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The coming Civil War

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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby jedrider » Fri 16 Aug 2019, 11:14:09

asg70 wrote:
Newfie wrote:The is little difference between the parties.


Wrong. The republicans have a terrible track record on social issues and the environment. Just because the dems haven't done enough doesn't mean there is no difference in policy.


Got to agree with you. We are at the level of cognitive dissonance as a society.

On difference, right off, is that Republicans want to exploit the differences and Democrats want to triangulate over the differences. They're both living a lie, but the Republican lie is far more egregious and ultimately damaging.

We're not going to survive the coming tumult by retreating into our narrow definitions of privilege and rights and exclusion. It is ridiculous that anyone would welcome a civil war in our midst, a civil war of neighbor against neighbor. That is best left to the future, which may not be all that far off, actually.
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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 16 Aug 2019, 11:31:15

OK then let me rephrase my statement.

Neither party has a realistic idea of the problems we face or a viable plan to move forward. Survival chances under ones leadership is as bad as under the others.
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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby Ibon » Sat 17 Aug 2019, 06:50:17

Newfie wrote:Ibon,

I’ve been thinking along similar lines. I don’t know if it’s “rigged” as you say, but I’m not denying it either. I keep looking for the rugged, haven’t figured that one out yet.
.


I don't think this growing distraction/chaos/dysfunction is premeditatively rigged by some secret elites somewhere. But as everyone becomes numb to this dysfunction this creates a very convenient shadow under which corrupt corporations and government can maneuver with almost impunity.

Since most of us are over 60 it is not hard to go back in your mind to say 40 or 50 years ago and recall that society in general was on more solid ground in terms of having a collective sense of outrage over civic irregularities like rudeness, corruption, scandal, etc. Of course corruption was there back then but it was more covert. Also the middle class back then was able to put their kids through college without debt so they were at peace and didn't dig too deep into the corrupt mechanitions of corporations and the government.

We live in different times. The point of this current inquiry of the last couple of posts is to recognize that society has become so numb to the dysfunction that this creates a smoke screen of sorts where incompetency becomes normalized. This allows for corruption to go full speed rampant.

Take the Eppstein case for example. The coroner says it was really a suicide. The public is so jaded by scandal that they will quickly forget and move on to the next scandal. Those who bang the conspiracy drums that this was a set up will also join the clamor of this back ground of dysfunction which actually has the opposite effect of waking people up, it makes them further retreat into numbness. This example applies to almost all the dysfunctions out there and even applies to issues like climate change.

A great fog of numbness dominates the collective. I am guilty also of retreating. I am pinning the insects I collected on my recent entomological expedition withdrawing further into the natural world.

I have little appetite for this mess anymore since it keeps circling round and round and there is no real effective solutions at the moment, no real movement, no real leadership to address it, no real outrage in the collective at large....... just an overwhelming numbness. FUCK IT. Why should anyone really bother to concern themselves. It's a total waste of time at the moment.
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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby asg70 » Mon 19 Aug 2019, 18:41:57

I think the numbness represents only those who are suffering from politics-fatigue.

The vast majority of chatter I see online is an ideo/political dumpster-fire of one sort or another. It's all politics all the time sort of like the endless sound of slot machines in Las Vegas.

In the old days you'd read the newspaper and only if you wanted to wallow in the mire did you go leaf over to letters to the editor. Or with TV it was Walter Cronkite news you can trust and if you were really hardcore you'd watch Meet the Press on Sunday morning. Cable news and AM talk shifted news towards opinion but now the internet has tilted the scales to the point where 99% of what you read is opinionating, everything from the peanut gallery comments underneath an MSM article or a facebook wall share.

The internet constantly brushes us up against people we disagree with, but it discourages any sort of civil discourse, and so it's basically the rhetorical equivalent of Baghdad house to house tribal warfare.

Image

That's why it's not hard to understand why some of it spills over into what seems like a new mass shooting event every week.

