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Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 11 Aug 2019, 20:20:19

It’s late and I’m tired but let me attempt to address the immigration issue in the USA, and perhaps elsewhere.

The first problem is that our economy is based upon the fiction of infinite growth, which requires infinite population growth. Economist are scared the population age pyramid will get inverted and poof goes our entitlement systems such as SociaI Security and Medicare. The citizen population growth rate is near zero, to economist that’s a big problem.

The “fix” is to have immigration. And if you can import cheap labor that you can then later intimidate to leave or to omit from drawing down benefits then that’s a double boost.

So Jose comes to work in a chicken factory, he gets some fake documents and gets a job. It’s minimum wage or lower, but because of the appearance of legitimacy he still pays SS and FICA etc. The employer also contributes his share. So money goes into the coffers. But because they are fake papers and Jose is an illegal nothing is credited to his personal account. It’s money lost to him but props us we Citizens. Frankly that’s abusive if Jose.

There is the argument that we need illegals to do the low wage jobs Americans won’t. If we had a true Capitalist culture then wages would rise until they were sufficiently competitive that folks would take those shit jobs because they paid well enough. Flooding the market with low wage earners is abusive of the ALL workers and amounts to illegal government interference depressing the labor market.

ibon’s point that too many Americans don’t want to do STEM work is in my experience all too valid. We have become fat and lazy and entitled and stupid. But is that a good reason to import outside workers? Won’t they too become fat, lazy, entitled and stupid as they achieve the American Dream? The right thing to do is ask why our culture is degrading and then address those issues.

Then there are some truly BIG questions. Ask yourself this, what is the maximum number of Americans we want? I don’t know what that number is but it is not “infinity and beyond.” Yet that is exactly the reasoning behind our “infinite growth” economic model. Infinite growth is simply not possible. There are limits.

Now we can set that limit, or run into overshoot and have it set upon us, at a much lower figure, through the collapse process. I would set the limit at 100 million, but to not be too controversial let’s use 300 million for sake of argument. In my conversations I find almost no one who thinks the country is under populated and most think we have too many now.

But let’s start the conversation with a 400 million limit just to explore some other questions. That gives us about 60 million for growth.
How soon do we want to get there?
How much of that growth should be aside for our current citizenry?
What kind of people do we want to allowed in?
Should it be based on merit, the best and brightest?
Should we put quotas based upon their race, do we need more Africans, more Polynesians, more Inuit?
To what extent to we purposely Engineer our racial makeup?

But if the limit is set at 300 million well then most of those questions are moot, we are already over the limit. How fast do we want to get from 330 to 300?
I’m presuming we want to allow the population to decrease naturally, who wants to order killings.

But let’s say we get to 300 million through natural attrition and the population is still falling. Then we could prop up the population with immigrants but we would be back to answering all those thorny questions about how to make the selection.

All the above would require a cool national debate about our future and how we desire it to unfold. None of these arguments are racial, they are valid logical questions we must answer. It is unfortunate that they bring up difficult questions and challenge our sense of morality and fair play. Such is life.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby asg70 » Mon 12 Aug 2019, 08:54:15

Population is a third-rail topic. The mainstream left refuses to wrestle with population because it clashes with ideals of social-justice. The right is against abortion and so neither side of the left-right divide are really in any position to deal with this. Because right now, today, we are (relatively speaking) a rich and fat country, the overpopulation concept is abstract at best. So there's no way to create a heightened sense of urgency. So the immigration debate revolves not around resource concerns and more towards economic cost-benefit and social justice. You see that right here even from someone like Ibon who is nothing if not a Malthusian. Doom seems far enough off that our day-to-day policy positions fall back to 20th century left/right paradigms. If we can't shift our mindsets, how can we expect anyone else?

What I do know is that once we DO get to the point where carrying capacity math starts to bite down on us there will be endless coulda-shoulda-wouldas.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 12 Aug 2019, 09:03:53

ASG,

I think some of us here have gotten to the point where we see no hope of humanity ever facing any of the major challenges. Yes, coulda, shoulda, woulda. But won't.

