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Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 26 Nov 2018, 20:21:24

Ghung,
I think that is Sea Shepard founders Watson’s belief also.

I’m out of date but my most recent knowledge was that Sea Shepard had given up on the Jamal was whalers because the government was suooortjng them with surrvielance data, tracking Sea Shepard, so they could be avoided.

Sea Shepard has also been active in fighting “rouge” fishing vessels that target endangered species. They have been responsible for several ships being “retired” (scuttled).

I can’t speak as to why they leave the Norwegians alone. Didn’t know about that.

They are an odd group who have no overt financial support/ lfubd raising operation. Supposedly 100% of their operating funds come from voluntary donations. Probably just another way to get at the money. But Watson does seem to be something of a purist. An origional founder of the Sierra Club (I think) who left/kicked out when he accused them of pandering and fraud. They have removed him from their list of founders so I suspect he is doing something right. Even if you disagree with his principals he seems to have them.

Anyway, it seems the a Chinese are grossly over fishing the oceans and lying about their catch, greatly exceeding quotas. Not good. Not for them, not for us, not for anyone.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Tanada » Mon 26 Nov 2018, 22:12:58

GHung wrote:My main issue with hunting and eating Cetaceans is that I consider them to be highly intelligent and sapient creatures, perhaps more sapient than humans. Seems almost like cannibalism.


I used to buy into that theory as well, but upon reflection I don't see much evidence to support the claims. The thing is for example an African Elephant has a brain that masses well over twice that of the human brain, however despite that vast size it has around one third of the neuron connections that a human brain has. IOW despite being over twice as large it has about one third of the 'computational capacity' divided up over that larger mass.

It isn't just how physically large a brain is that matters, the complexity of the connections between the neurons is what allows brain matter to function in more complex ways.

Here are a few mammal brain to body mass ratios, you can love or hate what they imply but the reality is the larger a physical body is the larger the brain must be simply to operate the structure of that body. A Sperm Whale has a massive brain, but compared to its body mass it is a quarter the size of a random cow in a pasture in comparative size. Maybe a Bottlenose Dolphin is half as smart as the average human, but that would place their IQ around 50 and they lack manipulative extremities which would allow them to build anything. All they can do is swim and hunt fish, hardly an intellectually stimulating way of life. Give them arms and hands to manipulate their environment and perhaps they would weave fishing nets and prove to be quite smart, but the reality doesn't allow such a test. Sure people can teach dolphins and seals and killer whales to preform stunts for audiences, but you can also do that with dogs and their average brain size matches up with a walnut so its not a very convincing argument.

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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby dissident » Tue 27 Nov 2018, 00:21:34

Consuming mostly carbohydrates is a bizarre diet. The so-called vegetarian cattle and sheep actually do not consume carbohydrates. They let the bacteria in their ruminant stomachs consume the carbs and produce fatty acids. So these "vegetarian" animals are actually living off fatty acids. Telling humans to eat the mythical vegetarian diet shows no understanding and no consideration for health. It is a vapid, ideologically contrived diet plan.

As has been pointed out, cattle can be raised on land that does not support grain or vegetable agriculture. If some zealot is going to invoke CH4, well, then let's play. The amount of CH4 emitted by rice paddies is enormous. The IPCC estimated it to be 60 Tg/year which is about the same as all livestock (i.e. 15% of the global total anthropogenic CH4 emissions). And O am ignoring the contribution of biomass decomposition from the rest of agriculture.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby dohboi » Tue 27 Nov 2018, 00:33:30

Dis, you seem to have diverged from your usually very scientific approach here, and not really responded to my main point above. '...mythical vegetarian diet..." wtf?? All to protect your sense of righteousness in eating your precious burgers?? Very strange. But the kind of thing I've come to expect from many knee-jerk meat addicts, here and elsewhere. (And, by the way, there are many ways to be vegan without ever eating any rice, but nice attempt at cherry picking. :) )

Others seem to have gone even further off topic, but still a mostly interesting conversation...thanks.

Again, I see no evidence that the definition of 'meat' used in the study above was any other than the most basic definition 'flesh of any animal' including mammals and fish (as well as marine mammals).

