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Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 09 Apr 2019, 14:56:46

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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby dohboi » Fri 12 Apr 2019, 23:25:34

Not sure how many people can access this--twitter feed of a Monbiot rant/explanation of the situation on BBC last night: https://twitter.com/ElStubio/status/1116627096774701057

also available here: https://forum.arctic-sea-ice.net/index. ... #msg195057
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 12 Apr 2019, 23:33:05

I was able to access it. Yes, basically confirming that Capitalism and the Growth Economy must end period, if we really are serious about doing something.
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby Cog » Sat 13 Apr 2019, 02:11:28

onlooker wrote:I was able to access it. Yes, basically confirming that Capitalism and the Growth Economy must end period, if we really are serious about doing something.


I guess if you prefer being a subject instead of a citizen you might think that way.
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sat 13 Apr 2019, 08:35:09

onlooker wrote:I was able to access it. Yes, basically confirming that Capitalism and the Growth Economy must end period, if we really are serious about doing something.


The problem being, we know of nothing whatsoever that actually works, other than what we have. One can postulate another economic system that functions, that does not mean that it exists or can be made to work.
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 13 Apr 2019, 09:01:28

KaiserJeep wrote:
onlooker wrote:I was able to access it. Yes, basically confirming that Capitalism and the Growth Economy must end period, if we really are serious about doing something.


The problem being, we know of nothing whatsoever that actually works, other than what we have. One can postulate another economic system that functions, that does not mean that it exists or can be made to work.


Interesting logic there KJ. In fact what we have does NOT work. It has resulted in a polluted environmet, over run with people, that is using up resources at an incredible rate while our sucide rate and drug usage are skyrocketing. Does not sound like success to me.

We need to try to find something that works better than what we have.

And I continue to assert we do NOT have ether Capitalisim or democracy or even republicanism. We have Consumerisim to feed an Oligarchy.

Perhaps we should, as a start, try returning to Capitalisim and Republicanisim.
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 13 Apr 2019, 09:03:53

Cog wrote:
onlooker wrote:I was able to access it. Yes, basically confirming that Capitalism and the Growth Economy must end period, if we really are serious about doing something.


I guess if you prefer being a subject instead of a citizen you might think that way.


What the heck are you going on about? You are neither, you are a Consumer Unit, and a pretty ineffective one at that. It’s funny that you rebel against the system in your actions while supporting it in your words. Do you not see your own contradictions?
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby onlooker » Sat 13 Apr 2019, 09:53:35

I agree wholeheartedly with Newf. I think you meant to invert that reply Newf, to Cog. He supports it in his actions while rebelling against it in his words.
I think Kaiser is right though, this modern form of Capitalism that incorporates growth, wanton consumption and money creation, unbridled profit making as its bedrock principles has been TOO successful. It is an anachronism, useful at time when population was not so high or energy so plentiful. It is now a cancer, its success will destroy its host ie Earth as a life sustaining planet and thus itself
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby Ibon » Sat 13 Apr 2019, 10:53:02

onlooker wrote:I agree wholeheartedly with Newf. I think you meant to invert that reply Newf, to Cog. He supports it in his actions while rebelling against it in his words.
I think Kaiser is right though, this modern form of Capitalism that incorporates growth, wanton consumption and money creation, unbridled profit making as its bedrock principles has been TOO successful. It is an anachronism, useful at time when population was not so high or energy so plentiful. It is now a cancer, its success will destroy its host ie Earth as a life sustaining planet and thus itself


I know there is a rule agains double posting and I don't think I ever have but for the sake of thread continuity I will copy what I just wrote on the socialism thread since it is so relevant to this comment

It is the problem with modern humans. 99% of our species past, prior to modern industrial technology, you could find humans with a cultural set of rules that integrated them with more humility in the natural world. Some argue against this premise stating that they just simply hadn't evolved the technology to exploit to the degree that modern industrial humans have.

There is another argument though. Many of our human ancestors had an orientation toward our mother earth which held the water, land, rivers and sky as more sacred elements and thus their use of technology was held within the boundary of this sacredness. And this actually kept these cultures stable and within carrying capacity for a far longer period of time then say modern industrial civilization.