That leaves us in the awkward positions of being spectators at our own suicide. Very uncomfortable and something we are not prepared for. Dazed and confused.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 12 Aug 2019, 19:09:51

Yes, a long term trend. But one he has yet to reverse, despite his claims.

And I actually think the demographics on this are a big, overlooked part of what created this monster.

Whites in the US are the demographic driving these increases in suicide and death by opioids (suicide by other means). Whatever advantages white skin gives people in the US (and there are many), the net effect is that they still feel more f'd over than every other sector, so much so that they are offing themselves in record numbers. It's kind of like Russians after the fall of the USSR. Many drank themselves into the grave.

The year before T was elected, I was still teaching classes about race etc. I presented all the very strong evidence that whites had all sorts of clear advantages over black on average in the US. But then I challenged the class with the stats on how anomalous the white death and mortality rates were.

There is much that could be said and has been said about this interesting paradox, but it would take us pretty far afield from the putative topic of the thread, it seems to me.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 12 Aug 2019, 19:27:54

That works, if you ignore the black on black homicide rate.

That’s invisible to your stats because it’s been going on so long.

Thankfully it is slowly decreasing, but perhaps only because of the huge incarceration rate. Who truly knows?

At the bottom of a lot of this is one simple fact, many of our youth, across all races and economic strata, are alienated from our society, our culture, even from one another. Many seem to have lost hope of partaking in successful, happy lives. They turn to all sorts of diversions. The symptoms seem to manifest differently in different demographics, but the they have common roots.

I don’t know the answers, I just want to figure out the right questions. And one of them is this...how will all this disruption effect today’s children? How do we do better raising the next generation than we did with the last?

I’m pretty sure Ladling on gobs of guilt isn’t anywhere in that solution.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby Cog » Mon 12 Aug 2019, 19:53:05

The fact that dohboi taught some sort of gender/racial studies is something I find very predictable. What is even more predictable is that someone, (probably a taxpayer) paid him a good wage to make white people feel bad for a few hours. I guess spiking trees doesn't pay very well, but liberal white guilt pays handsomely.

I imagine that dohboi is a full fledged member of the DSA if not Anitifa. But have no fear dohboi, we have plans for terrorists in Trump's second term. It will be fun. Trust me.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby Tanada » Mon 12 Aug 2019, 20:32:39

Image
I should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, write, balance accounts, build a wall, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, pitch manure, program a computer, cook, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 12 Aug 2019, 22:55:23

As always, I am most concerned that my dear cog's feathers not get ruffled! It was, in this case, a private college, so basically no tax dollars involved.

Nice to see that I got absolutely zip, zero, null, de nada credit for introducing the issue of anomalous white mortality and morbidity.

Just reinforces my general impression that y'all are just interested in getting whatever digs you can in for whatever g'd forsaken reason.

Have a wonderful sadistic night! :)
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Tue 13 Aug 2019, 01:31:35

People whine about growing white mortality this time.
Take into account:
1. Disintegration of traditional family and associated stress to adults and particularly children.
2. Destruction of meaningful and well paid jobs and associated stress.
3. Deferral of giving first birth into 30-thies and 40-thies to produce genetic garbage from egg cemeteries.
4. Junk food.
5. Growing debts of individuals and associated stress.
6. Sedentary, unhealthy life style.
7. Relentless peer pressure to perform (including social media nonsense like selfie competiton and "likes").
8. You name more as you please - above are the most obvious bits.

It is entirely expected that under such circumstances peoples will live shorter, rates of suicide, drug addiction, crime and chronic disease will go up.
What surprises me is that Americans are still living so long.
Mother Nature is still very lenient for them.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 13 Aug 2019, 06:22:11

Dohboi and Cog,

Move the quarrels to Motel 6 please.

