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Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 09 Aug 2019, 11:47:50

So now its time for a little bitter pill for all you anti immigrant Americans.

You guys like to claim the following:

1) Undocumented immigrants drain the public coffers
2) They are rapists, they are murderers (thanks Donald)
3) They have lower IQ's than American citizens
5) They import socialism and communism to America

These claims are pure bullshit and a way to not confront the REAL reason for the animosity against immigrants. I acknowledge and can agree somewhat with some of you who say I play the racist card a bit much. Because the REAL reason is also not because some of you are racists. The REAL reason? For native born Americans immigrants are down right intimidating. Both undocumented and documented.

Your undocumented Guatemalan working 10-12 hour work days on construction at a high level of productivity is intimidating for native American construction workers.

That undocumented Mexican will harvest more than double the number of apples or cherries than a locally hired AMerican to do the same job. Dishwashers in restaurants? same thing.

That Honduran woman working in the old peoples home does not complain about back aches as much as the native American employee doing the same job.

That Indian software engineer on an H1Visa working in Silicon Valley is not conflicted working 60 hour work weeks while his American counter parts want to go rock climbing on the weekends.

What about that Chinese student in the AMerican University? How does his report card compare to the local native AMerican student? Study habits?

Immigrants, documented and undocumented, are harder workers, more ambitious, more driven to get ahread. In other words, they embody the very spirit of what has made America such a driven striving country. It has always been like this. Nothing has changed has it? Oh yes, something has changed and it is the slovenly despondent work ethic of your average AMerican. That is what has changed.

Think I am making this all up? How about a link to some article regarding this? OK.

https://www.post-gazette.com/opinion/Op ... 1809030016

What I hear does not speak well for American workers.

Employers tell me that American workers fail drug tests, show up to work late, rush out at quitting time, pretend to be sick when they want to ditch, refuse to do certain jobs and generally act like they’re doing the employer a favor just by clocking in.


So ASG70, think again when you claim undocumented immigrants come here only to make anchor babies
Cog, think again when you think undocumented immigrants are importing socialism.
Tire, think again if you think AMericans can pick up the slack if we deport all those nasty rapist and murdering immigrants.

So the remedy?

Every American born construction worker should wake up every morning and say to himself. I am going to out perform Juan Fernandez today.

Every American born software engineer should wake up every morning and say to himself: " I am going to work longer hours this week than Pradesh Patel.

Every American born nurses aid should wake up every morning and say to herself " I am going to do a better job of cleaning those bed pans than Carmen.

Every American college student should set the goal for himself to score higher on the next upcoming exam than Zhang Wei.


Or we can just put on our red hats and deport them all.....
Last edited by Ibon on Fri 09 Aug 2019, 12:23:55, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 09 Aug 2019, 11:59:29

onlooker wrote: Some think we will inevitably descend into competitive barbarism, others like me see the possibility of a new beginning for our species based on a strict code of ethics that encompasses cooperation and harmonious living. Ibon you also have this belief but in the meantime you do what you have to and wish to, No hypocrisy.


You know Onlooker, I am in the game as long as that game is viable. I do believe in upcoming consequences embedding the possibility of a cultural renaissance. But for the last couple of generations brought up in the soft bellied opulence there is no real hope for a renaissance. Just an increase in despondency and maybe suicide.

The generations that come afterwards will be the stewards of a new cultural renaissance.

WE are all obsolete hopelessly privileged bastards.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 09 Aug 2019, 12:19:53

Actually, Ibon, the antiimmigrants just parrot the talking points of MSM. The same who are the propagandists of the elite. The same who have denuded the American economic landscape of economic opportunities for the masses. Not the immigrants. They play us off each other and watch amused as the indoctrinated like Cog and Asg, serve their interests. But all this is a rehash of the timeless theme of us against them. And so at this advanced stage in our downfall we are proving incapable of rising above our petty differences and confronting the Overshoot Predator united as one. Because he is after all of us.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 09 Aug 2019, 13:28:46

onlooker wrote:Actually, Ibon, the antiimmigrants just parrot the talking points of MSM. The same who are the propagandists of the elite. The same who have denuded the American economic landscape of economic opportunities for the masses. Not the immigrants. They play us off each other and watch amused as the indoctrinated like Cog and Asg, serve their interests. But all this is a rehash of the timeless theme of us against them. And so at this advanced stage in our downfall we are proving incapable of rising above our petty differences and confronting the Overshoot Predator united as one. Because he is after all of us.


