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Nuclear War, Dieoffs, and Doomer Porn! Pt. 4

For discussions of events and conditions not necessarily related to Peak Oil.

Re: Nuclear War, Dieoffs, and Doomer Porn! Pt. 2

Unread postby Tanada » Thu 04 Oct 2018, 21:22:06

What a pile of BS. For one thing the last set of equipment was partially emplaced and the wells already drilled when President Clinton ordered the moratorium in 1993. So the wells are already there and installing the instruments sure as heck doesn't take six months unless you are on some wacky cost plus contract where every day of delay leads to a bigger payout.

For decades the USA routinley planned and executed a set of tests every year. Initially in the South Pacific and then from the early 1950's in the Nevada test Site. Above ground tests in the Pacific were ended in the early 1960's when the USSR promised to stop open air testing after Tsar Bomba and our government went along.

But deep testing is and was perfectly legit and continued from the mid 1960's after the atmospheric test ban all the way to 1993 when President Clinton instituted the moratorium. The problem is, to have a real credible deterrent you can not just claim your 30 year old designs are perfect and effective. Every now and then you need to pull something out of the inventory and test it to see how real world aging may have effected it. Be a shame to have a nuclear war because the Chinese or Russia know their weapons are fully functional but they believe ours have corroded into uselessness.
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Re: Nuclear War, Dieoffs, and Doomer Porn! Pt. 2

Unread postby GHung » Thu 04 Oct 2018, 21:31:02

Madman.
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Re: Nuclear War, Dieoffs, and Doomer Porn! Pt. 2

Unread postby Cog » Thu 04 Oct 2018, 22:46:34

Nuclear surety is part of process of keeping our nuclear deterrent credible.
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Re: Nuclear War, Dieoffs, and Doomer Porn! Pt. 2

Unread postby Tanada » Fri 05 Oct 2018, 08:14:26

Cog wrote:Nuclear surety is part of process of keeping our nuclear deterrent credible.


Exactly! I don't want to have a nuclear war just because our deterrent is doubted by foreign powers!

Nuclear weapons exist no matter how hard you squeeze your eyes closed and wish them away. Unless or until every country allows unlimited inspection by an international search force they will remain in arsenals all over the place whether the country in question is an official nuclear weapon power or not.

I don't foresee any circumstances where the UK, France, China, India, Pakistan, Russia, USA and Israel are all going to welcome in an international disarmament force. So long as one country has nuclear weapons nobody else is going to give them up. If a major power believes the USA arsenal is not a real threat the temptation of making a first strike becomes a very real threat to world peace.

Let me be clear, I think adopting the MAD standard of defense in the 1960's was a huge mistake, but it has kept us from actually getting into a war for almost two generations. The M in MAD stands for Mutual, because all sides believe an attack on another power would mean retaliation that would destroy them as well. Keep ignoring assurance of function and sooner or later someone is going to decide to roll the dice on civilization.
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Re: Nuclear War, Dieoffs, and Doomer Porn! Pt. 2

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 05 Oct 2018, 11:09:54

But what most people I believe think, is that the very creation and deployment of Nuclear Weapons was a huge and tragic mistake. It is like the nuclear genie is out of the bottle and no putting it back in.
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Re: Nuclear War, Dieoffs, and Doomer Porn! Pt. 2

Unread postby Cog » Fri 05 Oct 2018, 11:46:16

The employment of two nuclear weapons on Japan saved millions of lives. Most of which were Japanese. While MAD doctrine might not make logical sense, no one has employed a nuclear weapon in war for 73 years.

Research operation Olympic and Downfall.
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Re: Nuclear War, Dieoffs, and Doomer Porn! Pt. 2

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 05 Oct 2018, 12:44:07

Cog wrote:The employment of two nuclear weapons on Japan saved millions of lives. Most of which were Japanese. While MAD doctrine might not make logical sense, no one has employed a nuclear weapon in war for 73 years.

Research operation Olympic and Downfall.

Yeah, well research the Cuban Missile Crisis and how close we came to all out nuclear war. Also, research briefcase size nuclear weapons. Given our history of warfare and emotional mindset, having such a devaststing weapon being produced by several countries and with instructions on manufacturing a tactical nuclear weapon on the Net, this should not provide any sense of comfort to anyone. Asymetrical warfare is the manner anyone with a grievance can lash out. And the destruction they can inflict with a nuclear weapon is enormous. So, nothing more complicated than an economic transaction whereby supply meets demand
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Re: Nuclear War, Dieoffs, and Doomer Porn! Pt. 2

Unread postby Tanada » Fri 05 Oct 2018, 12:58:49

onlooker wrote:
Cog wrote:The employment of two nuclear weapons on Japan saved millions of lives. Most of which were Japanese. While MAD doctrine might not make logical sense, no one has employed a nuclear weapon in war for 73 years.

