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Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby Pops » Fri 05 Apr 2019, 18:30:44

KaiserJeep wrote:The thread topic here is ridiculous in any case.

Capitalism is the only form of economy that ever worked anywhere at any time. To propose to end it and replace it with something that has never worked anywhere at any time is a non-starter of an idea.

Naw, history goes back more than 50 years.

There have been a lot of -isms that lasted hundreds of years. Capital is just yesterday's' excess labor—capitalism didn't even get started until industrialisation and cheap energy allowed specialization and productivity increases to the point that it was easy to skim a little excess labor off the top...

The US is not some market economy stronghold, there is no pure market economy outside of maybe Somalia. All functioning governments exert more or less influence over their economy. The US is a mixed economy, part market, part command; more free market than some less than others, it's all right there in the constitution.

But yeah the article in the OP says
We need to fundamentally re-evaluate our relationship to ownership, work and capital.

...but never gets around to how that will end climate change.

A mixed economy is probably the only viable system in an industrial world. It can be as darwinian as its citizens allow or as socialist. Markets are most efficient but without government intervention there is no viable way of limiting the transfer of costs to society, like pollution. Don't you remember when you couldn't see across the bay—or even wanted to see the bay? Do you think capitalism fixed that?

--
In an entirely different argument, completely aside from CC, "productivity" is on it's way to infinity because ever fewer humans are required for a given level of production. At some point the welfare state will be forced to expand lest the guillotine become fashionable again. Although that would make the climate hotter for some.

[ur=https://www.thebalance.com/mixed-economy-definition-pros-cons-examples-3305594l]PS bunch of good articles here[/url]
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 05 Apr 2019, 18:49:04

Reigning in Capitalism is proving to be quite the task.  Yet, in the end we must accept that this goes beyond Economics.  This is about our species and its modes of living being now an egregious force on this planet.  And our  rapacious nature is dooming us to very probably just another failed species. We are in my opinion past the point of any viable solutions. Tinkering  with the Economy certainly is way too little too late.  7 plus Billions of us are going to continue doing what we are doing in terms of continuing to populate the Earth and continuing to want a "better" standard of living" . And we will continue until we cannot.  And then the ability of Earth to sustain even a tenth of current population levels may be in jeopardy.
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Fri 05 Apr 2019, 19:35:29

All you fools seem to think somebody is in charge, somebody is managing the economy to a master plan, or that there are rules that are shaping the economy.

No, no way, Jose. Chaos rules, people do what comes natural with ape instincts. Nobody in charge, nobody to save us or to say what comes next. This is why Capitalism exists, replaces everything else every time, and never goes away.

Pops, Capitalism began in the Stone Age, and was fully developed by the time of the Silk Road trade route. What you think was the invention of Capitalism was simply people coining words to describe how things had been working for millenia.
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 05 Apr 2019, 21:25:40

[*]
KaiserJeep wrote:All you fools seem to think................................


When you start a post like that you make yourself the biggest fool of all because you are posting to make a point but by starting out calling everyone a fool you fail in your attempt to communicate.

How downright foolish
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby dohboi » Fri 05 Apr 2019, 22:36:13

Nicely put.
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby Yonnipun » Sat 06 Apr 2019, 04:33:05

Every ism has both positive and negative side. I myself have lived in socialism ( young boy) and in capitalism. Socialism is for sure better for environment because people are poor and are not consuming a lot. People were forced to use public transport because owning a car was almost not possible. The bad thing was that you could not buy normal materials to renovate a house etc. Everything looked ugly and grey. I would not want to go back to this time. People on the other hand were quite happy. Their relationships between eachother were not as they are today. Nowadays if you are not beautiful , smart , tall etc enough than you are basically a garbage in the eyes of women. I do not say whether it is good or bad, it is a nature, biology. It is what it is. But to me ( and for 80% of men) it means that you can not have a normal relationship with a woman in prime time. This problem only grow bigger over time. Many men go ER( Elliot Roger) because of it. You never know when another ticking time bomb expodes.
I like capitalism because I like the overabundance of goods. For example I can get every tool imaginable for my hobby garage with a reasonable price. I ordered a bendpak two post lift from USA ( actally produced in China). I like the product from USA because they are robust and overengineered.My dream is to buy a real american truck with big diesel engine that would last my lifetime( Dodge ram 3500). It would be more greener that buying several small cars during my lifetime.
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 06 Apr 2019, 07:12:36

Had to look up Elliot Rogers. Someone put this on Facebook the other day.

