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THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Mon 17 Jun 2019, 21:48:42

Plantagenet wrote:The Honda E, a very cute EV city car, is now available for pre-order in Europe. It looks a little like a Fiat 500.

honda-e

With a range of ca. 125 miles its designed mainly for urban driving and commuting. Very small cars like the Honda E are very popular in Europe but I don't know if Honda is planning to release the Honda E in the US where most people want larger cars and trucks.
Cheers!

A small, reliable BEV with limited range might well appeal to me as little as I drive. At least as my main daily car to putter around town.

But I'd want it to be cheap, to reflect the lack of range, compared to an ICE or HEV.

Instead I see things like the Honda Clarity Electric BEV with a 89 mile estimated range. (So more like 40 or 50 mile range safely, once several years old and in bad weather). And it STARTS at $36,620, or over 150% as much as I've ever spent on a new car. (Seems like a weird choice by Honda, when the Clarity PHEV is rated at 47 miles on battery only with NO range anxiety, and starting at over $3000 less).

Looking at the Honda E and seeing its estimated range at 200 km, or about 125 miles, I'll bet it retails for over $30K to start in the US. And with that range, I'd still need to rent a car for various day trips I make. (Since 125 miles might be less than 100ish real world miles and getting stuck on the highway and having to be towed in isn't acceptable to me. Nor is running the battery down to almost empty, and shortening its life.)

If I were in the market soon, I think I'd rather look at the 2020 Corolla Hybrid from $22,950, vs. the Honda E. Again, no range anxiety, and Corollas and the Prius HEV have been great cars.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Mon 17 Jun 2019, 22:13:16

OS, here is the EV I favor, which costs $3K, shipped to your door: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t--JGQhvvlo
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Mon 17 Jun 2019, 23:44:16

KaiserJeep wrote:OS, here is the EV I favor, which costs $3K, shipped to your door: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t--JGQhvvlo

For where you're going to be, looks great for, say, the warmest 8 months of the year. That's if you can get it serviced/fixed at reasonable cost and effort.

That's the biggest challenge I see to these. Until there are some sort of standards for parts, service will be a real challenge.

At least this looks powerful, stable, reasonably fast, and isn't wildly overpriced for what it is, though $3K for a bike which will likely need lots of expensive maintenance still doesn't hit my intuitive "value" point yet.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Tue 18 Jun 2019, 23:12:49

$3k is mid-range pricing for an e-bike.

People ride them on Nantucket to eleviate traffic gridlock. There are a couple of local bike shops that sell and service Sun Seeker. I have seen people on Mopeds in the Winter, using electrically heated clothing (i.e. electric snowmobile outfits). But really, gridlock is non-existent in Winter.

In Wisconsin, the laws have not quite caught up yet, the legal status of e-bikes is unknown. They are however, selling rapidly and are all over the roads.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Wed 19 Jun 2019, 14:08:52

KaiserJeep wrote:$3k is mid-range pricing for an e-bike.

People ride them on Nantucket to eleviate traffic gridlock. There are a couple of local bike shops that sell and service Sun Seeker. I have seen people on Mopeds in the Winter, using electrically heated clothing (i.e. electric snowmobile outfits). But really, gridlock is non-existent in Winter.

In Wisconsin, the laws have not quite caught up yet, the legal status of e-bikes is unknown. They are however, selling rapidly and are all over the roads.

I wasn't saying $3K is too high, given the price of e-bikes. I was saying I think e-bikes are still high, considering what you get for the money.

That's GREAT if you have two local bike shops that service that brand. If that becomes common across the country, then assuming competence and parts availability (like you have for non-Tesla cars, generally), then that problem is largely solved for the US and that would be terrific news indeed.

In fact, if you live in an area that handles popular e-bike repairs well, then the $3K sounds much more reasonable to me. It's paying that and then needing to wait weeks to months to get something fixed as bikes or parts are shipped thousands of miles, etc. or the owner waits for parts to become available (via various youtube videos about the e-bike experience for various brands / models) that, to me, really detracts from the value equation. Especially if I have to fix something complex myself.

