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THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby eclipse » Sun 05 May 2019, 01:36:13

Agreed. But here we are in suburbia. If robot-mini-van taxis help make car dependent suburbanites feel more secure as we also campaign for New Urbanism, then good. Driving to the town square destroys the town square (due to parking requirements and resulting regulations.) But if robot-taxis just drop you in a loading bay, then maybe it can become a potential bridging technology. The real battle? Convincing law makers and town planners that we need proper public transport supporting the various flavours of ecocity and New Urban design. Convincing people that suburbia isn't the western dream. That cars don't represent freedom, but entrapment. That's the challenge.
Dr James Hansen recommends breeder reactors that convert nuclear 'waste' into 1000 years of clean energy for America, and can charge all our light vehicles and generate "Blue Crude" for heavy vehicles.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby asg70 » Sun 05 May 2019, 22:53:53

eclipse wrote:
asg70 wrote:Tell that to the family members of the Tesla Mt. View accident.

Yes, one death is a tragedy, but 37,461 per year is a statistic. Imagine that cutting down to 3,746!


Which could be cut down without full autonomy, and hence without stupid deaths caused by autonomy bugs and limitations.

Seriously, people do not buy Tesla's with the mindset of test-pilots and their deaths should not be counted as the cost of progress ala the brave crew of Apollo 1. Their deaths are, IMHO, corporate negligent cases like Firestone tires, Corvairs flipping over, Pintos exploding, etc...

To date all autopilot fatalities have been men. Will we continue to blame drivers and shrug our shoulders at autopilot fatalities when a few women die? Women with kids in booster seats, maybe?

I'm not trying to FUD here. I'm just saying that we should not be so drunk and giddy and frothy at the mouth on the idea of autonomy that we give these companies a free pass to gamble our lives on admittedly beta and buggy software. Just one avoidable death is too many. It's far too much of an unregulated wild-west right now.

eclipse wrote:every time there's an autonomous accident there's an investigation, and a new patch downloaded for the entire fleet.


And unfortunately no true accountability on the part of Tesla.

eclipse wrote:I see what you did there. You just extrapolated human driving statistics onto automated car statistics when the automakers are already predicting a 90% drop in accidents? 8)


1) predict = the future, not now.

2) the reason people tend to fear flying more than driving is a lack of control. If a plane goes into a tailspin, you know you're dead and you have to suffer from that knowledge during the duration of the tailspin. Same deal with a parachute that won't open. Even if autnomous cars crash less often, would you be willing to ride in one if you knew there was a small chance when you were sleeping it that the computer might lockup or hit a bad subroutine or get blinded by a piece of birdshit that hits the lens and smash headfirst into a gore-point, killing you instantly? The answer is no, you would not, because you would feel that you were giving control over your life to something else.


eclipse wrote:There's some way to go in all of these, and every time there's a problem and update, the WHOLE FLEET gets better and will not make the same mistake next time.


In theory. Wake me when we get there.

eclipse wrote:But give it time.


Sure. The question is...how MUCH time is it gonna take?

You seem inclined to believe Tesla's timetable. I think that is way way off.
Last edited by asg70 on Sun 05 May 2019, 23:07:08, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sun 05 May 2019, 23:02:15

eclipse wrote:t if robot-taxis just drop you in a loading bay, then maybe it can become a potential bridging technology. The real battle? Convincing law makers and town planners that we need proper public transport supporting the various flavours of ecocity and New Urban design. Convincing people that suburbia isn't the western dream. That cars don't represent freedom, but entrapment. That's the challenge.


Wouldn't it save a lot of time and money just to move directly to building the needed public transport systems (light rail, high speed rail, etc.) rather then wasting trillions of dollars and untold years on this fantasy of "robo-taxis?"

We know how to build light rail and other kinds of EV public transit now. Why waste years waiting for robo taxis to be built first?

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I'd rather have a real light rail system now then an imaginary robo taxi system later.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby asg70 » Sun 05 May 2019, 23:10:38

Plantagenet wrote:Wouldn't it save a lot of time and money just to move directly to building the needed public transport


Nope, because private industry works and government is irrevocably broken. They can't even maintain existing public transit, let alone expand. Also, public transit will never solve the last-mile problem.

Plantagenet wrote:I'd rather have a real light rail system now then an imaginary robo taxi system later.


I'd rather have lots of things. Unfortunately we have to live in the real world. Consider that doomers were sure we'd be living in Mad Max conditions by now. This entire debate seems rather "First world problems" if you think about it.

