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THE Democrat Thread Pt. 3

A forum for discussion of regional topics including oil depletion but also government, society, and the future.

Re: THE Democrat Thread Pt. 3

Unread postby Pops » Thu 03 Oct 2019, 16:42:22

What?
or which?
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
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Re: THE Democrat Thread Pt. 3

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 04 Oct 2019, 07:59:39

“R-life” was the most recent. I think I intuited what you meant but was not at all sure.

Commenting not criticizing.
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Re: THE Democrat Thread Pt. 3

Unread postby Pops » Fri 04 Oct 2019, 09:22:50

Yeah, I'm mostly talking to myself here so I use shorthand (maybe I should post on malthusia instead, LOL)

if you look at the political quiz plots, some Ds are indistinguishable from Rs, HRC was slightly to the right of campaign-trump in 2016.

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The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
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Re: THE Democrat Thread Pt. 3

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 04 Oct 2019, 09:55:33

Right, and I’m polar opposite, down in the lower left quadrant.

I’ve no one to pick from that reflects my inclinations.

Perhaps that’s why I’m less upset about Trump, I don’t see any substantial difference between him than Hillary/Obama.

There are good things about Trump.
* He has not engaged in expanded military maneuvers
* He may be wrecking the economy, which is the best way to slow global warming, so he might be the most “green” candidate, just not for trying
* he is screwing with the established power alignments, disrupting them
* slightly slowing immigration, even if for other than my reasons it’s still moving in my desired direction.

I think Hillary would have been moving in the opposite direction on all of these points.

One thing I find continually entertaining is how so many here caterwaul about climate change but then desire a strong and expanding economy. Another conundrum we can’t come to grips with.
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Re: THE Democrat Thread Pt. 3

Unread postby Pops » Fri 04 Oct 2019, 10:24:21

Newfie wrote:Right, and I’m polar opposite, down in the lower left quadrant.

I’ve no one to pick from that reflects my inclinations.

Perhaps that’s why I’m less upset about Trump, I don’t see any substantial difference between him than Hillary/Obama.

Unfortunately for you and me the US is (or at least has been) a center-right and pretty authoritarian country, representatives reflect that to a lesser or outrageous extent. Clinton / obama/ biden / HRC are "Third Way" candidates who (a lot like outcast searcher) preface their every right-leaning policy remark with "I'm a moderate, but..."

I'll give trump one thing, he'll instigate a buttload of new laws regarding presidential power, DOJ independence, "businessmen" in government. Not to mention a big backlash to his gutting of science, state dept, EPA... I'd not be surprised if the next president doesn't call for all national candidates to have security clearance, release tax returns. divest business. Maybe a strange thing for a anti-authoritarian to say, but this guys multipe assertions of "absolute authority" scares the crap out of me. Has any other president even said those words?
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
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Re: THE Democrat Thread Pt. 3

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 04 Oct 2019, 12:00:03

Said those words? Surely in private, just not in public.
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Re: THE Democrat Thread Pt. 3

Unread postby jedrider » Fri 04 Oct 2019, 12:48:39

Yes, the good thing about the Trump Presidency is that it has shown how broken our system is.

The bad thing is that we are still unsure how to fix the system, well, some want our system broken, evidently, or we would not be in this situation.
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Re: THE Democrat Thread Pt. 3

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Fri 04 Oct 2019, 13:40:15

Pops wrote:Wall street says they'll vote for trump if Warren is nominated...
Hooray!

We need a clear distinction between the parties, the R-Lite version of clinton/obama politics that embraces the entities whose entire reason for being is to profit and protection. Liz is a too redistribution-y for me but I'll take it in return for standing up to their money.

If for the far left, the proper amount of redistrubiton wasn't always "more please", I would tend to be in agreement with you.

Making the economic policy based primarily on something for nothing is NOT a good thing. The wealthy already pay a huge proportion of the US income tax. And the same for death taxes, even after all the income taxes.

I'm all for her tackling things like the banking lobby. If the rich "should pay more", then it should be higher income tax rates, not a flat confiscation of wealth scheme, regardless of income. Over time, that's simply theft.

Naturally the masses love it because THEIR ox isn't being gored, but that doesn't make it right.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: THE Democrat Thread Pt. 3

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Fri 04 Oct 2019, 13:44:00

Pops wrote:
Newfie wrote:Right, and I’m polar opposite, down in the lower left quadrant.

I’ve no one to pick from that reflects my inclinations.

Perhaps that’s why I’m less upset about Trump, I don’t see any substantial difference between him than Hillary/Obama.

Unfortunately for you and me the US is (or at least has been) a center-right and pretty authoritarian country, representatives reflect that to a lesser or outrageous extent. Clinton / obama/ biden / HRC are "Third Way" candidates who (a lot like outcast searcher) preface their every right-leaning policy remark with "I'm a moderate, but..."

I'll give trump one thing, he'll instigate a buttload of new laws regarding presidential power, DOJ independence, "businessmen" in government. Not to mention a big backlash to his gutting of science, state dept, EPA... I'd not be surprised if the next president doesn't call for all national candidates to have security clearance, release tax returns. divest business. Maybe a strange thing for a anti-authoritarian to say, but this guys multipe assertions of "absolute authority" scares the crap out of me. Has any other president even said those words?

