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Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby asg70 » Thu 08 Aug 2019, 17:52:55

tire wrote:I'm telling you what I think. I think everyone's "best interest" is of equal value. But I think the "best interest" of a citizen of a nation is of HIGHER value than "the best interest" of a foreigner.


You're missing the fundamental dividing point between left and right. Left views the world as being in a state of surplus, hence sharing lifts all boats and doesn't drag anyone down. Left also thinks, like Anne Frank, that everyone is fundamentally good. The right thinks in terms of scarcity, that charity beyond a certain point is stealing, and that people are fundamentally sinful. There is NO WAY to reconcile these two viewpoints.

https://www.npr.org/templates/transcrip ... als-2018-2

The human brain is wired into two modes, cooperation and competition. When you enter into competition (or war) your empathic centers are suppressed. This has to happen in order to be able to do what needs to be done. This is exactly why the social justice/bleeding heart argumentation style of the left falls on deaf ears with the right. If the right view their world as being under some sort of siege, they are simply not going to be moved by moral guilt/shaming tactics. The left is more of a feminine force that spawns out of a mother-hen complex. That's why they call it the "nanny state". Weak law enforcement, "understanding" the perpetrator or absolving them of guilt, etc... The right is a masculine force of strong defense, business-centric, law and order, and the military-industrial complex.

If the endpoint of our current global civilization is collapse, there will be no room for liberalism and collectivism. Conflict will rise to the point where everyone will come into a siege mentality and shift to the right. Power will break down into smaller and smaller groups or allegiances.

Liberalism is a great ideal, but it is a luxury that can only exist in times of extended peace and surplus. This is why the golden age of democratic Greece, for instance, was incredibly short.

Now, the mouse utopia thesis, that's a whole other ball of wax. That suggests that happiness/wellness may break down not due to resource constraints but due to the knock-on effects of overcrowding, information overload, an increased feeling of being unimportant and having no voice.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby onlooker » Thu 08 Aug 2019, 19:08:31

"but due to the knock-on effects of overcrowding, information overload, an increased feeling of being unimportant and having no voice" And that is part of the symptoms of our hyper competitive Capitalist system. Competition is no longer a positive adaptation response. Not in a world where we are the undisputed Apex Predator. Not in a world where we face daunting common challenges. Not in a world where the impacts of our species is threatening our collective existence. Whatever positivity will exist in the future after emerging fron the bottleneck of a reduced carrying capacity on Earth and consequent large die offs of humans will be because the survivors will recognize how critical it is to live in harmony with each other and Nature. And so I think one can say that is in the best interest of all current and future humans
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby tire » Thu 08 Aug 2019, 19:18:27

asg70 wrote:You're missing the fundamental dividing point between left and right. Left views the world as being in a state of surplus, hence sharing lifts all boats and doesn't drag anyone down. Left also thinks, like Anne Frank, that everyone is fundamentally good. The right thinks in terms of scarcity, that charity beyond a certain point is stealing, and that people are fundamentally sinful. There is NO WAY to reconcile these two viewpoints..


asg70, thank you very much for your post. Of course I agree with you.
But you are pushing the narrative too hard. We're dealing with people who cry "racist" as soon as they encounter a wrong word in any unrelated context. So we have to tread carefully. In the end we're in the this world together. We have to find common ground. We have to respect each other and each others fears, ideals, visions and thoughts. If only everybody would listen a bit more and talked a little less we would already be in much better shape.

By the way, I'm not claiming to know the answer to any of this. And I ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY do not claim my idea is the Holy Grail, unlike many of the posters here do. I'm exploring, proposing, and learning as I go. For me, too all of this is a new experience. Let's see where the journey takes us.

Cheers
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby tire » Thu 08 Aug 2019, 19:31:04

radon1 wrote:
tire wrote:
Let's assume you own a small business (farm, grocery store, gas station, etc.).
Let's also assume you're looking for an unskilled worker who will do good work at minimum pay.
Let's also assume there are no low skilled, uneducated immigrants available (for whatever reason).

What would you do in "the best interest" of your business?


What "business"? Why do you think that any "business" would even ever exist under your assumptions? "Businesses" originate within the scope of a specific historical context, of which immigrants (of various waves) are a part. Therefore your imaginary exercise is invalid.

Let's assume that you want to breathe on the Moon, but no oxygen transported from Earth is available. What would you do in the best interest of your breathing?


Ok, I'm sorry I must have completely misjudged the audience. 3 assumptions in a fictional thought experiment IS a very hard thing to keep track of. I fully agree. Let's try again. I hope you're still with me. I have full confidence in you that you don't need to wander of to the moon lacking air this time.