The only thing keeping a lid on all this is the hope that people are content to merely blow off steam online with words, but since nobody EVER changes anyone's minds online, there is no real satisfaction to be had. It's an endless treadmill.

BOLD PREDICTIONS
-Billions are on the verge of starvation as the lockdown continues. (yoshua, 5/20/20)

HALL OF SHAME:
-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby Ibon » Mon 19 Aug 2019, 19:10:38

I agree ASG with what you wrote which leads to the conclusion that nourishment of the soul is found turning off your digital device, TV, and restricting media inputs to a minimum. Getting more out of doors.

My Amish forefathers forbid telephones and TV's in the home. Of course no internet in the home. They saw the telephone and television as weakening the strength of their families and communities.

Can't we have a renaissance along these lines just without the Jesus Christ part?

I am down to about 20 minutes a day on line. I still come here for the occasional stimulating dialogue but really the on line experience has become pretty paltry and uninteresting. And the media?

The media reminds me of the tobacco industry manipulating the nicotine content of their products. I always told smokers, "Do you enjoy being manipulated by the tobacco industry every time you light up a cigarette?

This is now the same question I have for everyone who follows the media, social media, cable news outlets etc?

Do you enjoy being manipulated by the media industries in what you ingest?

Think about it.....

We only have ourselves to blame.

There is this incredibly beautiful organic world out there full of organic people with whom we can break bread and share a laugh.

What the fuck are we doing here anyway?
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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 20 Aug 2019, 06:12:52

This discussion made me think of Chris Hedges and in searching for his current thoughts I came across the below piece. It may help explain a lot. In short the political divide is the effect of news outlets thirst for profits. I’m not sure that’s all their is to it but it’s one way of looking at it.

Anyway, a decent read.

https://www.truthdig.com/articles/the-m ... with-hate/
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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby Ibon » Tue 20 Aug 2019, 08:21:22

Newfie wrote:This discussion made me think of Chris Hedges and in searching for his current thoughts I came across the below piece. It may help explain a lot. In short the political divide is the effect of news outlets thirst for profits. I’m not sure that’s all their is to it but it’s one way of looking at it.

Anyway, a decent read.

https://www.truthdig.com/articles/the-m ... with-hate/


Mass media and social media is actually molding culture. We have touched on this in past threads. The fact that we will always have a majority of citizens who simply do not question. Made worst because our educational system teaches you not to question. We are socialized to conform to the digital gods. Socialized to accept mediocrity.

Something keeps nagging at me though, that somewhere deep inside the catatonic sleep of the collective that there still is this latent animal cunningness that has not died completely. That will not succumb. That at some point a resistance will rise. Am I just projecting my deepest wish or am I tapping into something?

Isn't there inherent in every individual a desire to rise and moult out of his sheeple skin and actualize the self toward emancipation? Or is this just a romantic notion?

Personally I have an extremely hard time understanding how folks accept mediocrity. This gift of life, this short time here being a sentient being and wasted on the mundane.

Why do so many accept so little?

What I am saying here is not the voice of the privileged. You can self actualize and develop a wealthy soul having very little material riches.

Why is our society so deeply asleep?
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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby asg70 » Tue 20 Aug 2019, 14:01:39

Ibon wrote:My Amish forefathers forbid telephones and TV's in the home. Of course no internet in the home. They saw the telephone and television as weakening the strength of their families and communities.


The difference is the Amish are a community within a community, a quasi-autonomous intentional community. In a functional democracy, a voter needs to stay engaged and maintain the free-flow of ideas. Tuning out beyond a certain point leads one to being ignorant of what's going on in the world which makes for an uninformed voter.

So the problem is really cultural/psychological. We now have a generation or two of the population that believes that knock-down-winner-take-all is the only mode of political discourse worth having. It is for all intents and purposes...fundamentalist, and on the stage of escalation that leads to civil war. Sorry to invoke Godwin's law but remember that Hitler published his mission-statement after his failed coup. I'm all for freedom of speech but words are not as harmless as one might think. They can be a harbinger of deadly action. As the saying goes: "war is a continuation of politics by other means." Politics is the art of compromise but we live in a society that no longer believes compromise is acceptable, only ALL or NOTHING.