Well, I'll certainly agree that a lot of supposed rules should be clearly coded into laws and regulations, so they can be followed and enforced. The fact that they're not and Trump can get away with so much shows the clown-car nature of the system.

Oh, and what's good for POTUS is good for all of congress, re special rules, special priveleges, insider trading, and all the rest.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: THE Democrat Thread Pt. 3

Unread postby Pops » Fri 04 Oct 2019, 14:38:56

Outcast_Searcher wrote:I'm all for her tackling things like the banking lobby. If the rich "should pay more", then it should be higher income tax rates, not a flat confiscation of wealth scheme, regardless of income. Over time, that's simply theft.

Naturally the masses love it because THEIR ox isn't being gored, but that doesn't make it right.

I don't see how the wealth tax can work for large wealth. It is obviously a legitimate thing for the rabble because I pay a wealth tax every year on my property tax statement. But residential is pretty easy to value. As trump said in a rare moment of candor, his property values move based on his whim.
Obviously you can't base a wealth tax on income, even down here in the slum one can make lots of money rehabing houses and pay no tax on the profit as long as they hold them for 2 years as their primary residence — or so I've heard.

Back in the day Henry Ford upped his pay because he could not keep workers at the grueling pace the line set. Absenteeism and turnover were killing him. I saw a show last night on the K'nex toy factory. The spokesman bragged about how his company was the model for US jobs, he meant "no jobs" because there was hardly a person in sight, robotic arms as far as you could see. The alternative he said was to offshore the jobs.

This is the thing modern ownership has to confront, you can't offshore and mechanise forever or you'll have no customers able to pay for your product. This isn't a D thing, people switched to trump because the Ds ignored them. People are pissed because all the increase in productivity has accrued to the ownership and the excess workers have been fired. Owners can either share the profit voluntarily or it will be shared for them.
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
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Re: THE Democrat Thread Pt. 3

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 04 Oct 2019, 15:57:05

The Democrats are in the wrong side of the immigration issue.

No matter how you look at it if you truly understand climate change then you know that the USA should be looking to reduce our footprint. As it is we are feeding a big chunk of the world but doing it at the cost of depleting our soil and water and fossil oil reserves.

A truly Green Deal would strive to bring the USA towards being self sustaining. And that would mean to reduce consumption across the board and also to pull back in exporting our finite resources; principally water.

Making the USA self sustaining would mean reducing population down to about 150 million, or so I’ve been told. Sounds about right considering our footprint and that it does not include resource depletion.

And this is where things get really tricky between the R’s and D’s, although the D’s scream louder about climate change they do not always promote the most reasonable approach. Sometimes the R’s manage, despite their best efforts, to get ahead of them.

Very discouraging.
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Re: THE Democrat Thread Pt. 3

Unread postby Pops » Fri 04 Oct 2019, 16:39:42

Newfie wrote:The Democrats are in the wrong side of the immigration issue.
...
A truly Green Deal would strive to bring the USA towards being self sustaining. And that would mean to reduce consumption across the board and also to pull back in exporting our finite resources; principally water.

Making the USA self sustaining would mean reducing population down to about 150 million, or so I’ve been told. Sounds about right considering our footprint and that it does not include resource depletion.

Every branch of my family, that I've traced, has been here since the 1600s, that means my people were here killing off the natives well before most of you other newcomers. LOL

I'm not sure the rationale for increasing immigration, opening the border, eliminating border patrol or some of the other things some of the Ds are for, actually they seem designed more to increase trumps bottom line and walmart's top line. I guess it is just opposition to trump.

Here is what Liz says:
“Elizabeth believes we should expand legal immigration. But we should also put American workers first by ensuring that workers already here get the first opportunity to fill any available positions. We should empower workers, not employers, by coupling any expansion of legal immigration with real accountability on employers who break the rules, exploit workers, or don’t adhere to basic labor standards” (Source: Campaign email to NPR)

Damn, I've said almost exactly that!
I've also said before that trump is doing something similar to what Bill clinton did in stealing the other party's thunder. Confronting the trade deals, China, immigration, offshoring... in rhetoric at least, is right in the Ds, labor party wheelhouse.

No party or politician since Jimmy has ever broached degrowth, austerity, depopulation, and I'll wager you and I never do. It's bad for business
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
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Re: THE Democrat Thread Pt. 3

Unread postby Pops » Fri 04 Oct 2019, 17:07:44

Liz and Bern split $50m in individual contributions while eschewing the fundraiser curcuit, beating Joe who only raised $15m from the corporate fundraiser circuit.

This makes me really happy. I'm sure joe is toast now.

https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/ ... undraising
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Re: THE Democrat Thread Pt. 3

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 04 Oct 2019, 17:36:15

You also noted how automation is putting folks out of work. So we are increasing immigration because?????
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Re: THE Democrat Thread Pt. 3

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 04 Oct 2019, 18:30:27

Pops wrote:This makes me really happy. I'm sure joe is toast now.


