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Saudi Aramco IPO

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Re: Saudi Aramco IPO

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Fri 12 Apr 2019, 09:58:50

Look---I'll help you out. Check out this glossary of common acronyms used in the oil biz.


Not sure where the author of this "glossary" gets his terms from as no source for the definition is provided. It is not an acronym widely used in the oil industry as you no doubt know since this is the only "glossary" that has it. The Schlumberger Oilfield Glossary which is the industry go to for all acronyms commonly used does not contain it and that glossary has been continually updated for the last twenty years. MSC is an acronym used all over the place, here is a link with 202 uses https://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/MSC

Irrespective let me remind you that the prospectus does not define what the acronym MSC means in its expanded form other than to define it in their definitions section as:

The average maximum number of barrels per day of crude oil that can be produced for one year during any future planning period, after taking into account all planned capital expenditures and maintenance, repair and operating costs, and after being given three months to make operational adjustments.


that is the definition...what the letters stand for is immaterial given we know what they mean ...they defined it.

As to the rest of your blather let me also remind you that you claimed it was MPC....what the frig does that mean? Please find us where that acronym is used in the prospectus or better yet find where it is used in the oil and gas industry other than to describe Marathon Petroleum Corporation. Not sure why you appear to be so smug here when it is clear you have never read the prospectus. :roll:
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Re: Saudi Aramco IPO

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 12 Apr 2019, 16:09:09

MSC is an acronym used all over the place, here is a link with 202 uses https://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/MSC


Now you're being silly. Citing totally unrelated acroynms that have nothing to do with the oil biz is intellectually dishonest and a total waste of time.

Why not just face facts? The acronym MSC in the oil biz refers to the MAXIMUM SUSTAINABLE CAPACITY of oilfields. This term has been in usage for decades in the oil biz. For instance, check out the definition given by the Oil and Gas Dictionary

maximum+sustainable+capacity

Do you get it now?

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Re: Saudi Aramco IPO

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Fri 12 Apr 2019, 17:39:39

Why not just face facts? The acronym MSC in the oil biz refers to the MAXIMUM SUSTAINABLE CAPACITY of oilfields. This term has been in usage for decades in the oil biz. For instance, check out the definition given by the Oil and Gas Dictionar


I know what maximum sustainable capacity means, please show where in that dictionary it uses the acronym MSC? It doesn't.

Which is why I said it doesn't frigging matter what MSC stands for as Aramco defines precisely what it means under the terms used. It could stand for virtually anything in terms of words but the definition is the definition in terms of this agreement. That is the way legal documents work...when something is defined in the terms portion that definition holds throughout the document. The following from the prospectus.

MSC - The average maximum number of barrels per day of crude oil that can be produced for one year during any future planning period, after taking into account all planned capital expenditures and maintenance, repair and operating costs, and after being given three months to make operational adjustments.


I'm still waiting to see where it states MPC somewhere in that document. You want to get to talk about pointing to unrelated acronyms?
Pot meet Kettle. :roll:
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Re: Saudi Aramco IPO

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 12 Apr 2019, 18:12:33

, please show where in that dictionary it uses the acronym MSC? It doesn't.


Jeez you are slow. We are making progress though--- you seem to have given up on your dumb idea that MSC stands for maximum spare capacity.

I'll try once again and see if you can get it this time.

1. Acronyms are abbreviations. They are formed by taking the first letter of each word in a set of words that is being abbreviated.

2. The acronym MSC used in the Aramco releases concerning the oil production capability of Ghawar and other Saudi oilfields stands for Maximum Sustainable Capacity, which is defined in the dictionary of oil and gas which I linked to in my last post. The first letter of Maximum is M---the first letter of Sustainable is S and the first letter of Capacity is C, so the acronym for Maximum Sustainable Capacity is MSC.