BTW, I don't see robo-taxis as a substitute for public transit. I see them as a substitute for carpooling, since carpooling never caught on.

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sun 05 May 2019, 23:23:20

asg70 wrote:.... private industry works and government is irrevocably broken. They can't even maintain existing public transit, let alone expand.


It rather depends on where you live. For instance, in places like Europe and in China public transit is very successful and continues to expand, with both new high speed rail networks and local electric tram networks still building out in some areas.

asg70 wrote:This entire debate seems rather "First world problems" if you think about it.


Of course.

Cheers!
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby kublikhan » Mon 06 May 2019, 01:14:42

asg70 wrote:
Plantagenet wrote:Wouldn't it save a lot of time and money just to move directly to building the needed public transport
Nope, because private industry works and government is irrevocably broken. They can't even maintain existing public transit, let alone expand.
Mass transit doesn't need to be publicly owned. The larger problem is the suburbanization of the US. Mass transit works best in high density areas. In the far flung low density suburbs of the US you run into a problem of long stretches of expensive rail and not enough riders to justify the expense. We need to address our transportation polices together with our urban planning policies to come up with a better system.

The rail networks of Japan's three largest metropolitan areas – Tokyo, Nagoya, and Osaka – are perhaps the most efficient in the world. The country's flagship high-speed line, the Tokaido Shinkansen, has operated for almost half a century without a single derailment or collision, and in 2007, its average departure delay was a mere 18 seconds along its 320-mile route. But high-speed rail only scratches the surface. The real marvel lies in the mesmerizing tangle of workaday metro and commuter lines.

Beyond the astonishing size and quality of the networks, Japan's three major metropolitan areas, sometimes called the Tokaido megalopolis after its Edo-era road, are also home to a vibrant free market in transportation. Singapore and Hong Kong also have private companies, but competition is weak compared to Japan's dizzying array of independent firms. Japan has by no means a completely free transportation market – even the private companies receive low-interest construction loans and are subject to price controls and rolling stock protectionism – but at the moment, it's the closest thing this planet has.

As the post-war years marched on, the private railways proved to be more efficient than those run by the state, which were hemorrhaging cash. It was understandable that lines outside the big cities might need subsidies, but there was no excuse for operating losses in the dense Tokaido megalopolis. So in 1987, the government privatized the Japanese National Railways (JNR), which operated every type of transit except trams and inner-city metros. JR East, JR Central, and JR West, the three spin-offs operating around Tokyo, Nagoya, and Osaka, respectively, emerged healthy and profitable. They were able to pay back their construction debt and make capital improvements to their networks, reversing the stagnation and decline that JNR had seen over the previous decade.

Privatization was later applied to Tokyo Metro, the largest subway network in the city. And according to Tatsuhiko Suga, who has been active in Japanese railways for decades and now leads Japan's Foundation for Transport Publications, the city's other metro network, Toei, may also be thrown into the mix by the time the process is complete.

Privatization was a boon to railways in Japan's dense metropolises, and especially Tokyo, but it's revealed weaknesses elsewhere. As America also learned during its post-war urban exodus, declining population and rising car ownership are a recipe for disaster for private railways, and the government must step in if service is to be maintained. But for healthy cities like Tokyo, comprehensive privatization has proven to be a successful agent of revitalization for moribund public systems. Who knows – maybe if America's urban renaissance advances far enough, the United States will one day return its rails to their free market roots.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby asg70 » Mon 06 May 2019, 12:30:49

kublikhan wrote:We need to address our transportation polices together with our urban planning policies to come up with a better system.


We? There is no "we" in the US. We're an atomized public that does whatever we individually want to do--when we want to do it. That's why EVs work. They map well to our hyper-individualist consumerist society. Generally speaking, we don't want to be told where to live, don't want to have to get to and from a train station, don't want to wait for it to arrive, don't want to spend extra time for it to keep stopping at each station and winding its way from point A to B vs. a more direct car route, and don't want to be packed in like sardine-cans. Whether trains are more efficient or not doesn't enter into the mix.

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby kublikhan » Mon 06 May 2019, 13:25:06

You'd be surprised at how subtle changes in the law and/or government policies can influence behavoir. The suburbs did not spring up out of nothing. Redlining practices and new zoning laws encouraged their rapid expansion. Cheap FHA/VA loans financed it. Of course this also works the otherway around. A New Urbanism movement is underway to encourage walkable cities, the way cities were for the overwhelming majority of human history.

