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THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby careinke » Mon 07 Oct 2019, 00:08:38

kublikhan wrote:+2

Thanks Outcast_Searcher for going through the trouble and showing that ICE still makes financial sense at this time.


I'm not arguing with Outcast_Searchers statements or math. The example I gave was specific to this Zip Code, using local data and conditions. I was under the impression I made that clear. Of course if the data is different in your zip code, you will obviously get different results.

Actually, this spotlights a bigger issue. There are lots of solutions everywhere, but no solution works everywhere. In Permaculture, the phrase "It Depends" sums up this idea in two words. *WARNING* If you take this to heart and add in a nonaggression ethic, you may become an Anarchist!

So, if you take the nationwide average, as you pointed out, it makes no sense. That does not mean it doesn't make sense anywhere in the US. It appears it may make sense here for certain people and that was the jist of my original post.

I can think of LOTS of different places where EV could work very well with the right systems: Deserts (combined with solar), States using Hydro power, places with cheaper electric rates at night, etc. But it wont work everywhere, so let's toss the idea out. This is socialist thinking. Who knows maybe the problem isn't EVs, but expensive electricity.

To me; 195 nations are safer than one world government for the very same reason. I'd rather have 195 nations looking for solutions to their local problems than one world government trying to find a solution that applies everywhere.

Anyway, nice analysis Outcast.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby ralfy » Mon 07 Oct 2019, 02:55:12

Not just financial but common sense, as many countries lack electric grids, roads, etc.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby Plantagenet » Mon 07 Oct 2019, 11:01:21

The Wall Street Journal is reporting that the real reason the GM strike is taking so long to resolve is EVs.

As GM (and other carmakers) shift to making more EVs and fewer ICE vehicles, they don't need as many workers. EVs have fewer parts and they are more easily assembled by robots.

So the UAW is going to the mat with GM, trying to win guarantees that jobs won't be lost.

Hence the long strike.

Cheers!
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People who buy new cars and then cry crocodile tears over climate change. The manufacture of a typical new car emits ca. 16 tons of CO2 and a new EV is actually much worse since the battery also has to be manufactured, resulting in a total carbon footprint of ca. 30 tons of CO2
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Mon 07 Oct 2019, 11:14:06

careinke wrote:
kublikhan wrote:+2

Thanks Outcast_Searcher for going through the trouble and showing that ICE still makes financial sense at this time.


I'm not arguing with Outcast_Searchers statements or math. The example I gave was specific to this Zip Code, using local data and conditions. I was under the impression I made that clear. Of course if the data is different in your zip code, you will obviously get different results.

Actually, this spotlights a bigger issue. There are lots of solutions everywhere, but no solution works everywhere. In Permaculture, the phrase "It Depends" sums up this idea in two words. *WARNING* If you take this to heart and add in a nonaggression ethic, you may become an Anarchist!

So, if you take the nationwide average, as you pointed out, it makes no sense. That does not mean it doesn't make sense anywhere in the US. It appears it may make sense here for certain people and that was the jist of my original post.

I can think of LOTS of different places where EV could work very well with the right systems: Deserts (combined with solar), States using Hydro power, places with cheaper electric rates at night, etc. But it wont work everywhere, so let's toss the idea out. This is socialist thinking. Who knows maybe the problem isn't EVs, but expensive electricity.

To me; 195 nations are safer than one world government for the very same reason. I'd rather have 195 nations looking for solutions to their local problems than one world government trying to find a solution that applies everywhere.

Anyway, nice analysis Outcast.

Thanks careinke.

To be clear, which I hope already was from my tone and comment re enjoying an adult conversation using facts and figures, I was just making clear that your statement that it looked so beneficial locally didn't hold over a large portion of the nation, looking at typical/average pricing.

Your comment above re no solution working everywhere is a great point. Maybe it will some day if prices for EV's descend enough, but perhaps not. At that point, if TPTB want to enforce CO2 mitigation, they might have to ban ICE's for personal transport -- and people will just have to eat the cost, just like they do for all sorts of things today to live in certain areas (very high housing costs in many big cities, to cite one example). The plans in places like Europe to start banning ICE's by 2030 or 2040 seem to be harbingers of the potential for that.
(OTOH, HEV's might be around in such cities for much longer, depending on things like pollution, how rapidly AGW impacts unfold, etc.)

If my response seemed hostile in any way, then that's MY BAD, as that wasn't my intention. Adults can discuss various angles of different facts, figures, trends, etc. without any acrimony at all.

Looking back, I should have said something about seeing how that could work great in your area, but not (yet) for much of the country.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Mon 07 Oct 2019, 11:20:25

Plantagenet wrote:The Wall Street Journal is reporting that the real reason the GM strike is taking so long to resolve is EVs.

As GM (and other carmakers) shift to making more EVs and fewer ICE vehicles, they don't need as many workers. EVs have fewer parts and they are more easily assembled by robots.

So the UAW is going to the mat with GM, trying to win guarantees that jobs won't be lost.

Hence the long strike.

Cheers!

Given the financial holes GM has dug for itself providing such labor guarantees in the past, and having had to "employ" workers in US plants to play cards, etc. since they weren't needed -- that might turn out to be a very interesting fight.

This sort of thing (and now GM has been laying off a lot of non-union workers, and may well have to continue to do so if this drags on), where the union tries to sacrifice the financial interests of the company to score points with the workers, is the problem I have with unions -- at least in places where the union / company relationship is fundamentally hostile.

I've seen documentaries filmed in places like Scandinavia and Germany, where it seems like the union and the company/industry work together and try to help all parties involved. Technology is adopted, workers keep their jobs (retrained to use new technology), companies stay competitive and make money. Oh, and since the employees aren't afraid of losing their jobs to new technology, they embrace new technology, which makes them more productive and helps their employer. Everyone seems to get what they want, overall. What a concept. :idea:

And, I think I should point out that such a cooperative system requires a solid educational foundation, and requires companies to be WILLING to support and pay for necessary retraining.

As someone who experienced nearly 3 decades of work at a major US corporation (which reflected trends occurring across much of the US corporate climate), the attitude toward retraining and education (reflecting thinking of employees as long term assets/partners vs. short term expense items) shifting from great to terrible by the company was the single biggest change in corporate behavior, in my mind.

The cause seemed to be a shift strongly toward short term thinking re expense mitigation, instead of a long term shift toward growth and productivity (requiring highly skilled, loyal, hard working employees).

Clearly, unions working with a fundamental us vs. them mindset isn't going to help this trend any.

Whether the US with its culture and mindset can become more like Germany and Scandinavian countries like Sweden and Switzerland in this regard is unclear. I suppose some people might regard this as "socialist" thinking. I would opine I'm looking for what seems to work.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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