3. Do you get it now? :lol: :P :roll: :razz: :-D

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Re: Saudi Aramco IPO

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Fri 12 Apr 2019, 19:27:29

2. The acronym MSC used in the Aramco releases concerning the oil production capability of Ghawar and other Saudi oilfields stands for Maximum Sustainable Capacity, which is defined in the dictionary of oil and gas which I linked to in my last post. The first letter of Maximum is M---the first letter of Sustainable is S and the first letter of Capacity is C, so the acronym for Maximum Sustainable Capacity is MSC.


does it say that in the Prospectus? If so where? Let me make it simple for you it does not.

They define MSC as

MSC - The average maximum number of barrels per day of crude oil that can be produced for one year during any future planning period, after taking into account all planned capital expenditures and maintenance, repair and operating costs, and after being given three months to make operational adjustments.

that definition doesn't match yours of maximum sustainable capacity and here again the questions you keep dodging:

1. where in your "dictionary" does it say maximum sustainable capacity is denoted by MSC? It doesn't. That's the simple answer.
2. where in the prospectus do they even mention an acronym MPC which you claimed they did? It doesn't. That's the simple answer.

OK. And because you are a bit slow when it comes to contract language apparently....when they define a term which they did in the prospectus that is precisely what they mean and what it means. Did they say maximum sustainable capacity? No they did not. Did they mean that? Who knows given this is not a common acronym in the industry. And in fact it doesn't matter because they define it. But if you can find somewhere a definition matching exactly what Aramco uses in the prospectus and uses that acronym, well then more power to you.

and the final question:
3. WTF does it matter what the initials MSC stand for? They define the term and that is all that matters.

you are making assumptions that are unwarranted at the same time as trying to steer the conversation away from your original claim about something called "MPC".

Give it a break. You are merely making yourself look more foolish with each post.
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Re: Saudi Aramco IPO

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sat 13 Apr 2019, 11:18:10

MSC - The average maximum number of barrels per day of crude oil that can be produced for one year during any future planning period, after taking into account all planned capital expenditures and maintenance, repair and operating costs, and after being given three months to make operational adjustments.


Now you've got it. Finally.

I see you've abandoned your idiotic claim that MSC in the prospectus was an acronym for "maximum spare capacity."

Its about time. I had only had to explain it to you eight times before you got it. :lol: :-D :roll: :) :mrgreen:

SHEESH!

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Re: Saudi Aramco IPO

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Sat 13 Apr 2019, 12:22:00

Now you've got it. Finally.


Really? That definition doesn't say "maximum sustainable capacity" anywhere does it? How do you suddenly think this supports your argument? Give your head a shake.

I see you've abandoned your idiotic claim that MSC in the prospectus was an acronym for "maximum spare capacity."


well that's a good one coming from the moron who claimed it is "MPC". Once again show us where that acronym appears in the prospectus. Lets go back to what you wrote

Here's an interesting take on the new MPC estimate of 3.5 million barrels/day of oil production for Ghawar, from a story reposted on the PeakOil.com news page:

ghawar-nightmare

This person is claiming that the new D & M review of the MPC for Ghawar and other Saudi oilfields isn't actually an estimate of the current MPC for Ghawar and the other Saudi Oilfields, but instead is an estimate of the average MPC over the next 50 years.

In this case the numbers in the D & M report would just be the results of numerical model runs rather then actually being the current MPC numbers that the D & M report says they are.

It really amazes me when people don't understand what they read. I see this so often. Many people see what they want to see---their wires are crossed somehow so they don't understand what the words they are reading actually say.

The D & M report clearly states the MPC numbers for Ghawar are the best estimate of the current actual number, reflecting the current actual condition of the oilfield. Its clearly not a number from a numerical model projecting production five decades into the future because the D & M report never says that.

Its D & M's best estimate of the current MPC for Ghawar.

And its interesting that its more than 20% lower then MPC estimates for Ghawar made just a few years ago.

The D & M independent review therefore implies that production at Ghawar has now fallen significantly from its peak.

How hard is that to understand? Just take an honest look at the data.