If this a girls requirement for a mate there will be a major population decline.

8E3A8B1D-5E46-436C-A111-30F8217DC2DB.jpeg
8E3A8B1D-5E46-436C-A111-30F8217DC2DB.jpeg (205.36 KiB) Viewed 2186 times


(Except for all us guys here right? I mean we are ALL Paul Newman’s! :-D )

P.S. my wife called it a Pin Up.
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sat 06 Apr 2019, 07:42:44

Yonnipun wrote: I like the product from USA because they are robust and overengineered.My dream is to buy a real american truck with big diesel engine that would last my lifetime( Dodge ram 3500). It would be more greener that buying several small cars during my lifetime.

There is an oxymoron in that. :lol:
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sat 06 Apr 2019, 07:47:56

All aside from the point. Even though one can study a topic called "Economics", that does not imply that somebody invented it, designed it, or devised the rules that make it work.

Capitalism is basic ape behaviors, in the larger context of a society that wraps around the world and permeates every part of the planet. Amazon and eBay and all the other online merchants and the online customer base are all extensions of the basic ape desires, and such companies succeed to the degree they allow one to satisfy ape behaviors.

Hasn't anybody noticed that what they taught you about Marxism/Socialism/Communism/etc. was all nonsense? A superior economic system replaces the others. It cannnot be slowed, replaced, or denied. The Russians are turning Capitalist, the Chinese as well, even faster. The online marketplace is worldwide and every day that passes makes traditional political structures such as countries, states, and villages less meaninngful.

You can recognize change when it happens, or deny it. Denial is meaningless.
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sat 06 Apr 2019, 08:13:02

I put forward that capitalism was invented by a prehistoric woman.
At some time a wise woman wanted to gather food. (nuts, roots, berries etc.) to feed her children and mate in the winter when hunting was difficult or impossible. She built a basket so each trip back to the shelter (cave) she could carry more. She built up a stockpile of food. Come winter her children had food in their bellies but she did not share with the other mothers that had not gathered any food for themselves or the group. She and hers prospered, those that failed to follow her example did not. Capitalism was born.
As a side note some of the berries got crushed in the skin container she had stored them in and the juice fermented and wine was invented. The mate liked it.
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby Yonnipun » Sat 06 Apr 2019, 10:06:22

Socialism fails because people want to have what their neighbours have. Life in USSR could have been sustained a long time till the end of fossil fuels but people knew how other people lived in capitalistic countries. Basically simple as that. I have never read Marx but he was a genius and based what I have heard about his work I tend to think that everything he wrote was actually right.
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sat 06 Apr 2019, 10:20:37

Yonnipun wrote:Socialism fails because people want to have what their neighbours have. Life in USSR could have been sustained a long time till the end of fossil fuels but people knew how other people lived in capitalistic countries. Basically simple as that. I have never read Marx but he was a genius and based what I have heard about his work I tend to think that everything he wrote was actually right.

If you have never read Marx why do you presume to have an informed opinion about his mind or writings?
And no the USSR failed because it could not keep food on the store shelves. That the neighbors had more had nothing to do with it.
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby Pops » Sat 06 Apr 2019, 10:48:49

The bad thing was that you could not buy normal materials to renovate a house etc.

Thanks Yonnipun. Perfect example of market economy vs command economy.

The distinction to be made is that capitalism is a form of market economy, it isn't the market economy:
The underlying theme of capitalism is the use of wealth to create more wealth. The simplest form of this is lending money at interest, reviled in the Middle Ages as the sin of usury. At a more sophisticated level capitalism involves investing money in a project in return for a share of the profit.

Read more: http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/Pla ... z5kKNttnwp


"Capital" Get it?

This thread shows conservatives don't make the distinction. They equate "capitalism" with ownership of property and personal initiative, natural selection even. When in reality it is in large part about inherited wealth, the rise if financialisation, increasing monopolies and rent-seeking... least of all meritocracy.

far from being a central tenet of capitalism, the practice of inheritance actually runs counter to its principles and undermines the meritocratic ideals we claim to espouse.
https://www.tcd.ie/Economics/assets/pdf ... itance.pdf

So this has been a good thread for me. It explains why a lot of old white guys that came down on the Cadillac Queens, voted for trickle down, Contract with America (or Third Way), cheered deregulation of "banks" are now, finally, pissed and disappointed to the point of addiction and suicide and scapegoating fruit pickers.