Yes I do very much agree with. I forgot to mention something else that plays right into the corporate game plan. All those lazy mediocre Americans whose only solution to grow a spine is to join the military and go off fighting contrived fake wars created by the American Military Industrial Complex. Eisenhower is turning over in his grave.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 09 Aug 2019, 13:31:00

I love America by the way and my words are those of a patriot.

Few of you can recognize this.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 09 Aug 2019, 13:38:08

Yes, Ibon, being a patriot of the ideal of America not what it has become.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Fri 09 Aug 2019, 14:09:38

I am finding this thread entertaining.
Something between self-flagellating and beating a dead horse.
One thing is for sure.
Western civilization is on its way out and nothing can stop it... and peoples are whining about it.
Time to think about it was maybe 40 years ago, when issues could still be adressed to a degree.
But now it is too late.
Demography is clear. Latinos will win and Whites will loose as long as US is concerned.
In age band up to 18 Whites in US will be a minority next year.
Within 20-25 years American Whites will loose majority status.
Coming elections are the last when Republicans stand *any* chance to win, unless they embrace socialism like Democrats did.
Being young American I would seriously begin to learn Spanish.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby dohboi » Fri 09 Aug 2019, 15:28:48

Wow, I never realized till now that Latinos are from Eastern civilization! Thanks! :D :D :D

Noooow, trying once again to heroically steer the conversation back to something remotely related to the putative topic:

Though living in a world of relative opulence, some have chosen to reproduce less or not at all, specifically because of the environmental burden kids place on the planet and because they would be bearing kids into a world of now-inevitable climate catastrophe:

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/climate- ... 4052e09033

9 People On The Ethics Of Having Kids In An Era Of Climate Crisis

At the start of July, HuffPost covered a rising grassroots movement of people who are questioning the ethics of having kids in a rapidly warming world, where global leaders seem united only in inaction. Since that article was published, the world has struggled through the hottest month ever recorded, the Arctic has been gripped by hundreds of unprecedented and devastating wildfires, and Greenland’s icebergs have experienced a “major melt event,” sending billions of tons of water flowing into the ocean.

We have also been overwhelmed with responses from readers telling us their stories about kids and climate change.

They’ve told us how they shelved plans to have children and how that caused family rifts. Some even had their fears dismissed by therapists. We heard from a number of older people who said they had seen the environmental crisis coming in the 1970s and ’80s and had decided not to have children or to stop at one. We heard from those who have adopted kids because they did not want to add more people to the planet.

Some responses were uplifting, many were heartbreaking, all were searingly honest. Here’s what they told us. ...
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby asg70 » Fri 09 Aug 2019, 17:15:59

Ibon wrote:My perspective from outside the USA is a valuable input on this site exactly because I am not caught up in the daily grind of the dysfunction. I can pull the lens back, something you struggle with.


Upthread you were encouraging others to do what you've done, which is to quit and walk away. If you wash your hands of the fate of america then don't back-seat drive those who are still here. You don't face the consequences of any of your policy prescriptions therefore it's easy for you to get on moral high-horses and argue for open borders and to casually discuss employing illegals.

Ibon wrote:So we tolerate the legal corruption


Why are you invoking the royal we? Who is this we you speak of? I don't condone corruption. Anyone else here condone it?

onlooker wrote:all too attached to the umbilical cord of civilization


Trash your computer and put on a hair-shirt and blend into the bush if you don't want to be called on your hypocrisy for saying this.


Ibon wrote:Undocumented immigrants


Use the proper term: illegal. I will not condone illegality, period. Do not pass go. If the government wants to give millions of these people amnesty like what happened under Reagan, fine, but until then, they're illegal, period.

Ibon wrote:...or we can just put on our red hats and deport them all


Exactly. There are a LOT of people from around the world who go through the system with all its red tape to become citizens. I used to know a Filipino who had a hell of a time getting his wife naturalized, for instance. They are shit on by those who just storm the Rio Grande and try to blend in. De-facto citizenship should not be something we award people for merely passing through the "Rio Grande obstacle-course".

Ibon wrote:WE are all obsolete hopelessly privileged bastards.


Be careful. Your white-guilt complex is showing, just like Rosanna Arquette.