Besides referencing an acronym that doesn't exist you also showed your ignorance of how any of this is done. Degolyer and Macnaughton have nothing to do with MSC...they don't designate it and they do not calculate it. What they do is look at the reserves for each field and report on that. The only place that production levels come into play in their analysis is when they calculate an NPV for the field reserves and that is based on production values given to them. If you bothered to read the prospectus or the excerpts I have posted here you would realize it is the government of SA that sets the level of MSC for Aramco and Aramco then decides how to distribute the MSC around amongst their fields keeping in mind they want to maximize recovery and take advantage of changing demand for various oil grades.
It might help if you actually read the prospectus before you beak off about someone else's understanding of it. :roll:
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Re: Saudi Aramco IPO

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sat 13 Apr 2019, 12:26:30

Give your head a shake.


Bonk your head into a table.

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Re: Saudi Aramco IPO

Unread postby Plantagenet » Mon 02 Sep 2019, 11:13:18

The much delayed Saudi Aramco IPO is showing signs of life again. There is interest from the London, New York, and other major western bourses. BUT, Saudi Aramco is now considering not listing its IPO in New York or London at all, but instead may list it through an Asian stock exchange.

aramco-ipo-could-be-heading-to-asia

Listing the Saudi Armco on the Indian, Japanese or Chinese stock exchange would have certain advantages for the Saudis. They have deep and long standing financial deals already with Asian investors, including the Bank of China. There are many wealthy investors in Asia would are interesting in buying shares of the IPO. AND, the disclosure requirements for financial transparency for an IPO listing done in India or China are much less stringent then if the IPO was done in New York or London.

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Re: Saudi Aramco IPO

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Mon 02 Sep 2019, 11:38:40

Listing the Saudi Armco on the Indian, Japanese or Chinese stock exchange would have certain advantages for the Saudis. They have deep and long standing financial deals already with Asian investors, including the Bank of China. There are many wealthy investors in Asia would are interesting in buying shares of the IPO. AND, the disclosure requirements for financial transparency for an IPO listing done in India or China are much less stringent then if the IPO was done in New York or London.


Not sure what you are inferring here. Aramco already made full disclosure when they went to the bond market earlier this year. All the information that normally would have been disclosed in an IPO executed on the NYSE , LSE etc is already out there so I don't think they would be worried. And Aramco is talking about listing on the Tokyo Stock Exchange which is the third-largest stock exchange in the world and has rules around statutory disclosure as well as timely disclosure. These rules pretty much cover everything that is referred to in the NYSE or TSX rules regarding continuous disclosure. All quarterly and annual financial reports, reports on internal control (much like the management discussion to shareholders common on the NYSE or TSX) are required by law. As to the IPO listing, they have to release the full prospectus which will show reserve value etc much like the Bond Prospectus did earlier this year. Avoiding the NYSE and NASDAQ (the two largest exchanges) helps Aramco avoid third party lawsuits from special interest groups while listing on Tokyo (TSE) provides a large market and sufficient liquidity.
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Re: Saudi Aramco IPO

Unread postby Plantagenet » Mon 02 Sep 2019, 11:48:50

Plantagenet wrote:Listing the Saudi Armco on the Indian, Japanese or Chinese stock exchange would have certain advantages for the Saudis. They have deep and long standing financial deals already with Asian investors, including the Bank of China. There are many wealthy investors in Asia would are interesting in buying shares of the IPO. AND, the disclosure requirements for financial transparency for an IPO listing done in India or China are much less stringent then if the IPO was done in New York or London.


Not sure what you are inferring here.


No inference needed. There is additional information about this in the news article in the link in my post, including more on the nature of the Saudi concerns over transparency and disclosure requirements to do a listing in New York or London.

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Re: Saudi Aramco IPO

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Tue 03 Sep 2019, 10:49:44

this article indicates the decision to avoid LSE and NYSE was due to political uncertainties (Brexit and China) which makes sense given they have already disclosed reserves and finances and Tokoyo will require what is in effect continuous disclosure.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/30/saudi-aramco-ipo-oil-firm-reportedly-favors-tokyo-over-london-hong-kong.html

Saudi Aramco is considering Tokyo — instead of early favorites London and Hong Kong — as the international destination to list its shares, The Wall Street Journal reported on Thursday.