New Urbanism is an urban design movement which promotes environmentally friendly habits by creating walkable neighborhoods containing a wide range of housing and job types. It arose in the United States in the early 1980s, and has gradually influenced many aspects of real estate development, urban planning, and municipal land-use strategies.

New Urbanism is strongly influenced by urban design practices that were prominent until the rise of the automobile prior to World War II; it encompasses ten basic principles such as traditional neighborhood design (TND) and transit-oriented development (TOD). These ideas can all be circled back to two concepts: building a sense of community and the development of ecological practices.

Background
Until the mid 20th century, cities were generally organized into and developed around mixed-use walkable neighborhoods. For most of human history this meant a city that was entirely walkable, although with the development of mass transit the reach of the city extended outward along transit lines, allowing for the growth of new pedestrian communities such as streetcar suburbs. But with the advent of cheap automobiles and favorable government policies, attention began to shift away from cities and towards ways of growth more focused on the needs of the car.[6] Specifically, after World War II urban planning largely centered around the use of municipal zoning ordinances to segregate residential from commercial and industrial development, and focused on the construction of low-density single-family detached houses as the preferred housing format for the growing middle class. The physical separation of where people live from where they work, shop and frequently spend their recreational time, together with low housing density, which often drastically reduced population density relative to historical norms, made automobiles indispensable for practical transportation and contributed to the emergence of a culture of automobile dependency.

This new system of development, with its rigorous separation of uses, arose after World War II and became known as "conventional suburban development" or pejoratively as urban sprawl. The majority of U.S. citizens now live in suburban communities built in the last fifty years, and automobile use per capita has soared.

Examples

United States
New Urbanism is having a growing influence on how and where metropolitan regions choose to grow. At least fourteen large-scale planning initiatives are based on the principles of linking transportation and land-use policies, and using the neighborhood as the fundamental building block of a region. Miami, Florida, has adopted the most ambitious New Urbanist-based zoning code reform yet undertaken by a major U.S. city.

More than six hundred new towns, villages, and neighborhoods, following New Urbanist principles, have been planned or are currently under construction in the U.S. Hundreds of new, small-scale, urban and suburban infill projects are under way to reestablish walkable streets and blocks. In Maryland and several other states, New Urbanist principles are an integral part of smart growth legislation.

In the mid-1990s, the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) adopted the principles of the New Urbanism in its multibillion-dollar program to rebuild public housing projects nationwide. New Urbanists have planned and developed hundreds of projects in infill locations. Most were driven by the private sector, but many, including HUD projects, used public money.
New Urbanism

It could turn out to be the first step in a sea change about how the federal government approaches urbanism, which in turn could lead to the end of sprawl. Or, to paraphrase Nixon, we are all New Urbanists now.

It’s time the federal government stopped encouraging sprawl,” Housing and Urban Development (HUD) Secretary Shaun Donovan declared this morning before the Congress for the New Urbanism. He’d announced moments before that the department would fund $3 billion worth of projects this year alone, and they’d henceforth use “location efficiency” (based on transportation access, residential density, and so on) to score grant applications. They’ll also use the criteria of LEED-ND, the brainchild of CNU, the U.S. Green Building Council, and the National Resources Defense Council, Donovan said. It was launched last month to apply the green principles of LEED to urban development.

The implications go beyond funding for public housing. Last year, HUD joined the Department of Transportation and the Environmental Protection Agency in creating the Interagency Partnership for Sustainable Communities, an effort to think holistically about housing, transportation, and quality of life when awarding tens of billions of dollars in federal funds.

“This is not about the federal government telling communities what they need to look like — we tried that before,” he added, alluding to the disastrous “urban renewal” policies of the 1960s. “This is people voting with their feet, as they want to move to communities with more transportation options. The President understands this, and place is clearly part of this discussion in a way it hasn’t been before.” The New Urbanists understood this before anyone else, he told them. “Our challenge is to bring that holistic view into the mainstream,” and to “take it to scale.”
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby asg70 » Mon 06 May 2019, 16:13:59

Note the date on that article (2010). I think New Urbanism died with the fracking boom. If anything it's a euphamism for gentrification.

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby kublikhan » Mon 06 May 2019, 17:23:08

If you want something more recent:

JAN. 14, 2019 - After a groundbreaking year, CNU is gearing up for more action and progress in the next 12 months and beyond. CNU has inspired change. Our ideas and approaches have been adopted and implemented by allied (and not-so-allied) organizations, state and local governments, and urban design and development professionals throughout the U.S. and abroad.