Let's assume you own a small farm, right now in 2019. It consist of 100 acres of land and 15 cows.
This is ONE assumption in the CURRENT year. So you don't have to travel back in time to 50 years ago, you don't have to travel to the moon without air. It's all right here, now.

I'm sure you follow now, right? And I'm looking forward to working with you on the next step.

Thank you very much for taking the time to think about a very difficult situation with 3 assumption. Not many people can do that, I know. But we will manage.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby derhundistlos » Thu 08 Aug 2019, 20:33:50

More urgent warnings to humanity fall on deaf ears for which there will be hell to be paid.

Climate crisis reducing land’s ability to sustain humanity, says IPCC.

UN report finds ecosystems never before under such threat and restoration is urgent.

The climate crisis is damaging the ability of the land to sustain humanity, with cascading risks becoming increasingly severe as global temperatures rise, according to a landmark UN report compiled by some of the world’s top scientists.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... -says-ipcc
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby dohboi » Thu 08 Aug 2019, 20:54:33

Good catch, dhil. Then there's this:

An 88 Percent Decline in Large Freshwater Animals
https://phys.org/news/2019-08-percent-decline-large-freshwater-animals.html

Rivers and lakes cover just about one percent of Earth's surface, but are home to one third of all vertebrate species worldwide. At the same time, freshwater life is highly threatened.

Scientists from the Leibniz-Institute of Freshwater Ecology and Inland Fisheries (IGB) and international colleagues have now quantified the global decline of big freshwater animals: From 1970 to 2012, global populations of freshwater megafauna declined by 88 percent—twice the loss of vertebrate populations on land or in the ocean. Large fish species are particularly affected.

"The results are alarming and confirm the fears of scientists involved in studying and protecting freshwater biodiversity," says Sonja Jähnig, senior author of the study and expert for global change effects on river ecosystems at IGB.

From 1970 to 2012, global populations of freshwater megafauna declined by 88 percent, most notably in the Indomalaya (by 99 percent) and Palearctic (by 97 percent) realms—the former covering South and Southeast Asia and southern China, and the latter covering Europe, North Africa and most of Asia. Large fish species such as sturgeons, salmonids and giant catfishes are particularly threatened: with a 94 percent decline, followed by reptiles with 72 percent. ...


Fengzhi He et al, The global decline of freshwater megafauna, Global Change Biology (2019)
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby radon1 » Fri 09 Aug 2019, 01:49:17

tire wrote:Let's assume


Instead of manufacturing some unrealistic situation where immigrants cease to exist at some point (at the end somebody had to populate NA in the first place), why not set out plainly what you really want to put into effect - worker protectionism.

Fine, this could work. Assuming that this protectionism is effective, bigger businesses will seek to pass the increased costs on the consumers. Smaller businesses may not be so lucky and may have to pay these costs themselves. This is assuming that they do find the workers who will do the work properly. Otherwise they will have to work longer hours themselves or altogether close. There is no free lunch, somebody will have to foot the bill.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Fri 09 Aug 2019, 01:57:38

onlooker wrote:"but due to the knock-on effects of overcrowding, information overload, an increased feeling of being unimportant and having no voice" And that is part of the symptoms of our hyper competitive Capitalist system. Competition is no longer a positive adaptation response. Not in a world where we are the undisputed Apex Predator. Not in a world where we face daunting common challenges. Not in a world where the impacts of our species is threatening our collective existence. Whatever positivity will exist in the future after emerging fron the bottleneck of a reduced carrying capacity on Earth and consequent large die offs of humans will be because the survivors will recognize how critical it is to live in harmony with each other and Nature. And so I think one can say that is in the best interest of all current and future humans

I disagree.
First thing to note is that "mouse utopia" is not survivable setup so it is pointless to consider those who emerge from a bottleneck.
Second thing is that our mouse utopia is rather first world urban problem and certainly not an universal global problem.
This is indicating bleak future of our "advanced peoples" who believe that milk is produced in factory and also those KJ alike.
My suspicion is that survivors will come from groups of resourceful peoples able to do useful tasks like farmers, doctors, mechanics etc, also from low IQ and voilent savages and also from high IQ ruthless peoples who do what fit regardless of anything.
Mexican drug cartels will do *exceedingly well* in US once organized state in US is strained enough.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby careinke » Fri 09 Aug 2019, 04:44:15

radon1 wrote:
tire wrote: But what would have happened if those same mexicans were simply not available?

The economy would enter permanent stagnation/recession/depression. The growth is based on incorporation of lower paid workers. No lower paid workers - no growth.