Their god, capitalism, ate their lunch and charged them interest
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby Yonnipun » Sat 06 Apr 2019, 11:30:27

And no the USSR failed because it could not keep food on the store shelves.


I lived in this system and nobody starved. Nobody ate from the garbage bin unlike now during capitalism. How is it possible to have a socialism during 40 years and then suddenly it could not keep the food on the table. It simply is not possible because producing food is so simple with mechanized technology. The real reason is that people do not want to live like that anymore when people in other countries live like kings.
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby onlooker » Sat 06 Apr 2019, 11:42:26

It does not matter what you call the economic system nor what has transpired already. What hopefully, we are trying to do is to look forward at how our species can live with constraints and with some egalitarian and equitable organization. And we are not just an amalgamation of ape instincts, we have gone beyond that.

In the future, we either create harmonious societies with sharing and caring as principal ways of interacting among ourselves and with Nature. Or what is left of our species descends into barbarism fighting over scraps and petty conflicts whilee "some" usurp all the power and govern what remains of our species as slaves.
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sat 06 Apr 2019, 11:55:32

onlooker wrote: And we are not just an amalgamation of ape instincts, we have gone beyond that.


Sadly we have not gone very far beyond that and when placed in extreme stress we revert totally to kill or be killed.
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby Yonnipun » Sat 06 Apr 2019, 12:21:29

Sadly we have not gone very far beyond that and when placed in extreme stress we revert totally to kill or be killed.


It absolutely blows my mind that some people who turned to cannibalism during extreme famines would eat their own children.
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby Ibon » Sat 06 Apr 2019, 13:33:43

I think there are many here who see that ecological constraints will be a driving factor in molding and regulating free enterprise going forward. In the same spirit that a small town puts up their first traffic lights when the number of automobiles requires traffic flow management. When considered in purely this light embedded ideologies that inhibit change can be overcome.

I can't think of a single poster on this site who actually would advocate an economic system that does not hold at its core some elements of capitalism. As Newfie has pointed out there is a difference between capitalism and the culture of Consumerism.

That there are posters here who feel threatened at the very thought of free enterprise coming under increased government regulation is a testament to how capitalism by some is viewed as a dogma. That orientation is not very adaptive moving forward.

Once you recognize that regulation will come less from an alternative ideology and more from the basic management of an over populated world that is when we will make progress in adaptation.

That you may one day be prohibited from buying a jet ski but more importantly be educated to not desire one is where we will be headed. This does not represent a threat to free enterprise or capitalism.
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby Ibon » Sat 06 Apr 2019, 13:38:46

Yonnipun wrote:
Sadly we have not gone very far beyond that and when placed in extreme stress we revert totally to kill or be killed.


It absolutely blows my mind that some people who turned to cannibalism during extreme famines would eat their own children.


Your rational cerebral cortex mind can be out voted by your Hypothalamus when hunger reaches a certain point.

Some mothers would sacrifice their own bodies to sustain their children. Others may eat their children. This is one of the most brutal ways that natural selection can find that right balance between altruism and selfishness.

Homo sapiens are an amalgam of both.
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 06 Apr 2019, 13:42:33

And what is the point of the conversation in arguing about Capitalisim vs. Socialisim? It makes as much sense as religious sect wars; Shite vs Sunni.

The path forward Always has a branch, an opportunity to do something better. The sooner we take that branch the less suffering there will be in the world. As Ibon (notable among others) points out frequently we will eventually be forced into that alternative path. Every day we delay it gets narrower, fewer people can fit, it leads to a darker place.

So I’ve made some proposals; that we should not continue this old circular fight but look to a unified way out.

So that’s the choice, to choose one the one hand harping upon the past and blaming and collecting injustices or turning to the less well traveled road of concentrating on the future, seeking consensus where possible, and forgiveness.

Put like that it sounds homey, but it’s not. The new path is absolutely clear. We need to reduce consumption as far and as fast as we can using whatever tools we have available. The first goal is to convienced as many folks as possible of the not only the NECESSITY of Reduce, Reuse, Recycle but also the BENIFITS.
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