It's interesting how personalities differ. For me, moving to a place where traffic grid-lock is a fact of life, prices are high, and it's cold in winter, would be a non-starter. But it's great to live in a country where there are lots of viable choices, and the freedom to make those choices within the limits of your finances.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Wed 19 Jun 2019, 14:54:49

Well, having your wife inherit an island home worth $1M, with the estate paying the inheritance taxes, helps. Plus I lived there for years when in my 20's. It is a unique and fascinating place, that unfortunately has a problem, which is that the Summer population is 12X the Winter population. Even native islanders have condos and homes in Miami.

E-bikes and e-trikes are dirt cheap, compared to $25k 2-seater EVs, $50K 4-seater EVs, and $100K 7-seat EVs. Plus the efficiency of riding around on a vehicle that weighs less than the payload (me and a couple of bags of groceries) has an appeal to my engineer's mind.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby GHung » Wed 19 Jun 2019, 15:24:05

KaiserJeep wrote:Well, having your wife inherit an island home worth $1M, with the estate paying the inheritance taxes, helps. Plus I lived there for years when in my 20's. It is a unique and fascinating place, that unfortunately has a problem, which is that the Summer population is 12X the Winter population. Even native islanders have condos and homes in Miami.

E-bikes and e-trikes are dirt cheap, compared to $25k 2-seater EVs, $50K 4-seater EVs, and $100K 7-seat EVs. Plus the efficiency of riding around on a vehicle that weighs less than the payload (me and a couple of bags of groceries) has an appeal to my engineer's mind.


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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby Plantagenet » Thu 20 Jun 2019, 18:15:19

The EV environmental disaster

saving-the-planet-with-electric-cars-means-strangling-this-desert

The rise of the EV industry has meant the initiation of large-scale mining operations in some of the most pristine and beautiful areas on earth. In addition to the environmental destruction created by the new mines, the carbon footprint involved in mining in extremely remote areas is also quite large, and then more carbon is released as the raw materials are processed, and more carbon is released as they are shipped to a factory, and more carbon is released as the new car is manufactured. By the time you add it all up, probably the most environmentally sensitive thing one can do is just keep driving the old car a few years longer instead of buying a new one.

AND, the carbon footprint of manufacturing and EV is twice as bad as the carbon footprint of manufacturing a new ICE car. The basic carbon footprint for a car is about 7-10 ton of CO2 for either ICE or EVs, but another 9 tons of CO2 is released during the mining, transport of raw materials, and manufacture of the EV battery.

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby GHung » Thu 20 Jun 2019, 18:45:51

Plantagenet wrote:The EV environmental disaster

saving-the-planet-with-electric-cars-means-strangling-this-desert

The rise of the EV industry has meant the initiation of large-scale mining operations in some of the most pristine and beautiful areas on earth. In addition to the environmental destruction created by the new mines, the carbon footprint involved in mining in extremely remote areas is also quite large, and then more carbon is released as the raw materials are processed, and more carbon is released as they are shipped to a factory, and more carbon is released as the new car is manufactured. By the time you add it all up, probably the most environmentally sensitive thing one can do is just keep driving the old car a few years longer instead of buying a new one.


How much have you made off the Alaska Permanent Fund ("the amazing true socialist miracle")? What's the total carbon footprint of those jets you like to fly around the world in?

AND, the carbon footprint of manufacturing and EV is twice as bad as the carbon footprint of manufacturing a new ICE car. The basic carbon footprint for a car is about 7-10 ton of CO2 for either ICE or EVs, but another 9 tons of CO2 is released during the mining, transport of raw materials, and manufacture of the EV battery.


.... and the ongoing carbon footprint of those old ice cars is about 19 pounds of CO2 per gallon of fuel burned. Do the math and get back to us.

Cheers!
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby asg70 » Thu 20 Jun 2019, 19:42:45

GHung wrote:How much have you made off the Alaska Permanent Fund ("the amazing true socialist miracle")? What's the total carbon footprint of those jets you like to fly around the world in?


Bingo. The problem with Plant is when he is repeatedly hoisted on his own petard he never actually faces his own hypocrisy but just ignores the criticism and continues onward with his FUD/projection/partisan sniping.