The initial public offering of Saudi Arabia’s state oil giant’s shares will take place over two stages: A flotation on the Saudi stock exchange later this year, followed by an international listing in 2020 or 2021, the Journal reported, citing advisors and officials familiar with the plans.


Many stock exchanges around the world have courted Aramco to list on their markets, with London and Hong Kong widely considered the front-runners to clinch the deal. But political uncertainties facing the two cities — arising from Brexit, the U.K.’s impending departure from the European Union, as well as prolonged protests in Hong Kong — have diminished their attractiveness, the report said.
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Re: Saudi Aramco IPO

Unread postby StarvingLion » Tue 03 Sep 2019, 11:25:33

I guess they aren't interested in the UK's new "currency" from Mark Conartistey:

Facebook bits

Thats where a bunch of shitheads wear VR goggles and see food everywhere but their stomachs growl like crazy.

Cog and rockdoc think its great.
Cog's brain was in a jar left open and maggots ate it.
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Re: Saudi Aramco IPO

Unread postby Plantagenet » Mon 09 Sep 2019, 16:49:51

Prince Muhammad and his brother are reportedly in "discussions" with wealthy families in Saudi Arabia to get them to invest in the upcoming (?) Saudi Aramco IPO. Some analysts see this as a "shakedown," since the last time Prince Muhammad wanted money from Saudi Billionaires, he imprisoned them and tortured them until they paid up. The Prince has to believe that he won't have to torture them again to extract more money.

saudi-shakedown-kingdom-asks-countrys-billionaires-be-anchor-investors-aramco

This time the shakedown is more subtle.....Prince Muhammad is reportedly trying to get them to pony up to be "anchor investors" in the upcoming Aramco IPO. Anchor investors normally buy some shares of an IPO a day before it issues publicly, to demonstrate that there is a demand for the shares. But supposedly there is already great demand for shares of an Aramco IPO, so there shouldn't be a need for anchor investors, especially when the IPO isn't even scheduled yet and most likely won't happen for years.

This is just another curious and odd event in the long history of this long delayed IPO.

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Saudi Aramco IPO

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 09 Oct 2019, 19:08:49

Saudi Aramco is reportedly going to release the prospectus for its IPO by the end of October

aramco-ipo-prospectus-expected-to-be-filed-by-end-of-the-month

Things get discussed and debated at Peak Oil for years, and its rare that someone is proved to be completely right in everything they said. However this is such a time, and I want to take a victory lap here and now to celebrate the absolute correctness of everything I've posted about on this topic. For years I've maintained that the Saudi Aramco IPO would never get done in New York or London or any other major global exchange because the Saudis wouldn't be willing to go through the public disclosure process that is required.

And today I'm proven to be absolutely correct. The Saudis have now officially given up on their plans to do their IPO in New York or on any other American stock exchange. They aren't going to list in London or Paris either No.....the prospectus for the Saudi IPO says that they will be listed on the Tadawul Exchange.

The what?????

The Tadawul Exchange. Its the local Saudi Arabian stock exchange. Needless to say, no extensive public disclosure will be required.

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Re: Saudi Aramco IPO

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Wed 09 Oct 2019, 23:04:04

However this is such a time, and I want to take a victory lap here and now to celebrate the absolute correctness of everything I've posted about on this topic. For years I've maintained that the Saudi Aramco IPO would never get done in New York or London or any other major global exchange because the Saudis wouldn't be willing to go through the public disclosure process that is required.


Ridiculous given Aramco already disclosed everything (reserves and financial records for past 3 years) that would be required in an IPO through their debt issue, or did you conveniently forget that?

And today I'm proven to be absolutely correct. The Saudis have now officially given up on their plans to do their IPO in New York or on any other American stock exchange. They aren't going to list in London or Paris either No.....the prospectus for the Saudi IPO says that they will be listed on the Tadawul Exchange.