Try to recall the rules of decorum.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 13 Aug 2019, 06:24:17

Tanada,

I think of that episode now and again. It was a good one and spot on. Shows how little we really progress.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby derhundistlos » Tue 13 Aug 2019, 09:55:17

The "opioid epidemic" is a misnomer. Call it for what it is- heroin- and stop conflating pain-relievers. Secondly, let's put this in perspective. Far more people die from alcohol-related addiction then the painkiller hysteria. We tried to get my uncle into a treatment facility for alcohol, but there were no beds available as all the funding is now directed to "opioids" (he's now dead). Finally, an excellent investigative journalist from Las Vegas named George Knapp launched an investigation into the numbers being thrown around by the police and government and he found a large amount of duplication and fraud. IOW, the "epidemic" is no such thing. It's all crap. Patients who have a legitimate need for narcotic pain-relievers are finding it damn near impossible to get prescriptions filled. I now know of two people who committed suicide after their docs. decided it was just too much trouble to write their scripts. A 58-year neighbor suffering from MS asphyxiated herself after her husband went to work. She wrote her family a suicide note explaining that having to confront MS AND terrible pain since her doctor discontinued her medication was more than she could handle. Then a friend of mine who was injured in a chemical plant explosion blew his brains out for the same reason.

Though anecdotal, the surge in suicides I believe is related to tens of thousands of patients being dumped by docs who are now scared to death to write a narcotic pain prescription for fear of losing their license. Don't believe me? Try going to a doctor and see what happens when you try to get a script.

A small number of prescription pain pill abusers is now causing the untold suffering of the majority population who requires the medication.

By parroting the "opioid epidemic meme" and as a result getting people all whipped up into a frenzy, you are causing more good people to suffer and die.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby derhundistlos » Tue 13 Aug 2019, 11:24:41

"But have no fear dohboi, we have plans for terrorists in Trump's second term. It will be fun. Trust me."

Cog, don't count your chickens before they hatch. If you thought the resistance turned-out in 2018, just wait until 2020. Matter of fact, Democratic candidates received as many votes in the off-year election of 2018 (63 million) as the 63 million that President Trump received in 2016, when he won the Electoral College (but lost the popular vote). There isn’t any precedent in all of US history for the opposition party at the midterm equaling the president’s vote total. And despite the largest case of voter fraud in decades when Republicans got caught stuffing ballot boxes in North Carolina.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby asg70 » Tue 13 Aug 2019, 12:08:30

...man do I hate how upcoming presidential elections act like a black-hole swallowing up all public discourse into college sports like flag-waving and braggadocio.


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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby derhundistlos » Tue 13 Aug 2019, 15:09:22

Asg70-

Yes, you are so right. Warning someone not to count their chickens before they hatch is a gross and inexcusable effrontery to public discourse. Yet, equating environmentalists to terrorists and making threats of what will happen to these undesirable elements is perfectly acceptable and reasonable discourse. Makes perfect nonsense to me.

If you don't like the tone of US elections, don't participate, and if you expect elections to be polite affairs where both sides enjoy tea and biscuits together, you're not living in the real world or perhaps you can point us to a particular national election that meets your standards for discourse-LOL. Inquiring minds want to know.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Tue 13 Aug 2019, 15:29:47

derhundistlos wrote:The "opioid epidemic" is a misnomer. Call it for what it is- heroin- and stop conflating pain-relievers. Secondly, let's put this in perspective. Far more people die from alcohol-related addiction then the painkiller hysteria. We tried to get my uncle into a treatment facility for alcohol, but there were no beds available as all the funding is now directed to "opioids" (he's now dead). Finally, an excellent investigative journalist from Las Vegas named George Knapp launched an investigation into the numbers being thrown around by the police and government and he found a large amount of duplication and fraud. IOW, the "epidemic" is no such thing. It's all crap. Patients who have a legitimate need for narcotic pain-relievers are finding it damn near impossible to get prescriptions filled. I now know of two people who committed suicide after their docs. decided it was just too much trouble to write their scripts. A 58-year neighbor suffering from MS asphyxiated herself after her husband went to work. She wrote her family a suicide note explaining that having to confront MS AND terrible pain since her doctor discontinued her medication was more than she could handle. Then a friend of mine who was injured in a chemical plant explosion blew his brains out for the same reason.