Our goal is to reach 42,000 local governments with zoning authority in five years. Working collaboratively with state partners on the development and dissemination of code reforms, we have begun creating state-specific guides that will enable us to reach this goal.

Looking internationally, in April, CNU was selected as an official Urban Design Provider to the Chinese government. Chinese cities can now request CNU training and design assistance from the Chinese State Administration of Foreign Affairs Experts (SAFEA).

Finally, we launched a project database that features New Urbanist Projects from the US and around the world. While far from complete, in 2019, we will continue to add and map projects.
2018 in review and a preview of 2019

June 5, 2018 - As our current demographics are changing, we are seeing a shift in housing priorities due to the two largest generations in American history, the baby boomers (born 1946-1964) and the millennials (born 1979-1996). Many baby boomers are now approaching retirement and downsizing since they no longer live with their children. This makes walkable neighborhoods more appealing to them, located in the denser areas like city and suburban town centers. Millennials also prefer these areas for the way of life and because it easy not to own a car. The Realtor’s survey found that currently only 12 percent of future homeowners favor houses in the “suburban-fringe” that rely completely on driving. By contrast, the most expensive housing on the market today is found in high-density and pedestrian friendly neighborhoods.
Walkable Infrastructure in Cities

April 15, 2019 - It’s spring home-buying season and thousands of prospective buyers have taken to California’s housing market. Although many factors will influence their purchasing decisions, new data from Trulia indicates that the percentage of Los Angeles homebuyers searching for homes near public transportation is on the rise. According to the company’s data, home listings in Los Angeles that specify public transportation have steadily increased in the last few years. “The share of listings in L.A. including public transit keywords such as ‘metro’ or ‘subway’ has doubled since 2013,” Trulia writes. “These listings are especially common along L.A.’s Metro rail lines, which are the focus of a $120 billion public transit expansion.” Additionally, in all but the most-expensive market segment, homes boasting of nearby transit access are selling for about 4.2% more than their counterparts.

Los Angeles is infamous for its sprawl and car culture. But the city is actively promoting alternatives to private automobiles, and mobility in and around L.A. has changed dramatically in recent years,” Trulia writes. “Santa Monica is actively experimenting with electric scooters in its Shared Mobility Pilot Program, and L.A. taxpayers have pledged $120 billion toward expanding public transit.”
This is how public transportation is transforming California's housing market

Real Estate Trend #3: The Majority of Home Buyers Are Millennials
What More Millennial Home Buyers Means for Sellers
Location. A lot of millennials are looking for homes in 18-hour cities like Nashville, Tennessee, or Austin, Texas, that offer big city life at a more affordable cost of living. If your home is in a walkable area with access to public transit, expect millennials to come knocking at your door.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby asg70 » Tue 07 May 2019, 11:19:44

"the most expensive housing on the market today is found in high-density and pedestrian friendly neighborhoods."

translation = gentrification

"A lot of millennials are looking for homes in 18-hour cities like Nashville, Tennessee, or Austin, Texas, that offer big city life at a more affordable cost of living. If your home is in a walkable area with access to public transit, expect millennials to come knocking at your door."

Yep, expect them to come knocking, if they hit the jackpot.

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Tue 07 May 2019, 12:07:10

Well, gentlefolk, I just defied most of the above "trends".

I sold a 1350 sq ft, so-called "zero lot line" home in California. ZLL is a form of medium density housing in between suburban splendor and multi-unit. Basically it means big house on a tiny lot. Oh yeah, the suburbs are still so popular I made $825,000 profit. Admittedly, the bus stop was 1 mile away, the light rail was 1.5 miles, the CALTRAIN commuter train was 2 miles from my door.

My "downsized" retirement home is a 2750 sq ft "ranch" on a lot that is a comfortable half acre with a wooded back yard, a gourmet kitchen, and is easy walking distance from a wooded park with trails, a largish 400+ acre lake, and all the retail and services amenities an older person needs within 1 mile, and I will pay cash - about half the profit I just made - for the place. Suburban splendor, indeed.

This month, I'm staying in my place on Nantucket. After all, hotels are $100 a day, don't wanna be a spendthrift.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby asg70 » Tue 07 May 2019, 13:11:06

Anyway, back to EV news rather than arguing over new urbanism.