He's a fool if he thinks this is any way to earn any sort of credibility in discussing these issues.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby Plantagenet » Thu 20 Jun 2019, 20:03:20

asg70 wrote:Plant .....He's a fool if he thinks this is any way to earn any sort of credibility in discussing these issues.


You're a fool if you think calling people names instead of calmly and rationally discussing the facts gets you any credibility in discussing these issues.

--------------------------------------------

So we've established that the carbon footprint of manufacturing an EV is twice or more greater that of manufacturing an ICE vehicle. That raises an interesting question....are EVs actually releasing more CO2 to the atmosphere then ICE vehicles when you include the CO2 released during the mining and manufacturing process?

So lets look at the total CO2 emissions over the life of the car.....we know that much more CO2 is emitted to make the EV, but the EV emits less in operation....so are EVs or ICE vehicles worse when you factor in the whole period of use of the car?

Image
Here's a comparison between an ICE BMW and a Tesla done by Bernstein. It shows that so much more CO2 is emitted during the manufacture of an EV that even over the life of the car the EV actually is responsible for more CO2 emissions than a comparable ICE car.

The final number was 22.8 tons of CO2 released over the life of the ICE vehicle, and 27.1 tons of CO2 released by the Tesla. That means the Tesla EV will release about 4.3 tons more CO2 then the ICE vehicle.

I've seen other calculations that show EVs are slightly better than an ICE car....but the facts are clear. BOTH EVs and ICE vehicles release significant amounts of CO2. You can't evaluate how much CO2 is released by EVs without including the amount of CO2 that is released during the mining and manufacturing of EV vehicles and especially the surprisingly large of amounts of CO2 released during the mining of Lithium and the manufacture of EV batteries.

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby dolanbaker » Fri 21 Jun 2019, 02:09:48

Ah yes, the old trick of only using a coal powered electricity generation station for the fuel calculation. Do the same sums anywhere else that generates electricity using a mix of fuels or mostly renewables, and the EV wins out every time, plus the fact that EVs will last longer as well.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby asg70 » Fri 21 Jun 2019, 07:16:36

Plantagenet wrote:calmly and rationally discussing the facts


Passive-aggressive snipes like yours aren't "calm and rational" discussions.

And seriously, nothing you've decided to crap into this thread is at all new information. This is boilerplate Koch-brothers style FUD of the sort that goes back to when the right started bashing the green creds of the Prius 20 years ago.

I don't see how this is at all topical or important to discuss.

You've just decided for whatever reason to go on an anti-BEV bender, just like you did when you were busy trying to prove that the EMI of EVs cause cancer. You go on these tears for a few weeks and then get bored and move onto something else.

It's like you expect the entire forum to just get swept up into the same seesaw of your outrage-machine...just because. Doesn't work like that.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 21 Jun 2019, 10:54:06

dolanbaker wrote:Ah yes, the old trick of only using a coal powered electricity generation station for the fuel calculation. Do the same sums anywhere else that generates electricity using a mix of fuels or mostly renewables, and the EV wins out every time, plus the fact that EVs will last longer as well.


Hi Dolan.

You missed the point of the data I posted. Think about this for a second.

Just looking at the CO2 released during the operation of the EV vs. the operation of an ICE vehicle is only part of the story.

You also have to consider how much CO2 is released during the mining and manufacturing of the cars.

AND much much more CO2 is released during the manufacture of EVs as opposed to ICE vehicles. So much CO2 is released during the mining of lithium and the manufacturing of the EV battery that at least twice as much CO2 is released to build an EV as opposed to a ICE car. AND the much larger CO2 footprint created during the manufacturing of the EV has to be considered when comparing ICE and EV vehicles.

I'm not disputing that EVs release less CO2 then ICE vehicles during operation. I'm pointing out that much more CO2 is released during the manufacture of EVs and their batteries then is released during the manufacture of an ICE vehicle ---- so much more that the carbon footprint of EVs and ICE vehicles isn't all that different over the total life of the car.

Image
You have to consider the CO2 released during the mining, refining, transport and manufacture of LI batteries when looking at total EV CO2 release......and the carbon footprint of manufacturing LI batteries for EVs is HUGE! The amount of CO2 released during the manufacture of an EV and its LI battery can be twice or more the CO2 released during the manufacture of an ICE vehicle.

