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The coming Civil War

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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby Ibon » Tue 06 Aug 2019, 17:09:44

Newfie wrote:Pondering the “why” of this situation I noticed that we haven’t had a good blood letting war in some time. The recent actions have all be sort of sanitized and are held at a distance from the public (especially the Left) through the evolution of the all volunteer army and a “warrior class.” Maybe our collective consciousness wants it needs some bloodshed now and again, some good old outrageous hatred of a villain, to purge our souls. Finding none outside the country we have created one within.

Thinking.


I think there is something to this. I stand outside this polarity looking in as I am not any longer inside the USA. Both the right and left just seem manic.

Here I am working all day, enjoying the wilderness, enjoying guests, getting along very good with the local community, our indigenous staff, etc. Everything is comparably harmonious and there is just plain good will here. I ask myself why up there in the USA is there so much damn churning frustration?

From here it just looks insane.
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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 06 Aug 2019, 17:32:28

Cog wrote:Democratic Socialists of America. They just had a convention. They aren't organizing against the Democratic party. They are organizing within the Democratic Party.


Thanks for that, I deleted my post because it was pretty silly.
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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 06 Aug 2019, 17:33:43

Ibon,

I get the same feeling also being out of the USA 10 months a year. I’ve very little desire to go back.
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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby Ibon » Tue 06 Aug 2019, 17:47:44

Newfie wrote:Ibon,

I get the same feeling also being out of the USA 10 months a year. I’ve very little desire to go back.


In September we close on our second and last property in Florida and will visit our daughter in California. Then back here. I have not been up there since November last year.

I can't help but interpret some of the dysfunction in the way people communicate on the internet and I am hoping to find during my upcoming visit some evidence of sobriety, some evidence of the approaching swing of the pendulum where people are tired of stoking grievances and the beginnings of the desire toward looking for common ground.

Maybe still too early.
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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby Ibon » Tue 06 Aug 2019, 19:20:06

Newfie, something you and others may find amusing.

We have two lepidopterists here (moth and butterfly entomologists) and we are hanging around the table discussing taxonomy and reviewing some new site records for Panama and helping this entomologist from Poland who asked us help on an ID from a photo he took while visiting us a few months back. Anyway, this Russian guy Anton who was here a couple months ago posted on an on line forum a picture of this moth that he claimed was a new species.

We were all sitting around here reading the heated comments on this forum where these guys started getting all pissed off at eachother and we were all laughing as this one guy wrote to the Russian to get his head out of his ass and stop spreading taxonomic vandalism! !

Here we were, face to face and laughing over the absurdity of all the heated rage that was generated on this on line forum. I mentioned that if all the parties involved were sitting around the table with us there would not be this nasty tone.

I couldn't help but reflect how strangely relevant that is to discussions on this site and social media in general.

More and more I am coming to believe the culpability of the internet in the jarring and fractured and polarized discourse we see in the USA today. Compounded by the lack of community.

The dogs on this site with the loudest barks probably are pretty lonely people and not hanging around other real organic humans all that much....... not to name any names or anything.
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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby asg70 » Tue 06 Aug 2019, 22:31:00

Ibon wrote:The dogs on this site with the loudest barks probably are pretty lonely people and not hanging around other real organic humans all that much....... not to name any names or anything.


This is what happens when people "hang around other real organic humans" in the US:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7SqtIe5rZQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxY-5ISEHPg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsH6L4EAe7o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6hHXYViI9Y

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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby Cog » Tue 06 Aug 2019, 22:42:44

There is little doubt the left is both mentally unstable but also violent. AOC is now aligned with Antifa, the brownshirts of the left.

Every day the normalcy mask the left wears slips off a bit more to reveal the evil lying within. Prepare yourself men.
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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 07 Aug 2019, 05:00:17

Ibon,

That’s what scares me, I’m seeing it in my personal interactions. And since I’ve been mostly a Leftie that’s who I talk to and that’s where I see it personally. Just pure dogma and hate.