BTW, I don't find how ANY of this bleeding-heart liberalism is congruent with your misanthropic Malthusian "overshoot predator" narrative. If we're headed for a massive die-off, I don't see how any sort of loose border policy could possibly last much longer even in an ideal world of the hard-left coming to power in 2020. One brief last-hurrah at best.

It seems that you're the one holding onto outdated concepts, Ibon. The great correction(TM) will involve a lot of conflict and almost nothing resembling human rights or social justice....just lifeboat ethics.

The sooner you concede that, the better. Send your guilty conscience through the stages of grief and get over it ahead of time.

HALL OF SHAME:
-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 09 Aug 2019, 17:46:59

So Asg, tell us again why we are hypocryts for pointing out that they're are tiers of disenfranchised people and priviledged bastards. That Capitalism has created this. And while you are at it, admit the real reason you and others wish to keep out the migrants is precisely because you all are practicing life boat ethics. Until you admit it, you are as big a hypocrite as anyone.
Last edited by onlooker on Fri 09 Aug 2019, 19:01:07, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby asg70 » Fri 09 Aug 2019, 18:52:58

Onlooker, all your grammatically flawed and typo-ridden attack shows is that you are permanently wedded to your socialist-leaning ideology. I knew that a long time ago so it doesn't surprise me to see you double or triple down. When ETP demonstrated itself to be a sham, for instance, you followed through on your promise to rebuke it, only to wait a while, then latch back onto it again. So you're not the type of guy to modify your conclusions even when the data clearly calls it into question. And the data suggests that your brand of socialism doesn't work, with Venezuela the newest sorry example. It's yet another ideology that sounds good in principle and fails in the real world. There is a lot of middle-ground between that and the sort of neocon or trump style corporatocracy we have today. So stop trying to draw a false dichotomy here. The left have successfully framed strict immigration enforcement as tantamount to racism. That is f*cked up because at its core you have people who are in violation of the law, period. There's no platform upon which to defend lawbreaking (and that goes for those who willfully employ illegals too--like Ibon). Don't like the laws, then petition to change them, just as is going on with the wave of legalizing pot, for instance. But when the law is on the books, it should be enforced. That is what true fairness looks like. Trump may be a racist, but enforcing immigration laws is still the right thing to do, even if he's motivated for the wrong reasons.

BTW, I'm sure Ibon wouldn't like it if millions of people decided to just descend onto his Cloud Forest uninvited from all over the world and permanently squat there (and they probably will head down there when the main event malthusian catastrophe starts to bite). The cloud forest would soon become a cesspool. It's easy for him to support this as long as people are moving AWAY from his enclave. Point being that governments have every right to control the flow of immigration.

HALL OF SHAME:
-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 09 Aug 2019, 19:21:27

Your level of naivety related to CAPITALIST imperialism is astounding Asg. You surely must know that the reason nothing has been done for decades about Immigration is the deft political manuevering of the single corporate apparutus. Trying to appease their Republican voters and the business lobby at the same time. And that the reason so many people are trying to leave South and Central America is the pernicious intervention both direct and clandestine by the Capitalism apparatus. Communism as the boogyman is a sophistry made up by the western media propagandists. They never threatened us, we just needed the excuse to project power overseas, that is what Empires do. Communism does not work in the way Capitalists like to measure "work". Making the rich richer. It has been sabotaged time and time again by the pervasive Capitalist system and its proponents. This conversation is boiling down to who is more honest about the true nature of the world we live in. I can and do change my opinion when warranted. You want to call out the integrity of me and Ibon. Well, I call out your assertions as unfounded as they fail to account for the true motivations of the Capitalist system we live under.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby dohboi » Fri 09 Aug 2019, 20:50:09

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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Sat 10 Aug 2019, 00:00:44

asg70 wrote:Use the proper term: illegal. I will not condone illegality, period. Do not pass go. If the government wants to give millions of these people amnesty like what happened under Reagan, fine, but until then, they're illegal, period.

Legal... illegal... who cares?
You are too obsessed with rules and regulations.
These have become too complex, tedious and obsolete. You are probably breaking a dosen of them every day without even knowing it.
There is an inflation of law or precisely speaking inflation of volume and deflation of value of law.
In challenging times those who are going to survive will do what fit and not split hair over "very illegal" and "slightly prohibited".

BTW, I don't find how ANY of this bleeding-heart liberalism is congruent with your misanthropic Malthusian "overshoot predator" narrative. If we're headed for a massive die-off, I don't see how any sort of loose border policy could possibly last much longer even in an ideal world of the hard-left coming to power in 2020. One brief last-hurrah at best.