Research operation Olympic and Downfall.

Yeah, well research the Cuban Missile Crisis and how close we came to all out nuclear war. Also, research briefcase size nuclear weapons. Given our history of warfare and emotional mindset, having such a devaststing weapon being produced by several countries and with instructions on manufacturing a tactical nuclear weapon on the Net, this should not provide any sense of comfort to anyone. Asymetrical warfare is the manner anyone with a grievance can lash out. And the destruction they can inflict with a nuclear weapon is enormous. So, nothing more complicated than an economic transaction whereby supply meets demand


We know foreign countries are not about to give up their nuclear weapons so what do you suggest we do about it? As you said, the genie is out of the bottle and will not be put back, so what is your alternative? Completely disarm the USA and hope no tyrant ever takes over a different nuclear power? Pakistan and India each have over 100 devices, possibly many more. We do not live in a perfect world, far from it. If the USA were not able to retaliate what is to stop some future Jihadi leader of Pakistan from striking the USA to rid the world of the 'Great Satan'? Like it or not we have made a lot of enemies around the world in the last century, and if we were vulnerable to a first strike without the ability to retaliate you can bet dollars to doughnuts one or another of them would hit us as hard as they possibly could. A dozen destroyed cities could be the cost of your disarmament plan in our imperfect world, if we were lucky, and the top hundred population centers if you are talking a true revenge mission strike.
I should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, write, balance accounts, build a wall, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, pitch manure, program a computer, cook, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
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Re: Nuclear War, Dieoffs, and Doomer Porn! Pt. 2

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 05 Oct 2018, 13:08:18

Tanada, I am not pretending to offer any such disarmament solution. Which is why I said the biggest mistake was their creation and development in the first place. I see no solution except perhaps in some farther off future. How a nuclear weapons free world can be accomplished.? I haven't the slightest clue or even whether it is possible.
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Re: Nuclear War, Dieoffs, and Doomer Porn! Pt. 2

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Fri 05 Oct 2018, 13:29:59

Nuclear weapons were inevitable. Both Japan and Germany had them under development in WW2. The US economy plus the recruiting of scientific minds from many countries enabled the US to win that particular race.

I happen to agree, Nagasaki and Hiroshima - both legitimate military targets in WW2 - were the price for 73 years of peace. Maybe we need a larger threat to secure the peace now.

Kinetic enegy weapons delivered from orbit may be most of the answer. Just as destructive as nukes, they offer pinpoint accuracy and zero nuclear fallout or ground contamination. The size of the industrial base necessary to support a space program will ensure that no upstart countries join the select Kinetic Energy Weapons club. Any country that employs a first strike nuclear weapon - or multiple Muslim countries if NGO groups like Al Quaida employ such - would face a rain of rocks from space until they literally rejoin the Stone Age.
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Re: Nuclear War, Dieoffs, and Doomer Porn! Pt. 2

Unread postby Subjectivist » Fri 05 Oct 2018, 17:18:36

KaiserJeep wrote:Nuclear weapons were inevitable. Both Japan and Germany had them under development in WW2. The US economy plus the recruiting of scientific minds from many countries enabled the US to win that particular race.

I happen to agree, Nagasaki and Hiroshima - both legitimate military targets in WW2 - were the price for 73 years of peace. Maybe we need a larger threat to secure the peace now.

Kinetic enegy weapons delivered from orbit may be most of the answer. Just as destructive as nukes, they offer pinpoint accuracy and zero nuclear fallout or ground contamination. The size of the industrial base necessary to support a space program will ensure that no upstart countries join the select Kinetic Energy Weapons club. Any country that employs a first strike nuclear weapon - or multiple Muslim countries if NGO groups like Al Quaida employ such - would face a rain of rocks from space until they literally rejoin the Stone Age.