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby asg70 » Fri 21 Jun 2019, 13:05:45

^^^ Following his modus-operandi just as I said he would.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby eclipse » Sun 23 Jun 2019, 00:31:08

You have to consider the CO2 released during the mining, refining, transport and manufacture of LI batteries when looking at total EV CO2 release......and the carbon footprint of manufacturing LI batteries for EVs is HUGE! The amount of CO2 released during the manufacture of an EV and its LI battery can be twice or more the CO2 released during the manufacture of an ICE vehicle.

And when all those mining trucks are also CO2 neutral? When the mines are powered by Molten Salt Reactors and electric trucks or synthetic diesel? When the lithium batteries are recycled using MSR's? Basically, as we wean off oil, we'll also be weaning off fossil fuels in the mining industry. Even smelting doesn't need coking coal now that we know we can use hydrogen as a reductant.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby asg70 » Sun 23 Jun 2019, 01:10:27

Don't feed the troll.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby dolanbaker » Sun 23 Jun 2019, 04:53:41

Plantagenet wrote:
dolanbaker wrote:Ah yes, the old trick of only using a coal powered electricity generation station for the fuel calculation. Do the same sums anywhere else that generates electricity using a mix of fuels or mostly renewables, and the EV wins out every time, plus the fact that EVs will last longer as well.


Hi Dolan.

You missed the point of the data I posted. Think about this for a second.

Just looking at the CO2 released during the operation of the EV vs. the operation of an ICE vehicle is only part of the story.

You also have to consider how much CO2 is released during the mining and manufacturing of the cars.

AND much much more CO2 is released during the manufacture of EVs as opposed to ICE vehicles. So much CO2 is released during the mining of lithium and the manufacturing of the EV battery that at least twice as much CO2 is released to build an EV as opposed to a ICE car. AND the much larger CO2 footprint created during the manufacturing of the EV has to be considered when comparing ICE and EV vehicles.

I'm not disputing that EVs release less CO2 then ICE vehicles during operation. I'm pointing out that much more CO2 is released during the manufacture of EVs and their batteries then is released during the manufacture of an ICE vehicle ---- so much more that the carbon footprint of EVs and ICE vehicles isn't all that different over the total life of the car.

Image
You have to consider the CO2 released during the mining, refining, transport and manufacture of LI batteries when looking at total EV CO2 release......and the carbon footprint of manufacturing LI batteries for EVs is HUGE! The amount of CO2 released during the manufacture of an EV and its LI battery can be twice or more the CO2 released during the manufacture of an ICE vehicle.

CHEERS!

The funniest part of that reply is the source of the image used!
It actually links to snopes who debunk the claim! :lol:

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/lithi ... oil-sands/

The image, however, does not feature a photograph of a lithium mine. The top portion of the image shows BHP’s Escondida copper mine in Chile, one of the largest such mines in the world:


asg70 wrote:Don't feed the troll.

This troll needs to eat his words!
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby asg70 » Sun 23 Jun 2019, 08:57:21

dolanbaker wrote:The funniest part of that reply is the source of the image used!
It actually links to snopes who debunk the claim! :lol:
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/lithi ... oil-sands/


Good one.

Image

Of course, that won't stop Plant from doubling-down. The ego demands protection.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sun 23 Jun 2019, 12:17:11

dolanbaker wrote: ...snopes who debunk the claim!


If you actually read the scopes article it doesn't debunk the claim, which is that mining lithium causes environmental damage.

There is no doubt that mining lithium is environmentally destructive. Your suggestion the problem has been "debunked" is just silly. How exactly do you imagine you can do industrial scale mining of lithium in very remote and pristine places without producing environmental damage?

asg70/ennui/mos wrote:... troll.


In post after post you attack other posters and call them names. Thats really about all you do here.

You've been banned twice before for your behavior and now you are back doing it again. I think its time for you to level with us....do you have some kind of obsessive/aggressive disorder or some other mental problem that makes you act out like this? Pray tell.......

Cheers!
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