a genocide.
Bernie is an obsolete Democrate dinosaur of no further utility.
Folks like him are on their way out and they are going to be replaced by Ms Omar and AOC.
These are new forces of progress and within a decade or so they *will* set social trends and ultimately rule America, you like it or not.
Brave (and brown) new world is coming soon in the theater near you. Tickets are given free.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Sat 07 Sep 2019, 02:13:48

asg70 wrote:There's really no difference between outright deniers and lapsed idealists who eat drink and be merry out of a sense of futility.

Madamme Pompadour has worked it out 250+ years ago.

"Lets enjoy. One we are gone even Flood may come".

From your own point of view thinking about "future generations" makes no sense and if Mother Nature has decided to toughen up your son a bit, it will be surely good for him.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 07 Sep 2019, 06:51:42

Ibon wrote:I would bet most of us on this site are pretty much practicing the items Newfie listed.


Exactly, and its Is mostly just a mixture of good common sense and a moderate respect for others.

Yet the vast majority do NOT live in that manner. If they did it would collapse the “forever growth” economy and take us a long way towards a sustainable planet.

You occasionally hear economic warnings because American, or Japanese, savings is up, folks have lost faith in the economy, and it portends a recession. When some economist, and it’s pretty much all economist, see personal savings as a bad thing I see them as shills.

As we have both noted this current thinking is a relatively new, our forefathers did not operate the way we do. We have been. TAUGHT this is the right way to live and that teaching can be reversed. Except it would be seen a treason if you tried.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby Ibon » Sat 07 Sep 2019, 08:35:20

Newfie wrote:
Ibon wrote:Yet the vast majority do NOT live in that manner. If they did it would collapse the “forever growth” economy and take us a long way towards a sustainable planet..


Yep, If the worlds population had my spending habits or those of most of you here the growth economy would have collapsed long ago.

It's strange because those of us who live frugally are actually exploiting a crack in the system. We persevere in the margins because of the unsustainable habits of others. If everyone became like us there would be a lot more competition which is counter intuitive.

I have enjoyed during my lifetime living outside the mainstream in this crack free of competition. Others sank into debt while I paid off mortgages and was free. It unabled me to have the freedom to leave jobs, take risks trying something new. I had no debt over my head holding me hostage. It was amazingly liberating and I would never have been able to take the plunge and come to Panama and do what I am doing here without that frugality.

Putting the environmental benefits aside for a moment, ask yourself, do you really want the rest of the world to enter into this special place we inhabit?
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Sat 07 Sep 2019, 08:39:40

Newfie wrote: We have been. TAUGHT this is the right way to live and that teaching can be reversed. Except it would be seen a treason if you tried.

If this was taught, then I must be a daft student.
One way or another it doesn't work either short or long term.
Short term it warranties personal ruin of fool who embraced these teachings and long term it warranties ruin of entire planet.
Anyone who want to get rich must discard these teachings.
Don't care what is good for "economy", observe what is good for *you* and this way you would not only help yourself but also help to save life on planet.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby Ibon » Sat 07 Sep 2019, 09:33:02

EnergyUnlimited wrote:Millenials won't solve anything by design.
Stricken by failing economy and spreading poverty they will struggle to the extreme to adapt.


Yes, when I suggest the emerging generations might bring something new to the table this absolutely will be the result of this winnowing process struggling through hard times. There is no growing a spine without that.

There is however a culture that develops as a result. I think the generation emerging will live through the transition of the death of the growth based economic system. The myths that sustained this growth based economic system will have to be replaced with another set of myths because humans are held together by myths. Always have been. And the new myths will include perhaps a certain more balanced place in regards to our mother earth, more of a willingness to submit to limits not only because they will be imposed by nature but because the new myths will support this.

A more collective sense of responsibility toward the commons can evolve out of this. It is not impossible. Any sense of collective submission will have nothing to do with the old school paradigm or dichotomy of communism vs capitalism. IT will come from a completely fresh new place, the origins being the struggles dealing with consequences.

Future generations will read about the myth of personal freedom and liberty during the heyday of 20th century capitalism and they will shake their heads in dismay unable to fathom this. One of the glaring questions they will ask that is blind to most of us today is why all this belief in personal freedom and liberty when at the same time almost everybody was neck deep in debt?
It will only take two generations of hardships for this myth to disappear from the zeitgeist.

Could be.....
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 07 Sep 2019, 12:59:48

EnergyUnlimited wrote:
Newfie wrote: We have been. TAUGHT this is the right way to live and that teaching can be reversed. Except it would be seen a treason if you tried.

If this was taught, then I must be a daft student.
One way or another it doesn't work either short or long term.
Short term it warranties personal ruin of fool who embraced these teachings and long term it warranties ruin of entire planet.
Anyone who want to get rich must discard these teachings.
Don't care what is good for "economy", observe what is good for *you* and this way you would not only help yourself but also help to save life on planet.


Your not a daft student, you are bucking the trend and thinking for yourself.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 07 Sep 2019, 13:03:09

Speaking of myths the major current myth is

“Infinite economic growth is required.”

Seems to me that is kind of obvious when you look back at us from some distance.

Anyone got a better myth?
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyages

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sat 07 Sep 2019, 13:27:35

lpetrich wrote:There is an alternative to air travel for crossing oceans: hitching a ride on a freighter. Freighter Bum - Admiral Judd's Adventure on the High Seas is a nice site on someone's adventures aboard a freighter.
As though US your boss will be fine with that for your business trip to Europe on a business schedule.

Or as though the family will be fine with that for the two week summer European vacation.

That's nice for various press headlines, but not exactly viable for a world on a schedule.

What would be much better is for business to use far more technology like videoconferencing (and thus far less travel), and for vacationers (if they actually care about the planet) to travel FAR, FAR less. And just try to mindfully produce less CO2 overall, re one's lifestyle.

But THAT is the basic problem -- people overall want to consume all they can afford AND borrow -- and the rest of it is just arguing around the edges.

Unless and until the lawmakers are willing to make consuming FF's so costly that the masses are willing to settle for alternatives (or until alternatives get good enough that the masses want to CHOOSE them), CO2 production will continue largely unabated.

As a retiree, I've personally done it for my lifestyle overall. But it was fairly easy, because as a retiree who is comfortable economically, I'm free to make lots of decisions re travel and consumption. People with families, who are working, etc. will find it much harder to do so in most cases as economic and social reality is "a thing".
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby asg70 » Sat 07 Sep 2019, 14:32:12

Plantagenet wrote:Get it now?


What I 'get' is your penchant to endlessly amuse yourself to death via finding fault in politicians (almost always of the D persuasion).

HALL OF SHAME:
-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 11 Sep 2019, 00:44:59

Greta Thunberg has called for a worldwide "climate strike" to happen on September 20th. Her goal is put pressure on the UN which is holding a climate conference starting on September 23rd.

greta-thunberg-responds-

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