The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress. You need something like the novel setting to acvomplish a sustained large scale bombardment.
II Chronicles 7:14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.
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Trump attempts transfer of nuclear tech to Saudi Arabia

Unread postby Cid_Yama » Sat 02 Mar 2019, 03:05:49

Multiple Whistleblowers Raise Grave Concerns with White House Efforts to Transfer Sensitive U.S. Nuclear Technology to Saudi Arabia
Today, Rep. Elijah E. Cummings, the Chairman of the Committee on Oversight and Reform, issued an interim staff report after multiple whistleblowers came forward to warn about efforts inside the White House to rush the transfer of highly sensitive U.S. nuclear technology to Saudi Arabia in potential violation of the Atomic Energy Act and without review by Congress as required by law—efforts that may be ongoing to this day. The report states:

“The whistleblowers who came forward have expressed significant concerns about the potential procedural and legal violations connected with rushing through a plan to transfer nuclear technology to Saudi Arabia. They have warned of conflicts of interest among top White House advisers that could implicate federal criminal statutes. They have also warned about a working environment inside the White House marked by chaos, dysfunction, and backbiting. And they have warned about political appointees ignoring directives from top ethics advisors at the White House who repeatedly and unsuccessfully ordered senior Trump Administration officials to halt their efforts.”

The report warns that that White House efforts to transfer sensitive U.S. nuclear technology to Saudi Arabia may be accelerating after meetings last week at the White House and ahead of a planned visit to Saudi Arabia by the President’s son-in-law, Jared Kushner:

“The Committee’s investigation is particularly critical because the Administration’s efforts to transfer sensitive U.S. nuclear technology to Saudi Arabia appear to be ongoing. On February 12, 2019, the President met with nuclear power developers at the White House about sharing nuclear technology with countries in the Middle East, including Saudi Arabia. In addition, next week Mr. Kushner will be embarking on a tour of Middle Eastern capitals—including Riyadh—to discuss the economic portion of the Administration’s Middle East peace plan.”

link


One such concern is the administration’s rejection of advice from lawyers, who warned that its plans to sell nuclear technology violated the Atomic Energy Act, designed to safeguard against the unchecked proliferation of atomic weapons and materials. Another is the brazen and unethical self-dealing by figures close to Trump, who sought to profit from the Saudi deals — including disgraced former national security adviser Michael Flynn and Tom Barrack, the real estate executive and Trump pal who ran the inaugural committee (now also under investigation by federal prosecutors).

According to the interim report, Flynn signed on as “advisor” to a firm known as IP3, which the Washington Post’s Paul Waldman accurately described as an “all-star team” of retired generals and diplomats pushing to build nukes in Saudi. This IP3 outfit recruited Flynn while he was serving as a campaign adviser to Trump, and he continued that role, despite the obvious conflict of interest, after he entered the White House. Others on Trump’s national security staff joined with Flynn to promote the Saudi nuclear sales, sparking conflict with officials who objected both on policy and legal grounds.

As soon as Trump was inaugurated, the IP3 group started pushing him to appoint Barrack as a “special representative” of the U.S. government to “implement the plan.” At the same time, Barrack was considering an investment in Westinghouse Electric, one of the world’s largest builders of nuclear plants. Assisting him was Rick Gates — who had worked for Paul Manafort and ended up with a guilty plea and a cooperation agreement with the Office of Special Counsel.

Let’s pause here to think hard about the wisdom of constructing dozens of nuclear plants, with their potential for terrorist exploitation, in the same country that sent forth the 9/11 hijackers — never mind its recent misadventures in Yemen and its brutal murder of an American resident and Washington Post journalist, Jamal Khashoggi. It is incomprehensible that any American president would consider turning over the most lethal technology to the Saudis, with their aggressive brand of radicalized Wahhabi Islam.

But leaving aside the peril to world peace, there are billions to be made here. And that may be what matters most to the inhabitants of the Trump White House.

In that connection, the interim report notes a fascinating timeline, which begins with a holding company called Brookfield Asset Management acquiring Westinghouse Electric for $4.6 billion in January 2018. (Of course, Westinghouse Electric would benefit hugely from the IP3 plan to build those Saudi nukes.) And just seven months later, Brookfield Asset Management purchased a 99-year lease on 666 Fifth Avenue — the famous Manhattan tower whose $1.8 billion in debt had nearly ruined Jared Kushner’s family company, which owned it.

Brookfield’s decision to bail out the Kushners by paying for that overpriced lease upfront puzzled observers when the company first announced its purchase. After so many other potential investors had passed on that bad deal, why did Brookfield bite?

Perhaps now we will find out.

link


Attempts to transfer sensitive nuclear technology to a foreign country in violation of section 123 of the Atomic Energy Act of 1954 meets the definition of Espionage.
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Re: Trump attempts transfer of nuclear tech to Saudi Arabia

Unread postby Cog » Sat 02 Mar 2019, 05:01:59

The Saudis are allowed, just like any other country in the world, the peaceful use of nuclear energy. The benefits to American companies selling this technology instead of Chinese or Russian companies is enormous.