As KJ for example loves to expound on the success of humans he should consider that success can also be defined as the ability to exist for long periods of time in a stable harmonious relationship with our mother earth. In that sense modern industrial civilization is a failure not a success when compared to past human cultures.

No I am not espousing some romantic noble savage premise here. The archaeological evidence speaks for itself.

The voices of these past cultures have been extinguished, replaced with digital garbage.

I look at the sea of Kudzu Apes and I see degraded decadent human beings. We weren't always like this.
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 13 Apr 2019, 11:12:18

onlooker wrote:I agree wholeheartedly with Newf. I think you meant to invert that reply Newf, to Cog. He supports it in his actions while rebelling against it in his words.
I think Kaiser is right though, this modern form of Capitalism that incorporates growth, wanton consumption and money creation, unbridled profit making as its bedrock principles has been TOO successful. It is an anachronism, useful at time when population was not so high or energy so plentiful. It is now a cancer, its success will destroy its host ie Earth as a life sustaining planet and thus itself


Onlooker,

I did not invert it. AS I recall Cog reports that he leads a rather minimal lifestyle, frugal, no debt. His action rebel against the Consumer culture that now predominates. And that’s a good thing. Somewhere inside Cog get it that buying useless shit does not make him happier but it does represent a tax of sorts, a very progressive social tax where the proceeds go to the ultra elite. Those are his actions.

In words he is stuck in the propaganda that we are a “free Capitalist culture”. Which is patently untrue.

Somewhere at the heart of Capitalisim is a stingy engineer trying to make things work more efficiently, better. At the heart of Consumerisim is a James Taggert, the quintessential bureaucrat who cares not for efficiency but for the perpetuation of the system. He desires no better product, just more and bigger market share. James Tavgert is a “Swamp Creature” wrapped in an American Flag, propped by advertising and BS.

I keep harping on the difference between Consumerisim and Capitalisim because it is crucial to understanding our path forward.

In fact I would venture to say we are closer to a planned economy now than ever. There may not be a Politbureau but there surely is a ultra influential cabal that is attempting to run things. They own the media. They program your news and views.
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby Cog » Sat 13 Apr 2019, 15:02:19

A capitalist system, which I endorse, allows me to bow out of consumerism, as I have chosen. I do not want the government making that choice for me. Which is why I made the distinction of subject versus citizen.

Please spare me from people who know what is good for me and seek to enforce their vision upon me by force.
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 13 Apr 2019, 16:21:09

Cog wrote:A capitalist system, which I endorse, allows me to bow out of consumerism, as I have chosen. I do not want the government making that choice for me. Which is why I made the distinction of subject versus citizen.

Please spare me from people who know what is good for me and seek to enforce their vision upon me by force.


I’m good with that. I’m advocating other folks step out of Consumerisim as well.
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby onlooker » Sat 13 Apr 2019, 16:45:11

You think that is what people really want.? To step out of consumerism. Look at China and India, they have embraced it. Cog is an example of the modern human emblematic of the Tragedy of the Commons. Each individual empowered to do as they wish. Newf, Cog is a rich world citizen, surrounded by civilization and its energy consuming ways. Restraint on consumerism does not negate the world built around him or his dependence on it.
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby Ibon » Sat 13 Apr 2019, 17:32:42

Newfie wrote:
I keep harping on the difference between Consumerisim and Capitalisim because it is crucial to understanding our path forward.
.


I think this distinction you have been drawing is important actually. The pressures of constraining resources may result in a decoupling of sorts between the culture of consumption and the basic bones of the economic system of capitalism. ?? Yeah, I can imagine....
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sat 13 Apr 2019, 17:48:53

I'll return to my main point, which is that there exists nothing else, no other economic system exists. A man who was ignorant of the primate nature of mankind did his best to describe one, and failed miserably. I speak of Karl Marx, whose elaborate and entirely erroneous economic theories have failed four dozen times or more, killing millions of people.