Does anyone dispute may basic point that, since the agricultural revolution, at least, most people have been eating mostly vegan diets most of the time throughout most of history...?
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Ibon » Tue 27 Nov 2018, 02:05:19

https://youtu.be/aohXOpKtns0

Not unrelated... check out the link of some old footage of 1911 manhatten. Notice not a single obese person on the streets.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Tanada » Tue 27 Nov 2018, 14:58:56

dohboi wrote:Does anyone dispute may basic point that, since the agricultural revolution, at least, most people have been eating mostly vegan diets most of the time throughout most of history...?


Yes I would dispute that given that the East Asian population domesticated both ducks and chickens for meat and egg production and include animal products in most meals it is an odd claim to say 'mostly vegan'. Back when I was young Vegetarian generally meant you did not eat 'red meat' but milk, eggs and fish were all part of the balanced vegetarian diet. As time marched on Vegetarian went from those 'loose' standards to 'strict vegetarian' where marine life was eliminated from the diet and then went even stricter with 'vegan' diets that eliminated all animals products including eggs and dairy.

As a rule of thumb 'meat' is generally taken to mean red meat from livestock or hunting, poultry is a separate category and all marine animal life is lumped together whether they be shellfish, scaled fish, or any other variety. In modern parlance Americans and Europeans seem to classify marine mammals as a third marine category but but this practice is far from universal, the majority of the 7.5 billion humans wandering around do not make that distinction.

There are a rare few cultures that practice forms of vegetarianism, but on the large scale I do not know of any culture that follows the 'vegan' no animal products permitted standard you seem to be implying is common around the world. In Sub-Saharan Africa 'bush meat' or fish are used in place of livestock when their is a short supply, in the Middle east and North Africa where Islam dominated beef, goats and sheep are all consumed in abundance. In east Asia Pork, Duck and Chicken are preferred protein sources along with the aforementioned fish and marine mammals. In Australia Beef and Mutton are fondly consumed, and the prior population and its descendants still hunt wild game for protein.

India with its large population of Hindu believers comes closest to your claims but even there version of vegetarianism encourages the consumption of milk products and a large number of Hindu believers only avoid Beef and Pork while consuming other sources of meat.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby asg70 » Tue 27 Nov 2018, 16:48:17

"Seems less American are less willing to sacrifice good health and good taste for the vegetarian myth."

Nice double-negative smarty-pants.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby dohboi » Tue 27 Nov 2018, 22:57:44

" include animal products in most meals"
!!!!!


Wow, so you have witnessed the preparation of the majority of meals by all East Asians over the last 10,000 years, and can now report accurately about them to us today...very, very impressive!!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Are you basing this WAG on your visits to your local Chinese restaurant? You do know that restaurant food from a particular culture is generally not the best indication of what most people from that culture actually eat on a day-to-day basis, right?

But let's say you are correct. If the vast numbers of poor who have made up the vast majorities of the population managed to get a bit of meat flavoring and scraps in their food, I would still categorize that as 'mostly vegan' i.e. very, very little meat, especially by modern Western standards.

Again, I offer data, you offer supposition and your own self-serving definition of meat. The second definition in Meriam Webster (after the historically earlier one of simply 'food' which presumably does not apply here) is " animal tissue considered especially as food." It is reasonable to assume that this study was using this default definition of meat, but yes, it would have been nice if they spelled that out for the Debbie Doubters around here! :-D

I want to make it clear that one of my points is that you don't have to be a 'pure vegan' to make a huge impact. Mostly eating no meat or dairy, or only having relatively tiny amounts in your diet--as this study shows was the norm for most humans up to about 60 years ago--would probably be a sustainable diet for the planet. (But, yes, yes, that would be much easier the fewer people there were on the planet to feed!)