More anonymous sources and fake news. I see Cid has no problem with Iranians continuing this nuclear program to include a weapons program. Pallets of cash delivered by Obama to the Iranians buys a lot of silence from the left.
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Re: Trump attempts transfer of nuclear tech to Saudi Arabia

Unread postby Cog » Sat 02 Mar 2019, 05:21:10

From another news source not quite as Anti-Trump in nature. The controls will be in place so this nuclear technology can only be used for peaceful purposes. Its not slanted to bash Trump so I'm not surprised that Cid didn't post it. The Saudi's are going to buy the technology from someone. As an American, I want it bought from American companies because its a MAGA thing to do.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/16/brouill ... lding.html

A representative of the United States government said Saturday that it would not help Saudi Arabia develop nuclear technology without guarantees that it would only be used for civilian purposes.

Saudi Arabia has put the U.S. on a shortlist with China, Russia and others to bid for nuclear power projects in the country. Washington sees Saudi Arabia as a big customer of American nuclear expertise and hardware, but lawmakers from both U.S. political parties are demanding a deal be based on tough controls.

Section 123 of the United States Atomic Energy Act of 1954, titled "Cooperation With Other Nations," sets an agreement for cooperation as a prerequisite for nuclear deals between the U.S. and any other nation. Under a "123 measure," any U.S. nuclear deal with Saudi Arabia would prohibit routes toward the making of nuclear weapons by banning enrichment of uranium or the reprocessing of plutonium.


Speaking to CNBC's Hadley Gamble at the Munich Security Conference on Saturday, the U.S. Deputy Energy Secretary Dan Brouillette, said such an agreement was imperative to any nuclear deal with Riyadh.

"We won't allow them to bypass 123 if they want to have civilian nuclear power that includes U.S. nuclear technologies."

On Sunday, Saudi Arabian Prince Turki Al-Faisal responded directly to Brouillette's words, saying the country had more options than just U.S. technology.

"Well the nuclear energy market is open. It is not just the United States that is providing nuclear technology," he told CNBC's Hadley Gamble in Munich.

"We have France, we have Russia, we have China. We have our friends in Pakistan and in other places as well, so if they want to remove themselves from that market, well, that's up to them."

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Re: Trump attempts transfer of nuclear tech to Saudi Arabia

Unread postby Cid_Yama » Sat 02 Mar 2019, 08:34:23

You really are a moron. ANY transfer of nuclear technology to another country requires approval of Congress. After meeting resistance from Congress, the Trump Administration COVERTLY continued their plan to do the transfer anyway. That's called Espionage.

Saudi Arabia has no need for nuclear energy, duh. The only use they would have for reactors, would be the manufacture of nuclear weapons.

All of the Intelligence agencies of the United States and our European Allies say that Iran remains in compliance with the Iran nuclear deal.

KaiserJeep wrote:Look, you are applying Western and Christian behaviors and attitudes to [fundamentalist] Islam. 15 of the 19 terrorist assholes on 9/11/2001 were Saudi Arabians who practiced Wahhabism (i.e. fundamentalist Islam). Just because YOU wouldn't blow the world up does not mean that THEY would not. As a matter of fact, I believe that they WOULD, just as soon as they gain the means to do so. Nor would they consider it crazy or an undesirable thing to do. For them it would be a necessary, joyful act, for which they would be rewarded in the afterlife.


Anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together can see why you do NOT want Saudi Arabia to have nuclear reactors. Which is why Congress would NEVER approve such a deal.

By the way, the Congressional Committee on Oversight and Reform, is not an anonymous source.
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Re: Trump attempts transfer of nuclear tech to Saudi Arabia

Unread postby Cog » Sat 02 Mar 2019, 09:36:23

Cid for being a Republican, you don't know jack about trade deals. The business of America is business. You completely avoid the issue that someone is going to sell the nuclear reactors to Saudi. If not us the Chinese or Russians. You going to trust them with oversight? I thought your side hated Russia nowadays. There wasn't anything covert about Trump's administration efforts to deal with Saudis for reactors. In the article I linked the administration official spoke openly about the desire. Just because your new Democrat controlled House committee is having a case of the vapors about it doesn't mean squat.