Though anecdotal, the surge in suicides I believe is related to tens of thousands of patients being dumped by docs who are now scared to death to write a narcotic pain prescription for fear of losing their license. Don't believe me? Try going to a doctor and see what happens when you try to get a script.

A small number of prescription pain pill abusers is now causing the untold suffering of the majority population who requires the medication.

By parroting the "opioid epidemic meme" and as a result getting people all whipped up into a frenzy, you are causing more good people to suffer and die.

All fine,
So why your friends do not purchase (or ask family tu purchase if diasabled) street drugs like heroin or fentanyl which are now widely available without any prescription and also reasonably cheap?
After all for someone suffering excruciable pain rules and regulations are not of primary importance?
Last edited by EnergyUnlimited on Tue 13 Aug 2019, 15:33:44, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby derhundistlos » Tue 13 Aug 2019, 15:43:48

"So why your friends do not purchase (or ask family tu purchase if diasabled) street drugs like heroin or fentanyl which are now widely available without any prescription and also reasonably cheap?"

Really, tell me exactly where that would be and from whom do they make the purchase since you seem to have all the answers.

BTW, since your odds of contracting cancer are 50%, your day will arrive when you will need palliative relief and if you are true to your word you will decline all relief excepting aspirin and Tylenol. But of course not, you will be the first to whine and complain about your discomfort. If the Gods are fair, you will be made to suffer until the very end.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Tue 13 Aug 2019, 15:51:39

derhundistlos wrote:"So why your friends do not purchase (or ask family tu purchase if diasabled) street drugs like heroin or fentanyl which are now widely available without any prescription and also reasonably cheap?"

Really, tell me exactly where that would be and from whom do they make the purchase since you seem to have all the answers.

You really don't know from where drugs are purchased?
From your friendly local dealer.
Every kid knows which one it is. Just ask. :)

BTW, since your odds of contracting cancer are 50%, your day will arrive when you will need palliative relief and if you are true to your word you will decline all relief excepting aspirin and Tylenol. But of course not, you will be the first to whine and complain about your discomfort. If the Gods are fair, you will be made to suffer until the very end.

I am not sure if I will whine or not.
Gods are fair but they work not exactly like humans would expect.
They have also other priorities than we think.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby asg70 » Tue 13 Aug 2019, 16:18:41

derhundistlos wrote:If you don't like the tone of US elections, don't participate


The problem is that it becomes the ONLY thing people talk about regardless of thread. I'll gladly "not participate" if it can be kept from polluting every damn thread. This thread has NOTHING to do with the election. Seriously, I wish the moderators would enforce topic focus...for once.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby derhundistlos » Thu 15 Aug 2019, 16:52:36

"You really don't know from where drugs are purchased?
From your friendly local dealer.
Every kid knows which one it is. Just ask. :)"

No, "really I don't know". So for kicks, I took your "advice" and asked several teenagers here in Illinois where do I find the prescription pain medication local pusher. They just laughed and asked me if I was for real. Then they answered by telling me that, much to your disappointment, there are no prescription pain medication dealers prowling the streets.

You remind me of a character out of some Nancy Reagan "Just say no" commercial, and we all know what a smashing success that was.

You and your kind have been fighting a failed war on drugs for the past 50 years and what do you have to show except for hundreds of billions of dollars of taxpayer funds down the toilet and a prison system overflowing with non-violent drug offenders, often times serving longer sentences than violent offenders.

Yeah, let's keep doing the same in your failed approach to drugs. That makes sense.
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