Anyone remember the rally to restore sanity and/or fear?

It failed hard, but something like that is what is needed...badly.

There needs to be a recognition that some minimal rules of conduct are necessary in any political debate, not just at the formal level (ahem, small hands, period blood, etc...) but in how each of us as individuals butt heads.

This erosion of our interpersonal skills is maybe even more of an existential threat than the rest of limits to growth.

BOLD PREDICTIONS
-Billions are on the verge of starvation as the lockdown continues. (yoshua, 5/20/20)

HALL OF SHAME:
-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 20 Aug 2019, 15:56:44

ASG I am encouraged to hear you espouse such ideas.
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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby Ibon » Tue 20 Aug 2019, 18:04:48

asg70 wrote:There needs to be a recognition that some minimal rules of conduct are necessary in any political debate, not just at the formal level (ahem, small hands, period blood, etc...) but in how each of us as individuals butt heads.

This erosion of our interpersonal skills is maybe even more of an existential threat than the rest of limits to growth.


You are an above average thinker on this topic. Your average American does not go so deep. Having said that I do believe that on some level the pendulum will swing where folks, even those who don't dissect so deeply this dilemma as we are doing, simply get tired of the current discourse; divisive, uncivil, winner takes all debate, etc. etc.

I have asked before, are we close to the pendulum swinging with a growing desire toward unity in our discourse? Or is this tribal stoking of grievances still have a long way to go?
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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby asg70 » Tue 20 Aug 2019, 20:02:30

Newfie wrote:ASG I am encouraged to hear you espouse such ideas.


Inside every cynical person is a disappointed idealist.

BOLD PREDICTIONS
-Billions are on the verge of starvation as the lockdown continues. (yoshua, 5/20/20)

HALL OF SHAME:
-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 21 Dec 2019, 15:58:19

I though I would bump this thread because of the increasing polarization.

Back when this thread started I was sanguine we would avoid a conflict, and I still don’t see much chance of a Blue/Gray organized warfare. I am starting to be swayed that we may see more civil unrest and perhaps some areas seeking to leave OR some group trying to force a coup.

The way things stand at he moment, with Nadler saying the Presidency is too important to leave to elections, it strikes me that if Trump were to win the 2020 election the Democrats would go into open armed revolt. They may try to use military force on the White House.

What is impossible for me to imagine is a USA where Trump wins election without significant bloodshed.
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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sat 21 Dec 2019, 19:38:13

Newfie wrote:The way things stand at he moment, with Nadler saying the Presidency is too important to leave to elections, it strikes me that if Trump were to win the 2020 election the Democrats would go into open armed revolt. They may try to use military force on the White House.

What is impossible for me to imagine is a USA where Trump wins election without significant bloodshed.


I don't see anything like a military coup, but I agree there will be bloodshed.

When Trump was elected in 2016 antifa and other similar masked leftist brownshirts rampaged through several cities, smashing store windows and vandalizing cars etc. In cities with progressive mayors, like Portland oregon and Berkeley california there have been multiple violent episodes since then, usually with the leftist brownshirts trying to stomp out free speech at the local university or beat up pro-Trump protestors and similar things while the city police stood by and let antifa rule the streets.

I think we'll see more of the same in the run up to the 2020 election, and then much worse leftist street violence after the election if Trump should win again.

Image
I predict Antifa and other leftist groups will escalate their campaign of street violence if Trump wins again.

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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sat 21 Dec 2019, 20:09:10

The left and Antifa should remember that the Trump voters are the "deplorables clinging to their bibles and guns". They know how to use those guns and any leftist violence would be put down permanently with head shots.
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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby careinke » Sat 21 Dec 2019, 20:41:03

Newfie wrote:I though I would bump this thread because of the increasing polarization.