I’ve no doubt it is counterbalanced on the Right, but I don’t move in those circles.
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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby Ibon » Wed 07 Aug 2019, 07:44:56

Newfie wrote:Ibon,

That’s what scares me, I’m seeing it in my personal interactions. And since I’ve been mostly a Leftie that’s who I talk to and that’s where I see it personally. Just pure dogma and hate.

I’ve no doubt it is counterbalanced on the Right, but I don’t move in those circles.


ASG70 posts videos of pissed of people on the street. The left is full of rage and grievances. The right also and has the supreme leader whose primary strategy is stoking grievances.

You don't have to dig deep to see that a society easily manipulated by stoking grievances is a society no longer grounded firmly in fulfilling work, fulfilling friendships, fulfilling communities. If you are cut off and feeling alienated and have no solid ground you become ripe for being manipulated by "Grievance Preaching"

I was thinking about that quintessential over weight asshole drug addict Rush Limbaugh the other day. And how 15 years ago he had a considerable following, not huge, but there were already enough frustrated alienated people out there who would find comfort tuning into his rants and rages. Now 15 years later we see on both sides of the political spectrum an exponentially larger percentage of the population receptive to "Grievance Preaching"

Consider these serial killers. Many claim they are sick individuals. I see them as the tip of an iceberg of a sick society. They are not rogue anomalies but representatives of the collective frustration.

But everyone can tune into this dysfunctionality or choose to create your own. I have made an effort to surround myself with fulfilling relationships and work. It has paid off. I am not pissed off.

So each and everyone of you can choose your identity and reality.

You don't have to be a sheeple to the "Grievance Preaching"
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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 07 Aug 2019, 08:14:12

Consider these serial killers. Many claim they are sick individuals. I see them as the tip of an iceberg of a sick society. They are not rogue anomalies but representatives of the collective frustration


I read a tiny bit of a linked incel site someone here posted on another thread. That seems like a great place to start to figure out what the hell is wrong here.
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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby Ibon » Wed 07 Aug 2019, 10:10:08

Newfie wrote:
Consider these serial killers. Many claim they are sick individuals. I see them as the tip of an iceberg of a sick society. They are not rogue anomalies but representatives of the collective frustration


I read a tiny bit of a linked incel site someone here posted on another thread. That seems like a great place to start to figure out what the hell is wrong here.


I am going to nibble on this topic. We do have to focus on America here although it does have broader applications.

There is no other culture like America where its citizens were educated to believe we were the best, the greatest, the chosen ones on the planet. We were fed a steady diet of exceptionalism since decades.

When individuals started feeling none to exceptional regarding their life satisfaction index well there was a disconnect between the message of being a chosen one but feeling less so.

I think this is part of the problem of why we see everyone whining and susceptible to "Grievance Preaching"

Most citizens in most countries did not carry this burden of being the chosen ones, the exceptional ones. They did not have any high expectations to start with and so most citizens on the planet are content with a less than perfect government, less than perfect job, less than perfect life.

Not Americans. We were promised Damnit that we were great. Especially if you were white. Sorry to bring up race but this is a significant point especially when you consider studies that show that African Americans and minorities are less likely to be serial killers, less likely to commit suicide and more resilient to stress.


http://theconversation.com/black-americ ... cans-62338

However, research suggests minority groups in the U.S. tend to be better off in terms of mental health than white Americans. Depression, anxiety and suicide, for instance, are more common among white Americans than black Americans.

Research, including work I have done with my colleagues at the University of Michigan, demonstrates that although white Americans are, on average, the “healthiest group,” they are also, on average, far less “resilient” than black Americans. It seems that vulnerability is a cost of privilege, and resilience comes as a result of adversity.


The reason for this is obvious. Blacks and minorities have had more practice with the disconnect between the message of exceptionalism and the experience of ones own life that does not match this.

So yes, this is not identity politics but real. Whites are having a really hard time being knocked off the ladder of exceptionalism or having to share it with others. Trump knows this well and has been masterful at exploiting this. You really don't see that many serial killers being people of color. That one shooter in South Florida had a latino background I think which would be an exception.