What you fail to understand about Trump is he is about American companies and American jobs. Even when he failed to reach a deal with North Korea to get rid of their nuclear weapons, he was signing a $20 billion dollar deal with Vietnam to buy Boeing planes. Your fake news media didn't mention that one.
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Re: Trump attempts transfer of nuclear tech to Saudi Arabia

Unread postby Cid_Yama » Sat 02 Mar 2019, 09:55:57

Recent press accounts indicate that the effort to provide Saudi Arabia with sensitive U.S.
nuclear technology has shifted to Secretary Rick Perry at the Department of Energy, although the
White House—and Mr. Kushner—allegedly remain directly involved. In fact, the President is
reported to be directly engaged in the effort, maintaining contact with IP3 about the plans and
expressing his support for the transfer of nuclear technology to Saudi Arabia. These reports also
indicate that Saudi Arabia is refusing to agree to prohibitions on enriching uranium and
processing plutonium similar to those agreed to by other countries in the region.

In February 2018, it was reported: “The administration is considering permitting Saudi
Arabia to enrich and reprocess uranium as part of a deal that would allow Westinghouse
Electric Co. and other American companies to build nuclear reactors in the Middle East
kingdom.”28

There is now serious, bipartisan concern with the Trump Administration’s efforts to
transfer sensitive U.S. nuclear technology to Saudi Arabia.

For example, on October 31, 2018, Republican Senators Marco Rubio, Todd Young,
Cory Gardner, Rand Paul, and Dean Heller sent a letter to President Trump urging him to
“suspend talks related to a potential civil nuclear cooperation agreement between the United
States and Saudi Arabia” due to “serious concerns about the transparency, accountability, and
judgment of current decision makers in Saudi Arabia.” They explained:

We remain concerned that the Saudi Government has refused, for many years, to
consider any agreement that includes so-called “Gold Standard” requirements against
pursuing technologies to enrich uranium and reprocess plutonium-laden spent nuclear
fuel.47

Executive Summary of the Interim Report


What you Banana Republicans don't seem to understand, is that the Rule of Law and Common Sense MUST override 'Business is Business'. Otherwise you end up with a corrupt cesspool that is a danger to everyone.

Real Republicans know better. Corruption and Criminal Enterprises destroy the business environment where transactions take place. If Trade is harmed, you don't have business. Just the strong feeding on the weak, where there is no point in producing anything.
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Re: Trump attempts transfer of nuclear tech to Saudi Arabia

Unread postby Cog » Sat 02 Mar 2019, 10:14:04

Elijah Cummings(D) I thought I smelled the partisan stench of that report. The man is as dumb as a bag of hammers. He proved that with the Cohen hearings. What are the names of the whistleblowers? I want to know if they are stay behind Obama people like what still infest the FBI and CIA.

This is just more partisan fluff intended to stir up the uninformed. The Trump administration isn't trying to circumvent the law here. This so called report is like reading a Buzzfeed news report. But it does point out something important. The Democrats are so filled with Trump hate they will destroy American business at the cost of American jobs to defeat his agenda.
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Re: Trump attempts transfer of nuclear tech to Saudi Arabia

Unread postby dissident » Sat 02 Mar 2019, 11:29:07

Hysteria over North Korean nukes but zero care about terrorist central from getting even the precursor tech. Compartmentalized, propaganda-generated thinking at its most brazen. The US always "worries" about dual use supplies (recall the ban on chlorine supplies to Iraq which resulted in lack of water treatment and widespread disease). But in the case of its protectorate, terrorist central, it does not care.

Only US politicians think that they create reality. They can behave like they are doing this, but they are only jumping around like retarded chimps.
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Re: Trump attempts transfer of nuclear tech to Saudi Arabia

Unread postby evilgenius » Sat 02 Mar 2019, 13:07:54

Is it too dangerous to exploit nuclear power in order to electrify the world? It seems like there is a two fold danger; that of weapons, and that of old plants that fall into a failed state of maintenance. Maybe the newer kinds of reactors would mitigate both of those worries? What kind of tech do the Saudis want? I think they have wanted, on and off, a nuclear program in the past. When it didn't come easy they seemed to give up on it. I don't know if that was because they were easily bribed off of that plan by cagey Western politicians, or if their own scientists put the stall on their plans, or if it was for some other reason. If this story is true, it looks like they are in the market for another round at an easy path to it. I wonder what it would take to bribe them off of it again? The last thing you want introduced into the Arab/Israeli conflict, to cite a worst case scenario coming from easy to buy nuclear weapons technology in the region, would be something vastly destructive that doesn't need to cross any checkpoints because of the range of its destructiveness, say in East Jerusalem.
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