Back when this thread started I was sanguine we would avoid a conflict, and I still don’t see much chance of a Blue/Gray organized warfare. I am starting to be swayed that we may see more civil unrest and perhaps some areas seeking to leave OR some group trying to force a coup.

The way things stand at he moment, with Nadler saying the Presidency is too important to leave to elections, it strikes me that if Trump were to win the 2020 election the Democrats would go into open armed revolt. They may try to use military force on the White House.

What is impossible for me to imagine is a USA where Trump wins election without significant bloodshed.


I have many of these same feelings. My guess is Trump will win, and there will probably be some riots in the cities.

You don't have to worry about the military attacking the white house, although you may see them defending it. "Protection of the president" training is an annual requirement of all service members and the enlisted oath calls for obeying the orders of the president.
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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 22 Dec 2019, 05:42:01

Yeah, maybe I was/am in a moment of panic. A lot of the military comes from “fly over country”. And I don’t see a lot of “faces of color” in the antifa photographs. If it is just my paranoia then that’s a good thing.

Still unsettling.
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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby evilgenius » Sun 22 Dec 2019, 07:43:55

I think each side has lost the ability to see the other side's point of view. It behooves us to study the reasons why other people think the way they do. It especially behooves us to study those with whom we are the most different. Whether it is deeply held notions built around the idea of the eventual success of capitalism, or fond feelings for times and places well remembered, we ought to be able to understand the very legitimate reasons why people disagree with us. Some things, when offended against, take longer to heal than others, We should refrain from insults which last generations to heal. Unless, we really can see better than those with whom we take umbrage. But, that being the case, then we will have our lockers stocked with proper arguments, and not the idiocy of personal insult or retreat into a sort of isolation that makes us happy, but takes away our well needed presence from the rest of the world.
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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby Cog » Sun 22 Dec 2019, 08:33:35

Or we understand the other side of the political divide all too well and vehemently disagree with it.
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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 22 Dec 2019, 09:01:51

evilgenius wrote:I think each side has lost the ability to see the other side's point of view. It behooves us to study the reasons why other people think the way they do. It especially behooves us to study those with whom we are the most different. Whether it is deeply held notions built around the idea of the eventual success of capitalism, or fond feelings for times and places well remembered, we ought to be able to understand the very legitimate reasons why people disagree with us. Some things, when offended against, take longer to heal than others, We should refrain from insults which last generations to heal. Unless, we really can see better than those with whom we take umbrage. But, that being the case, then we will have our lockers stocked with proper arguments, and not the idiocy of personal insult or retreat into a sort of isolation that makes us happy, but takes away our well needed presence from the rest of the world.


Evil,

That’s a great assessment.

My “personal problem” is I disagree with almost everyone. It seems my perspective is so far off the map that people can’t fathom it. Folks want to classify me as either Right or Left when I’m really just me.

I’ve no idea how many others feel like that.

Clearly Cog (and others of the left persuasion) strongly identify with their particular clan. I don’t find that very useful because it shuts off meaningful conversations. It becomes like arguing religion, “It’s what I believe and I’m right so “pfft!””
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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby dissident » Sun 29 Dec 2019, 10:15:43

https://www.zerohedge.com/political/dem ... g-virginia

The D. Party is composed of social engineering nut jobs. Here we see their newspeak and Orwellian "logic". Racism would imply that non-whites are being deliberately and physically excluded from these "white" suburbs. Where is there a shred of evidence that black home buyers are being denied during purchase time? These D. Party maggots are using the mere fact that these neighborhoods are not some puree of races as evidence of racism. That is the same sort of twisting of the facts as claiming women and not paid the same as men. It has been against the law since the mid 1960s for wage discrimination. Aggregate incomes of all women and men reflect job type and overtime choices. It is a bald faced lie to call this discrimination since it is the "victims" who are the ones that are 100% responsible for their choices.

These D. Party maggots really should be lynched since nobody gave them any authority for social engineering. And it is time for the voters to wake the f*ck up and stop voting like drones for parties because they have never voted any other way.
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