A big source of EV FUD is the lack of fast-charge infrastructure. Then the supercharger network was built out and that FUD shifted over to how non-Tesla automakers were at a disadvantage due to a lack of fast-charge infrastructure. Well, maybe we have dieselgate to thank, but things are changing and there's now proof to show for it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQGsGK-9yRc

https://electrek.co/2019/05/06/electrif ... phone-app/

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Tue 07 May 2019, 13:46:38

asg70 wrote:Anyway, back to EV news rather than arguing over new urbanism.

A big source of EV FUD is the lack of fast-charge infrastructure. Then the supercharger network was built out and that FUD shifted over to how non-Tesla automakers were at a disadvantage due to a lack of fast-charge infrastructure. Well, maybe we have dieselgate to thank, but things are changing and there's now proof to show for it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQGsGK-9yRc

https://electrek.co/2019/05/06/electrif ... phone-app/

No matter how much of such information exists, I see Tesla fanbois in the comment section of Tesla articles claiming Tesla competition will fail since only Tesla has any sign of meaningful charging infrastructure. Meanwhile, if someone points out that ICE's tend to have a huge range advantage, then the rejoinder is it doesn't matter, since everyone charges at home. :roll:

At least the level of nonsense in many posts isn't at all unique to this site.

FWIW, I'm happy to have more charging from the likes of Electrify America, whether VW was forced into building it, or not. More choices -- better for everyone.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Tue 07 May 2019, 19:48:53

I repeat, there is only ONE real problem with EVs. The car buying public is Fat/Dumb/Happy with IICE vehicles. If they could just get over that and start buying EVs, the other problems would go away quickly.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby Plantagenet » Tue 07 May 2019, 23:40:40

KaiserJeep wrote:I repeat, there is only ONE real problem with EVs. The car buying public is Fat/Dumb/Happy with IICE vehicles. If they could just get over that and start buying EVs, the other problems would go away quickly.


There are two other problems with EVs that you aren't considering, KJ. --FIRST, EVs are more expensive then ICE cars.

Image

A car is a big purchase for most folks, and since you can get an ICE car for less then a similar EV, most people will probably buy the cheaper car.

And SECOND, almost all EVs are sedans. Americans don't buy a lot sedans these days. Americans buy SUVs and giant pickups instead of sedans. Somebody who wants an SUV or a pickup truck is't going to buy an EV sedan.

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby eclipse » Wed 08 May 2019, 01:41:35

Hi Plant,
I notice you still assume people will be buying cars as if that is an indefinite matter? Have you read the stuff on automation and how that could impact the car industry? Robot-EV's are expensive to buy, but could be REALLY cheap to hire if we share that capital cost amongst the community. They could be so cheap to hire that many people simply stop buying cars. And many companies will have a variety of vehicles you can hire.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby kublikhan » Wed 08 May 2019, 04:48:13

KaiserJeep wrote:I repeat, there is only ONE real problem with EVs. The car buying public is Fat/Dumb/Happy with IICE vehicles. If they could just get over that and start buying EVs, the other problems would go away quickly.
EVs come up short against ICE vehicles in a number of categories: price, range, refueling options, marketing budgets, dealer satisfaction, etc. It is short sighted to ignore all these issues and blame the consumer for being dumb because they did not purchase an EV.

By a margin, the largest reason that consumers have avoided purchasing an electric car is range anxiety. That is, 58 percent of drivers are afraid that they will run out of power before being able to charge their vehicle, while another 49 percent fear the low availability of charging stations. Overall, 61 percent of those surveyed said that they would be more inclined to purchase an EV if there were more charging stations. Faster charging could also convince more drivers to switch. Thirty-eight percent of EV owners surveyed reportedly feel that charging their vehicle takes longer than they anticipated, while nearly half (48 percent) said that they would pay more to charge in half the time it currently takes them.

The upfront cost of electrified vehicles have also put off consumers looking to purchase a new car. Buying a vehicle with any form of electrification generally tends to be more expensive. As an example, consumers looking at purchasing the lowest-cost Tesla Model 3 will find themselves paying $42,900 out of pocket, nearly 19 percent higher the national average of a new car in the United States hovers at $36,115. "It's just like people literally don't have the money to buy the car," commented Tesla CEO Elon Musk on the cost of the company's most affordable sedan, the Model 3, during a quarterly earnings call. "It's got nothing to do with desire. They just don't have enough money in their bank account. If the car can be made more affordable, the demand is extraordinary."