Funny thing is I feel quite exceptional down here in my private reserve surrounded by wonderful warm people when I look northward at all the pissed off fools acting like sheeples hooking themselves to social media and gorging themselves daily on "Grievance Preaching"

If you can't extract yourself from this then you deserve it.

I am not feeling particularly compassionate today to folks who are whining about no longer being the best and greatest even if we have a president selling red hats that say otherwise!

Can we laugh at ourselves yet?
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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby gollum » Wed 07 Aug 2019, 10:50:17

Ibon wrote:
Newfie wrote:Ibon,

That’s what scares me, I’m seeing it in my personal interactions. And since I’ve been mostly a Leftie that’s who I talk to and that’s where I see it personally. Just pure dogma and hate.

I’ve no doubt it is counterbalanced on the Right, but I don’t move in those circles.


ASG70 posts videos of pissed of people on the street. The left is full of rage and grievances. The right also and has the supreme leader whose primary strategy is stoking grievances.

You don't have to dig deep to see that a society easily manipulated by stoking grievances is a society no longer grounded firmly in fulfilling work, fulfilling friendships, fulfilling communities. If you are cut off and feeling alienated and have no solid ground you become ripe for being manipulated by "Grievance Preaching"

I was thinking about that quintessential over weight asshole drug addict Rush Limbaugh the other day. And how 15 years ago he had a considerable following, not huge, but there were already enough frustrated alienated people out there who would find comfort tuning into his rants and rages. Now 15 years later we see on both sides of the political spectrum an exponentially larger percentage of the population receptive to "Grievance Preaching"

Consider these serial killers. Many claim they are sick individuals. I see them as the tip of an iceberg of a sick society. They are not rogue anomalies but representatives of the collective frustration.

But everyone can tune into this dysfunctionality or choose to create your own. I have made an effort to surround myself with fulfilling relationships and work. It has paid off. I am not pissed off.

So each and everyone of you can choose your identity and reality.

You don't have to be a sheeple to the "Grievance Preaching"



It seems to me that those that you say are stoking anger are simply giving it a voice. If people didn’t agree with Limbaugh and his counterparts they simply wouldn’t have listeners.
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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby asg70 » Wed 07 Aug 2019, 12:08:50

Ibon wrote:I have made an effort to surround myself with fulfilling relationships and work. It has paid off. I am not pissed off.


That "making an effort" has involved leaving the US and spending your days surrounded by an idyllic rainforest. Would you be able to be quite so zen if you were living in the US toe to toe with this sort of dysfunction?

It's a chicken and the egg thing. What comes first, anger or getting angry because other people are angry at you (or more appropriately, your identity group)? Either way it's a vicious cycle.

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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby Ibon » Wed 07 Aug 2019, 12:49:16

gollum wrote:
It seems to me that those that you say are stoking anger are simply giving it a voice. If people didn’t agree with Limbaugh and his counterparts they simply wouldn’t have listeners.


That's correct. None of these stoking anger exist in a vacuum. They are tapping right into a real true element in the zeitgeist and giving it a voice. That is kind of my point.
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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby Ibon » Wed 07 Aug 2019, 12:53:17

asg70 wrote:
Ibon wrote:I have made an effort to surround myself with fulfilling relationships and work. It has paid off. I am not pissed off.


That "making an effort" has involved leaving the US and spending your days surrounded by an idyllic rainforest. Would you be able to be quite so zen if you were living in the US toe to toe with this sort of dysfunction?

It's a chicken and the egg thing. What comes first, anger or getting angry because other people are angry at you (or more appropriately, your identity group)? Either way it's a vicious cycle.


If you understand this then you find your own refuge from it. You don't have to leave the country. There are ways to live in the USA and insulate yourself from this crap. Looking at Youtube videos of primitive behavior is not a very good idea.

I do have to admit that last couple of times I was back in the USA I got drawn into the drama even though I told myself I would not let myself go there. I understand the pull. Its powerful. All the more reason to make extra ordinary efforts to understand this and try to decouple yourself from the collective..... At the moment that's a pretty tall order. I understand this, you have my full sympathy.
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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 07 Aug 2019, 18:15:14

Excerpt from “War is a Force that gives us Meaning.”