So I am in spirit agreeing with your point that the goal needn't be 'strict' veganism or even 'strict vegetarianism.' But most people on the planet do have to get back to something much closer to the kind of plant-based diet this study shows was the norm not long ago. Those who have any care for the planet and want to go on eating meat, should be the first in line to cheer on vegans and vegetarians of any stripe, for the more there are of them, the more probable it is that some people would still be able to eat something closer to current levels of meat without spiraling the planet (even further) into chaos.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyl ... al-welfare
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Yonnipun » Wed 28 Nov 2018, 05:05:29

Dobhoi, just admit it- agriculture is the most destructive thing ever invented . When the topsoil is gone( within 60 years from now) the game is over no matter are you vegan, vegetarian or carnivore.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby dohboi » Wed 28 Nov 2018, 08:51:29

Try to stay up to date, Y. The main reason for erosion is plowing, and no-till ag has pretty much taken over.

On the other stuff, it strikes me that people might be getting hung up on terminology. If you want to replace 'vegan' and 'near vegan' with 'plant based' and if that will make you happy, knock yourselves out.

"A plant-based diet is a diet based on foods derived from plants, including vegetables, whole grains, nuts, seeds, legumes and fruits, but with few or no animal products."

"As of the early 2000s, it was estimated that four billion people live primarily on a plant-based diet"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant-based_diet

So to rephrase, through most of history and still today, most people in most countries have been living a mostly plant-based diet most of the time.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Tanada » Wed 28 Nov 2018, 10:27:51

dohboi wrote:"A plant-based diet is a diet based on foods derived from plants, including vegetables, whole grains, nuts, seeds, legumes and fruits, but with few or no animal products."

"As of the early 2000s, it was estimated that four billion people live primarily on a plant-based diet"

So to rephrase, through most of history and still today, most people in most countries have been living a mostly plant-based diet most of the time.


How do you define history? Neanderthal Man migrated out of Africa 400,000 ybp and Homo Sapiens Sapiens first appeared in undeniable form at least 120,000 ybp and possible twice that long ago.

Because Earth today is grossly overpopulated in some places and this restricts animal sourced protein in those places doesn't make that situation a historical fact, it makes it an overpopulation anomaly. The last 200 years since we passed a billion human beings is a tiny tiny blip on that 120,000 year existence of our species, not a normal condition. Taking the broader view that it all comes from Agricultural crop growing only gains you back to say 12,000 ybp by being extraordinarily generous with the definition of agriculture and even that most generous standard only gets you to 1% of human existence.

Humans are omnivores and we developed as hunter-gatherer tribes who ate an omnivore diet. You can tell yourself from now unto forever that the world isn't what it is but you will not change the world.

It has been written that with a strict Vegan diet the Earth could house 18 billion humans. Is that your goal then, to double the mass of humanity and add some more on top? Because that goal requires farming every plan-able square meter of land. Personally I would far rather see us around 3 Billion persons eating healthy normal omnivore diets and having lots and lots of land set aside as permanent reserves and parks the former for natural ecosystems and the latter for humans to spend time out in a safer version of nature hiking/camping/hunting/fishing.

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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Yonnipun » Wed 28 Nov 2018, 10:35:36

Try to stay up to date, Y. The main reason for erosion is plowing, and no-till ag has pretty much taken over.


No till will not save from depletion of the topsoil. Eventually the soil becomes depleted and the game is over.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Tanada » Wed 28 Nov 2018, 14:15:08

pstarr wrote:No till is applied only to maize corn. Not the rest of modern agriculture.


In Ohio where it is applied it is used on Maize, Soybeans and Wheat/Rye at a minimum. Those are the main crops here and not all farmers use no-till as it requires lots of petrochemicals being applied.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby farmlad » Thu 29 Nov 2018, 23:51:09

Tanada Most of the worlds agricultural land is pastures which are usually no till and do not require petrochemical applications. The saying, penny rich and pound poor could apply here.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby dohboi » Sun 16 Dec 2018, 12:57:14

Thanks to SH at asif for these facts, links and thoughts:

... The more effective you are at drilling down into the data, the closer you can get to identifying root cause and when you eliminate a root cause, you discover that you can improve multiple problems simultaneously.

This approach can be remarkably simple and clear as the data reveals itself. Fortunately, there is no lack of data that can be used to identify problems and root causes and fashion solutions. Here are some data that serves to reveal a solution.