Of course, finance is also a huge player when making any purchase. More than half (57 percent) of consumers said that they would be more likely to purchase an EV if it were the same price as a traditional vehicle.


The record of the dealers and car companies in selling these vehicles is poor as well:

Experts and advocates have consistently found dealers and manufacturers putting as little effort as possible into selling electric cars. In 2016, the Sierra Club sent volunteers to more than 300 dealerships around the country to record their experience shopping for an electric vehicle. The results were dismaying, to say the least. More than one in five Ford and Chevy dealers had failed to charge an EV so it could be taken for a test drive. Only around half of salespeople explained how to fuel a plug-in vehicle, and only a third discussed the tax credits available to buyers.

Many volunteers described dealers who were woefully incompetent or, in some cases, openly hostile to EVs. “Senior sales staff had no idea what the battery electric vehicles’ range was. He called it a go-cart,” said a volunteer in New York. “There were no EVs in stock and [the dealer] stated that he has no interest in ever selling an electric vehicle,” said another in Maine. “I couldn’t do a test drive because the key was lost. I was encouraged to purchase a non-electric vehicle instead,” said another in Connecticut. If dealers are reluctant to sell EVs, that has an impact on consumers. Studies show that drivers are more likely to buy an electric car after they take one for a spin.

Dealers may be reluctant to sell EVs because, like most Americans, they don’t know much about them. “A lot of our salesmen are not familiar with electric vehicles themselves, and so rather than try to sell people something they don’t know or don’t feel comfortable with, they’re trying to sell them something else.” A 2014 study found that drivers shopping for an EV were much less satisfied with their experience than those who were shopping for a conventional car.

Researchers further explained that EVs need less maintenance than conventional cars, which puts a dent in the dealer’s bottom line. “I got my [BMW] i3 in April of last year, so I have had it for a year and a half, let’s say, and I’m not due for my first maintenance until January,” Greene said, explaining that because EVs generate so little money after they are sold, salespeople are less inclined to move them off the lot. “Dealerships make a very large fraction, if not most of their money from maintenance and repairs”

It’s not just dealers who are failing to sell EVs. Manufacturers spend appallingly little on marketing plug-in cars. A study commissioned by the Northeast States for Coordinated Air Use Management found that U.S. automakers are investing next to nothing on advertising electric cars such as the Ford C-Max Energi and Chevy Bolt. In 2017, manufacturers spent roughly an order of magnitude more nationally marketing SUVs and trucks, like the Chevy Silverado and Ford F-150. “Here in Tennessee, you will rarely see an electric car advertisement on television,” Greene said. “They just don’t get advertised the way other vehicles get advertised.”
ARE CAR DEALERS TO BLAME FOR LAGGING EV SALES?

So let's recap the actual reasons cited for poor EV sales:
1. EVs are more expensive
2. EVs have poorer range
3. EVs have less refueling locations
4. EVs take longer to refuel
5. EVs have marketing budgets an order of magnitude smaller than ICE vehicles
6. EVs have incompetent and/or openly hostile dealers selling them

When you look at all these issues, is it really any wonder ICE vehicles are outselling EVs?
The oil barrel is half-full.
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kublikhan
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby asg70 » Wed 08 May 2019, 08:11:33

Plantagenet wrote:There are two other problems with EVs that you aren't considering


Both of which are being addressed. Probably the cheapest EV in SUV form-factor is the Niro (the Kona is more of a subcompact in SUV cladding like the Bolt). Given the limited quanties of Hyundai/Kia I think the first truly mass-produced car that will probably be both cheap and in SUV form will be the ID Crozz. It's not vaporware and it's not as far away as you might think. Looks like it's going to be built in TN.

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-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby asg70 » Wed 08 May 2019, 08:18:40

kublikhan wrote:6. EVs have incompetent and/or openly hostile dealers selling them


I can only speak for myself but a massive ICE gear-head sold me my Kona electric and he didn't attempt to put a negative spin on the car or try to steer me towards an ICE. He had already sold the previous one after being in the showroom for only 2 days. So from his perspective it's just another commission. They are not keeping these cars buried in the back. It was right in the middle of the showroom floor.

I think most of the anti-sell is coming from GM and Nissan and a big part of that is that its EVs just aren't that appealing. The Volt sort of was early on but the Bolt is homely and the original Leaf was even worse. Make a decent car and dealers will embrace it.

HALL OF SHAME:
-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
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