It was done by kids. Why do you think there was a summer break? Simple, Harvest Time.

When I was a kid, and young teen, I picked the following: Strawberries ($0.75 per flat), rouged spinach ($1.05/hr), cucumbers ($0.35 per five gallon bucket. My best money maker), Blueberries, and raspberries.

The farmers would run a school bus to pick us kids up, transport us between fields etc. Teachers and bus drivers worked as supervisors/quality control monitors and punched our cards when we turned in our produce.

Most of the berries were used for jams, jellies and candy. If you were a good picker, you got chosen to pick "market Berries." Then you went through the rows first, only picking the best berries, leaving the rest for the other pickers. Market berry pickers would routinely harvest 50% more than the other pickers.

My younger brother bucked hay and drove a Pea Viner (mostly at night). So other Ag jobs were also available to youth.

Most of the kids in school worked summer jobs, and most of them involved Agriculture or service related jobs.

My parents made me put half of my earnings towards school clothes and the other half was mine. Based on my own experiences, I would like to see more job opportunities for younger people. It certainly teaches you more about money than the government schools do.

Finally, if you put it into perspective, the pay was pretty good for a middle - high schooler. During my picking days a gallon of gas cost around a quarter, give or take a dime.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 09 Aug 2019, 07:10:14

careinke wrote:
radon1 wrote:
tire wrote: But what would have happened if those same mexicans were simply not available?

The economy would enter permanent stagnation/recession/depression. The growth is based on incorporation of lower paid workers. No lower paid workers - no growth.


It was done by kids. Why do you think there was a summer break? Simple, Harvest Time.


The summer break here in Panama is Dec 20 - Feb 28. This is when we harvest coffee. The 5 children of my administrator, now all adults, where helping to harvest our coffee during their summer breaks when they were in middle school and highschool. They earned the money for their school uniforms and their school books and also were able to buy smart phones.

OK, deport all the immigrants and make it mandatory for all children in the US to rotate in shifts to pick all the fruits and vegetables on farms. We would solve the following problems:

1) Immigration problem solved
2) Obesity rates would drop
3) Internet addiction moderated, getting kids out of doors
4) No more wars. Kids would find meaning in life and not join the military.
5) Political divisiveness would disappear as democrats and republicans would join side by side picking cabbages.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 09 Aug 2019, 07:19:12

tire wrote:I'm telling you what I think. I think everyone's "best interest" is of equal value. But I think the "best interest" of a citizen of a nation is of HIGHER value than "the best interest" of a foreigner.

What do you think?


I agree. Right now many American farmers, who are American citizens, require undocumented immigrant labor to survive financially.

Let's fix the immigration problem without calling it an emergency that requires some immediate action. Let's work toward this goal with sobriety understanding that a 50 year problem cannot be unwound by exciting peoples racism. In these 50 years undocumented immigrants have been woven into the economy, into the fabric of our culture.

There is no emergency here. There is a rational process possible.

Using racial hatred to solve our immigrant problem will have the opposite effect. It polarizes both sides and that is why we have this racism on the right and the left creating sanctuary cities as a response.

If you want to get to the fundamentals of this problem lets start with human decency.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 09 Aug 2019, 07:29:03

asg70 wrote:
Ibon wrote:Latinos are not entitled as a culture. They do not expect anything from their governments.


Patently false. Tell that to a receptionist of an ER in Southern California dealing with uninsured latinos.

They come to the US, drop an anchor baby, and then expect some sort of government support.

Yes, they're used to dealing with hardship from where they come from, but they don't deal with it if they don't HAVE to, and they don't expect to have to when they get here, due to regions in the US where they get handouts (driver's licenses, healthcare, etc...) no questions asked.


OMG Asg70, are you the 25th racist asshole on this site?

Put the undocumented latinos on government support in one column.
Put all the undocumented latinos working on farms, domestic labor and all the other jobs Americans dont want to do in another column.

What are we looking at? Do you even have a remote clue?

When I bought two fixer upper homes in South FLorida we renovated both homes using 100% undocumented latino labor. The local citizen handymen available were lazy, often alcoholic, were way to expensive for the limited productivity.

The Guatemalans and salvadorians who restored these homes arrived at 7:00am and oftenworked until 6:00pm. My wife often cooked them lunch. I had already started the project in Panama. So I was coming up from Panama where I had been starting the infrastructure and arrived in Florida and just continued the same routine, having a latino work crew.

There is simply no comparison when you put the labor output of your average undocumented latino immigrant next to most US citizen counterparts.