They have said the initial listing will be on the Saudi exchange. They have been saying that for nearly a year now so not sure why you are surprised by it. It is the next listing that is still in question 9 (there isn't nearly enough liquidity on the Saudi exchange for them to simply list just there) and they have been talking about Japan as of late. London, New York, Japan and Hong Kong were all exchanges they have mentioned previously and months ago they suggested New York wouldn't work because of the potential legal consequences with regards to potential class-action lawsuits as a result of 911. They recently said Hong Kong would probably not work because of the unrest and trade war and London was excluded due to Brexit. If they choose to list on the Tokoyo Stock Exchange it is the third-largest in the world and has all of the continuous disclosure requirements of all the other exchanges.

So 1. they always planned to start with a listing on the Saudi exchange and have talked about that almost since day 1.
2. the reason the US doesn't work for them is the fear of being pulled into a class-action lawsuit related to 911 claims (they have said this on numerous occasions)
3. they have already disclosed everything that would be required in an IPO anywhere in the world through the debt offering
and 4. the next listing which may be on Tokyo (according to Aramco) would require all the on-going disclosure that NYSE or LSE would.

You seem to have a selective memory on all of this.
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Re: Saudi Aramco IPO

Unread postby EdwinSm » Sun 03 Nov 2019, 07:34:50

Soon and very soon, but only on the Saudi Arabia exchange

Saudi Aramco has confirmed it is planning to list on the Riyadh stock exchange, in what could be the world's biggest initial public offering (IPO).

The state-owned oil giant will determine the IPO launch price after registering interest from investors.

Business sources say the Saudis are expected to make shares available for 1% or 2% of the firm, and the offer will be for existing company shares.


On the possibly negative side
Another wrinkle in the crown prince's plan is the surge in anti-fossil fuel sentiment around the world, plus the comparatively low oil price compared to late last year, where prices were above $80.

"The listing could be controversial because it's a massive fossil fuel listing in a time investors are becoming increasingly ethical," said Mr Hunter.

"There are a lot of new and existing funds looking to divest from fossil fuel assets."


We will have to see how this goes.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-50070823
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Re: Saudi Aramco IPO

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Sun 03 Nov 2019, 09:49:21

According to Aramco the prospectus is out on November 9, pricing begins November 17 with final price set on Dec 4 (after the book-building period) and shares begin trading on December 11. I suspect it will be fully subscribed amongst banks and insiders.

They are offering 1 - 2% of the company shares (the local exchange doesn't have enough liquidity to do much more) which will leave 3-4% of the total 5% they originally planned to sell. Likely they will gage the response to this sale and then look to Hong Kong or Japan index for additional listing.
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Re: Saudi Aramco IPO

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sun 03 Nov 2019, 11:52:24

EdwinSm wrote:Soon and very soon, but only on the Saudi Arabia exchange....We will have to see how this goes.


What a come down after all the hype about doing the IPO in New York or London.

Now its going to be a very very large IPO on a very very small stock exchange. :lol: :-D :razz:

Some investors may be concerned about these unusual arrangements, but I'm sure Prince Muhammad will do his best to put potential investors at ease.

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Re: Saudi Aramco IPO

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Sun 03 Nov 2019, 12:49:14

What a come down after all the hype about doing the IPO in New York or London.

Now its going to be a very very large IPO on a very very small stock exchange. :lol: :-D :razz:


what point made by Aramco and the Saudi oil minister did you miss? Apparently the one about this is the first step and they will consider when to do the International listing as the local listing pans out.

simple math....they have said all along they would sell 5%. The Saudi listing is for 1-2% which leaves 3-4% for listing on an international exchange when it makes sense.

If this sells out prior to first trade and the price runs up it is almost a guaranty they will followup with an International listing. This initial step lets them determine the amount of demand there is which is a prudent move.

from CNBC today:

Also at the press conference, Aramco’s Chairman Yasser al-Rumayyan said the international listing would be decided on “going forward.” He also said he could not comment on the valuation of the company, or the percentage to list.

Previous reports have suggested the kingdom will list 1% to 2% of Aramco on its local stock exchange, and then list another slice on an international exchange at a later date — with a total public sale of roughly 5% of the company. Exchanges in New York, London, Hong Kong and Tokyo have all been vying for the international listing.
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