For as long as Mexicans in the US will not close a border for other Mexicans nothing will change.
White population of US is no longer capable to protect a border.
Too much of conflict of interest and too much of gluttony to even try it.

It seems that you're the one holding onto outdated concepts, Ibon. The great correction(TM) will involve a lot of conflict and almost nothing resembling human rights or social justice....just lifeboat ethics.

It will be more like hunting, not conflict.
Mexicans and other savages will be hunters and Millenials together with eldery Baby Boomers will be a pray.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby careinke » Sat 10 Aug 2019, 02:32:33

Ibon wrote:
asg70 wrote:Are you still technically a US citizen, btw? I don't think ex-pats should be weighing in on US problems when you don't have to deal with them. You've run away from them and are back-seat-driving.


The level of self denial around acknowledging ones racism is layers deep. Shaming people by not mincing words can in some cases penetrate that denial. That is not up to me but rather up to the receiver.

My perspective from outside the USA is a valuable input on this site exactly because I am not caught up in the daily grind of the dysfunction. I can pull the lens back, something you struggle with.

Based on your comments about whites, I'd have to say you are one of the racists on the site. You constantly seem obsessed with skin color. Trust me, it's a lot easier to judge individuals based on there own character rather than what race they belong to.

I read somewhere "You become what you hate." I see ample evidence of this everywhere.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby ralfy » Sat 10 Aug 2019, 07:14:02

From "The Behavioral Sink":

But Calhoun’s work was different. Vogt, Ehrlich, and the others were neo-Malthusians, arguing that population growth would cause our demise by exhausting our natural resources, leading to starvation and conflict. But there was no scarcity of food and water in Calhoun’s universe. The only thing that was in short supply was space. This was, after all, “heaven”—a title Calhoun deliberately used with pitch-black irony. The point was that crowding itself could destroy a society before famine even got a chance. In Calhoun’s heaven, hell was other mice.


In this world, there is no "no scarcity" of resources and no lack of space.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby Ibon » Sat 10 Aug 2019, 08:08:50

careinke wrote:
Ibon wrote:
asg70 wrote:Are you still technically a US citizen, btw? I don't think ex-pats should be weighing in on US problems when you don't have to deal with them. You've run away from them and are back-seat-driving.


The level of self denial around acknowledging ones racism is layers deep. Shaming people by not mincing words can in some cases penetrate that denial. That is not up to me but rather up to the receiver.

My perspective from outside the USA is a valuable input on this site exactly because I am not caught up in the daily grind of the dysfunction. I can pull the lens back, something you struggle with.

Based on your comments about whites, I'd have to say you are one of the racists on the site. You constantly seem obsessed with skin color. Trust me, it's a lot easier to judge individuals based on there own character rather than what race they belong to.

I read somewhere "You become what you hate." I see ample evidence of this everywhere.


You guys will all be relieved for 3 days of me calling out racism when I see it as I am leaving in 5 minutes for a remote base camp on an entomological expedition. I might get data on my cell phone but I hate typing on those since I am not a mellinnial!

I will respond to this post though in due time.

Have fun all while I am gone..... wish me many new species!
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby Cog » Sat 10 Aug 2019, 10:55:02

For not caring about politics in the USA Ibon, you seem to have an odd way of demonstrating it.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby careinke » Sat 10 Aug 2019, 11:36:18

Ibon,
Good luck on you expedition.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby asg70 » Sat 10 Aug 2019, 21:02:04

onlooker wrote:Your level of naivety related to CAPITALIST imperialism is astounding Asg.


Sorry I must have missed a few communist indoctrination seminars along the way.

onlooker wrote:This conversation is boiling down to...


No, the conversation is boiling down to you regurgitating boilerplate Democracy Now! self-hating anti-establishment sentiment with no nuance. Not that any of it justifies open borders one way or the other.

Seems like everyone needs to erect a boogeyman to pretend is the root of all evil. For people like you it's "american hegemony(TM)". I know the talking points and they are woefully one-sided. You're not really capable of looking at the big picture, Onlooker. I hate to call a spade a spade, but I don't think you're that bright. I've beaten around the bush on this a thousand times but for once I have to be blunt with you. You're definitely a zealot, but you're not a very deep thinker.

HALL OF SHAME:
-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
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