• 50% of the world's habitable land has been converted to agriculture.
• 33% of agricultural land worldwide is used solely for livestock feed production.
• Agriculture is responsible for a staggering 80 percent of deforestation.
• Worldwide, forests serve as the habitat for over 80 percent of the world’s animals.


http://www.onegreenplanet.org/environme ... struction/

• 60% of land dedicated to agriculture is used for grazing.
• In total, 93% of agricultural land or 47% of all habitable land is dedicated to raising livestock.



http://www.fao.org/docrep/x5304e/x5304e03.htm


• 31% or 9.9 billion acres of the earth's land surface are covered by forest.
4.7 billion acres have been lost since the advent of industrialization.
• 18 million acres of forest are lost worldwide each year
.


http://www.earth-policy.org/indicators/C56/forests_2012


• Our current industrial agricultural model is heavily dependent on fossil fuels.

https://www.resilience.org/stories/2005 ... ndent-oil/


• People in the developing world eat 32 kilograms of meat a year on average.
• People in the industrial world eat 80 kilograms.

• Livestock account for an estimated 18 percent of human-caused greenhouse gas emissions, producing 40 percent of the world’s methane and 65 percent of the world’s nitrous oxide.

• An estimated 11 percent of deaths in men and 16 percent of deaths in women could be prevented if people decreased their red meat consumption to the level of the group that ate the least.


This data, easily accessible on the internet, highlights the health crisis that is meat production and consumption. It also vividly drives home the concept of root cause as meat consumption affects the health of our forests, most species, the overall health of the planet and, finally, human health.

If someone were to approach you today and tell you that you could dramatically impact the existential crisis that is climate change by adopting a few simple practices in your kitchen, what would you say or do?
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sun 16 Dec 2018, 15:24:51

Again, you obstinately focus on one topic, ignoring common sense. If we make for healthier diets, or lower impact to the planet diets, we end up packing more people into an already overcrowded environment, one that is already collapsing in many places on the planet purely from human overpopulation. Always and forever more, the problem is too many people and not enough planet. We need to be managing populations lower, not higher.

Advocating and promoting high impact lifestyles is a way to reach global human capacity earlier and therefore do less damage overall, and to hasten the eventual recovery.

Think about it this way: the average meat-eating, liquor-swilling, pot-smoking, etc. American billionaire - such as Donald Trump for example - is better for the planet than your little academic, veggie-consuming, Marxist self.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby dohboi » Tue 18 Dec 2018, 10:11:28

"focus on one topic"

Ummmm, meat eating killing the planet IS the focus of this thread. Everything else is off topic! :)

(Thanks, though, for at least not bringing up yet again your childish space travel fantasies! :) )

But you know there are other, more effective, and more humane ways to limit population than making people sick, right? Do you 'obstinately focus' on that one topic because you savor the idea of making people suffer needlessly?
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Tue 18 Dec 2018, 12:42:47

We discussed this before. Vegan and vegetarian diets lack essential nutrients and these dietary deficiencies result in impacts to physical and mental health. People are natural omnivores, not herbivores. Remember that whole discussion? (Because memory was one of the things adversely impacted.)
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Cog » Tue 18 Dec 2018, 13:21:56

Ever wonder if the person you meet is a vegan? No need to wonder, he will tell you soon enough.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Ibon » Tue 18 Dec 2018, 15:08:11

Labels fuck us up everytime; vegan, vegetarian, carnivore, omnivore, black, white, gay, trans, communist, capitalist, anarchist. etc..ad naseum. Once you have pinned a label there are walls that close in that define you whereby those who aren't in your tribe get locked in as your binary rival. It is so silly how we do this with so many topics.

Regarding this topic let's put aside a moment the label of which dietary tribe you belong to and see if we cant all agree that if we consumed far less animal protein and far less industrialized packaged processed food we and our planet would be far healthier.

Why take the topic beyond this simple truth?

Oh yeah I know why..... we are bored and so fucking uncreative that we derive entertainment from verbal sparring on an internet forum..
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