The enduring attraction of war is this: Even with its destruction and carnage it can give us what we long for in life. It can give us purpose, meaning, a reason for living. Only when we are in the midst of conflict does the shallowness and vapidness of much of our lives become apparent. Trivia dominates our conversations and increasingly our airwaves. And war is an enticing elixir. It gives us resolve, a cause. It allows us to be noble. And those who have the least meaning in their lives, the impoverished refugees in Gaza, the disenfranchised North African immigrants in France, even the legions of young who live in the splendid indolence and safety of the industrialized world, are all susceptible to war’s appeal.
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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby dissident » Wed 07 Aug 2019, 19:08:28

https://twitter.com/RealSaavedra/status ... 7490774016

Time to clamp down on these social engineer clowns at Twitter and Facebook. If you care about the risk of civil war, then this sort of brazen attempt at information control has to be stopped. Note that Twitter and Facebook do not try to censor Antifa and assorted "leftist" dirtbags for calling for violence and spreading hate speech.
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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby Ibon » Wed 07 Aug 2019, 20:01:31

Newfie wrote:Excerpt from “War is a Force that gives us Meaning.”

The enduring attraction of war is this: Even with its destruction and carnage it can give us what we long for in life. It can give us purpose, meaning, a reason for living. Only when we are in the midst of conflict does the shallowness and vapidness of much of our lives become apparent. Trivia dominates our conversations and increasingly our airwaves. And war is an enticing elixir. It gives us resolve, a cause. It allows us to be noble. And those who have the least meaning in their lives, the impoverished refugees in Gaza, the disenfranchised North African immigrants in France, even the legions of young who live in the splendid indolence and safety of the industrialized world, are all susceptible to war’s appeal.


With the hindsight of the past 50 years regarding every single conflict over seas that the US was involved in, every conflict since WWII, and with the understanding of the underlying reasons for entering into these conflicts, I have a question. If in the years ahead we invent another conflict would you encourage or dissuade an 18 year old son or daughter to inlist?

I would tell them to not inlist. And you want to know why? For the reason Newfie you just wrote. There will be more than enough volunteers currently adrift with meaningless lives who will find purpose and noble relationships by entering into war.

There are a small percentage of the population that can find integrity, purpose and meaningful lives without war. I am part of that percentage. So are my offspring. There is on the other hand a vast majority who as you say need conflict to define them.

It's quite similar with religion. Some need the literal script to tell them how to behave. A much smaller percentage can create their own spiritual path.

I think we may very well be heading toward some kind of war. I am grateful there are enough folks out there adrift and living mediocre lives that there will be enough volunteers to not involve any of my loved ones.
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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 08 Aug 2019, 03:46:57

It’s like so much else, there are conundrums with not clear answer.

I think the all volunteer military has led us to a place where we have developed a military class. When we had the draft every elites son was subject to the dangers of war, we were more cautious with how we spilt our blood. But now how many on the Left ever see military service? My guess is next to none.

Would I suggest my kin volunteer for war? No. But I have argued for my kids and grand kids to join the military because at that time in their lives they could have used 3 hits and a cot while they sorted themselves out.

No simple answers.
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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 08 Aug 2019, 04:45:37

I’m working my way through the above quote book “War is a Force that Gives us Meaning”. By its nature the book is describing wars and how they get started from a historical perspective.

I’m trying to read the book with the thought in mind that we are perhaps approaching a civil war. And thus use the book to look at current events, in real time, to observe the course of the potential conflict. It’s an interesting exercise.

I’m early on in the book, he is making the point that wars are started by thugs for their own gain. Who are our thugs? One can clearly point to Trump, with some good reason. Hillary fit the bill on the Left but she is gone, I think. So who is the current puppet master? Pelosi? Obama? I don’t know.

But also the thought comes to mind that the reason the Left is so organized and hateful against Trump is that it’s all the Democrats have to organize themselves. They have no other cohesive platform around which to form some grand coalition. The Left NEEDS Trump, were he to drop dead they would be in a frightful state.

Not saying the R’s are better, they need him to rally around for similar reasons.

Interesting times.
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