Ask any farmer.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby asg70 » Fri 09 Aug 2019, 07:37:07

Ibon wrote:OMG Asg70, are you the 25th racist asshole on this site?


And that's how you grind a discussion to a halt.

Ibon wrote:When I bought two fixer upper homes in South FLorida we renovated both homes using 100% undocumented latino labor.


So you're part of the problem. You want a medal for this?

We have laws for a reason.

Are you still technically a US citizen, btw? I don't think ex-pats should be weighing in on US problems when you don't have to deal with them. You've run away from them and are back-seat-driving.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby asg70 » Fri 09 Aug 2019, 07:57:37

onlooker wrote:And that is part of the symptoms of our hyper competitive Capitalist system.


As opposed to....Kafka-esque communism?

Image
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 09 Aug 2019, 08:15:24

asg70 wrote:Are you still technically a US citizen, btw? I don't think ex-pats should be weighing in on US problems when you don't have to deal with them. You've run away from them and are back-seat-driving.


The level of self denial around acknowledging ones racism is layers deep. Shaming people by not mincing words can in some cases penetrate that denial. That is not up to me but rather up to the receiver.

My perspective from outside the USA is a valuable input on this site exactly because I am not caught up in the daily grind of the dysfunction. I can pull the lens back, something you struggle with.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 09 Aug 2019, 09:47:06

asg70 wrote:
So you're part of the problem. You want a medal for this?


One mans problem another mans opportunity.

I embody the true entrepeneurial spirit of America.

So we tolerate the legal corruption of corporate lobbyists in Washington and you want to deny the little guy here who fixed up his home in the most cost effective / highest quality possible?
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 09 Aug 2019, 09:51:07

asg70 wrote:
So you're part of the problem. You want a medal for this?


I dont want a medal. I want profits.

We are selling that last property this September. Paid $110k for it. Fixed it up for $25k. Have a contract on it now for $265k.

And for 8 years we did short term rentals on that house netting another $130k after expenses.

I love capitalism. (SORRY ONLOOKER)
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Fri 09 Aug 2019, 10:59:30

Regarding employing immigrants, legal or not legal, doesn't matter.
While I was living in the UK our Eastern Europen childminders have saved us a little fortune.
Personally I was considering Brits who were reluctant to employ such peoples to be just... stupid loosers.
But those who are born as loosers will die as loosers as well.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 09 Aug 2019, 11:10:35

EnergyUnlimited wrote:
onlooker wrote:"but due to the knock-on effects of overcrowding, information overload, an increased feeling of being unimportant and having no voice" And that is part of the symptoms of our hyper competitive Capitalist system. Competition is no longer a positive adaptation response. Not in a world where we are the undisputed Apex Predator. Not in a world where we face daunting common challenges. Not in a world where the impacts of our species is threatening our collective existence. Whatever positivity will exist in the future after emerging fron the bottleneck of a reduced carrying capacity on Earth and consequent large die offs of humans will be because the survivors will recognize how critical it is to live in harmony with each other and Nature. And so I think one can say that is in the best interest of all current and future humans

I disagree.
First thing to note is that "mouse utopia" is not survivable setup so it is pointless to consider those who emerge from a bottleneck.
Second thing is that our mouse utopia is rather first world urban problem and certainly not an universal global problem.
This is indicating bleak future of our "advanced peoples" who believe that milk is produced in factory and also those KJ alike.
My suspicion is that survivors will come from groups of resourceful peoples able to do useful tasks like farmers, doctors, mechanics etc, also from low IQ and voilent savages and also from high IQ ruthless peoples who do what fit regardless of anything.
Mexican drug cartels will do *exceedingly well* in US once organized state in US is strained enough.

Our overpopulation problem is global given the environmental consequences overlapping the borders of many countries and the migration crisis. We are using The Mouse Utopia as a tool to compare but it is by no means an identical situation to the human situation. Finally, this is a salient point of disagreement that cannot be conclusively determined via our suppositions on this site. Some think we will inevitably descend into competitive barbarism, others like me see the possibility of a new beginning for our species based on a strict code of ethics that encompasses cooperation and harmonious living. Ibon you also have this belief but in the meantime you do what you have to and wish to, No hypocrisy. As oppossed to ASG, who likes to lecture us and yet still seems all too attached to the umbilical cord of civilization
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Fri 09 Aug 2019, 11:24:41

onlooker wrote:Some think we will inevitably descend into competitive barbarism, others like me see the possibility of a new beginning for our species based on a strict code of ethics that encompasses cooperation and harmonious living.

Chinese are standing a chance for that but with american ethnic mix and demographic trends this cow won't fly.
But it is only my opinion. Can be wrong.
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