Yet all of you speak as if we had a selection of systems to choose from. That is not at all true, there is nothing else. In fact, Capitalism is not so much a system as it is a set of primate behaviors shaped by evolution. To even be speaking of "success" or "failure" in this context is meaningless. Mankind is a tribe of apes, more than seven billion strong, doing what apes do. As with all species, success is measured by numbers of individual animals, and the territory they occupy, and the degree to which they dominate their immediate surroundings.

That is how nature works. You can't change the definition of success, not at least without getting a majority of apes to buy into your new definition. Good luck with that, they act as they do because it comes natural, and not because they took lessons in how to make Capitalism a success. Most humans are perfect Capitalists without even knowing what the word means.
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 13 Apr 2019, 18:11:35

onlooker wrote:You think that is what people really want.? To step out of consumerism. Look at China and India, they have embraced it. Cog is an example of the modern human emblematic of the Tragedy of the Commons. Each individual empowered to do as they wish. Newf, Cog is a rich world citizen, surrounded by civilization and its energy consuming ways. Restraint on consumerism does not negate the world built around him or his dependence on it.


Onlooker,

I didn’t say it is what people want. In fact what people want is quite malleable. On some level we all want happiness and health and the apsx of Maslows pyramid. But how we view what that pyramid consists of is shaped by Madison Ave.

We were not always as we are, we have been formed into consumer units. It’s within our power to reform ourselves, to look to where true happiness lies. And that task will like take a fair bit of its own public attitude molding.

And to your last point, we all live in a world created by others. That one or more of us has decided to stand back does not negate that world but it does work to weaken its hold. And there is something of value in that.
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 13 Apr 2019, 18:17:04

Ibon wrote:
Newfie wrote:
I keep harping on the difference between Consumerisim and Capitalisim because it is crucial to understanding our path forward.
.


I think this distinction you have been drawing is important actually. The pressures of constraining resources may result in a decoupling of sorts between the culture of consumption and the basic bones of the economic system of capitalism. ?? Yeah, I can imagine....


Thanks for that. I know I’m pitching a hard sell but I’m convienced I’m into something. It does require taking a different world view.
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 13 Apr 2019, 18:27:57

KJ,

You have completly missed the point. We are not talking about ditching Capitalisim, but returning to it.

Take a look at the USA medical health system. An you really call that “Capitalisim” with a straight face?

Henry Ford knew something of Capitalisim. At one point he required his suppliers to ship in crates specifically designed by Ford, and made of particular woods. Why? Because he reused the packing in his production. Not a wasteful bone in the mans body.

Now compare that with our current situation where it is fashionable to purchase brand new “designer” pre-ripped jeans. Where is the Capitalisim in that? No, someone with a Capitalist streak would require good quality jeans that would serve a long time. It’s is a Consumerist who seeks to flaunt his excess spending power on wasteful trivia. A Capitalist would save the money to pay off his mortgage. A Consumerist rents an apartment.
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sat 13 Apr 2019, 21:33:12

Newfie, I just don't see any point to it. The advertizing firms are selling services that amount to changing the wants and desires of those with disposable income. I never personally bought pre-washed, faded, or ripped jeans, in spite of their best efforts. Those obsessed with "fashion" or "what's in" amuse me. Now my SS piles up until it irritates the wife and she transfers it to savings, because I don't buy much more than food.

But the essence of freedom is that the consumer chooses what he spends on. That is the very heart of Capitalism, where you have a range of products and services to choose from. The vendors of products and services compete for consumer dollars.

I take your point about the medical "industry". It was crafted by insurance providers for maximum profit, which means higher prices - as high as the market can bear in this wealthiest country - by Democrats, via bribes for legislation paid by insurance lobbyists. It never made any pretense of competition, and is no more Capitalist than the slightly less disfunctional medical system it replaced.
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby Yonnipun » Sun 14 Apr 2019, 03:28:26

The trouble with capitalism is that it wants to maximize profits. It is wasteful. For example they build concrete buildings with steel rebar and the useful life of such buildings is 50-100 years. Then you have to demolish the building and start it all over. On the other hand many structures built by ancient Romans around 2,000 years ago are still standing, and some are still in excellent condition. Same thing with almost anything. That is why I myself buy only quality tools that could last a lifetime. Most people on the other hand only look the price and buy crap.
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