Yup. From the start I never thought Joe had a chance.

Joe has always been a terrible campaigner, and Trump bringing up the Ukraine scandal damaged Joe beyond recovery.

I haven't heard many Ds rushing to Biden's defense and saying its OK for high level government officials like Biden to leverage appointments for their children to the board of directors in foreign countries where they have influence. Its similar to the kind of foreign corruption that Hillary was involved in, and just like Hillary it damaged Biden to the point where he is going to lose. After the impeachment inquiry was announced I wondered if some Ds might hate Trump so much that they would hold their nose and start backing Biden just to get at Trump, but not even all the Trump hatred in the D party is going to be enough to help Biden get the D nomination.

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Old White Joe never had a chance.....especially after Trump brought up the millions of dollars paid to Hunter for doing nothing

Cheers!
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Re: THE Democrat Thread Pt. 3

Unread postby careinke » Sat 05 Oct 2019, 00:16:16

Pops wrote:Biden's toast. Trump is toast too, he just called on both china and ukraine to do exactly what the Ds are impeaching him for, but at least he took down joe.

So the question is who'd the R lite candidate? I like Amy tho she's not my ideological match, I'd vote for her. I don't know what Kamala is about, Pete seems smart but he's too young for me, I dislike Beto, I don't really know the others.


I'm thinking Trump wins in a Reagan Landslide, primarily due the disgust with congress, and their constant crying wolf. Heck I may even vote for him this time, just because it would make a statement against our current corrupt system.

On the other hand, Yang is the first Dim in a long time that has peaked my interest. Go figure, a Dim that understands math! His economic policies would be fun to try out. I'd give them an even chance of improving the present system.
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Re: THE Democrat Thread Pt. 3

Unread postby Pops » Sat 05 Oct 2019, 09:21:05

Newfie wrote:You also noted how automation is putting folks out of work. So we are increasing immigration because?????

I don't know, O deported lots of people. I assume it is a reaction to trump, kind of the point wasn't it?

OK so, turns out, 6 in 10 people say immigrants are good for the country, only 28% say they are bad.

"Six-in-ten Americans (62%) say immigrants strengthen the country “because of their hard work and talents,” while about a quarter (28%) say immigrants burden the country by taking jobs, housing and health care."

"Americans were divided on future levels of immigration. A quarter said immigration to the U.S. should be decreased (24%), while one-third (38%) said immigration should be kept at its present level and almost another third (32%) said immigration should be increased."

I don't think most people think overpopulation is an existential environmental threat (I don't think they think about it at all). Of that 24% who want a decrease, I'm pretty sure carrying capacity, environmental degradation, climate change aren't on their list.

Personally, I've known lots more Mexicans than other minorities, I find they work hard, are family oriented, actual Christians, and make good loyal friends. I've known assholes and punks too but what else is new. My folks were dust bowl refugees so I grew up feeling more like an immigrant than native and I suppose that colors my view.
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Re: THE Democrat Thread Pt. 3

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 05 Oct 2019, 14:08:41

The point isn’t what people think or that Immigrants are good/bad, it’s that the USA can sustain only so many.

Trying to stay close to the physical reality here.
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Re: THE Democrat Thread Pt. 3

Unread postby dissident » Sat 05 Oct 2019, 17:10:07

Newfie wrote:The point isn’t what people think or that Immigrants are good/bad, it’s that the USA can sustain only so many.

Trying to stay close to the physical reality here.


A voice of sanity in the SJW shitstorm. Any country has an upper bound on how much immigrants it can absorb without producing economic and social disruption. This has nothing to do with drowning Syrian boys and the fact that immigrants are humans. SJWs never look at the problem from the right perspective. It is all about their feels and dogma.
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Re: THE Democrat Thread Pt. 3

Unread postby Pops » Sun 06 Oct 2019, 12:04:40

Newfie wrote:The point isn’t what people think or that Immigrants are good/bad, it’s that the USA can sustain only so many.

Trying to stay close to the physical reality here.

The point IS what people think. Rs believe they are bad. Ds are effectively the reactionaries now, so (just like the Rs with Obama) will oppose everything trump.

Notwithstanding the fact I kneejerk towards a protectionist bunker mentality, we should understand it's a minority of a minority view. And just to ground ourselves, the "physical reality" is the US can feed 2-3 times the current population easily. We'll need to worry about going the way of the Irish before we run out of land, as you know, during the Irish potato famine owners were exporting record amounts of wheat while the peasants starved eating blighted potatoes.

trump didn't run on sustainability, just the opposite. He siad Mexicans are rapists and drug dealers, that's the argument Rs bought. As I said before, Obama deported lots without much fuss but trumps outrageousness radicalized Ds toward unlimited immigration. This is now set in stone as partisan I'm afraid. trump saw the crack in which to drive his wedge and like any good demagogue he exploited it starting the first day. Now it is unresolvable, the next D POTUS can't plead "sustainability" because even more than before immigration is seen as a partisan, racist issue entirely.

I couldn't find anything about americans being worried about sustainability wrt immigration. Here is Gallup poll history on the environment, no mention of sustainability, food, farm, carry or even population. If you could cross tab the wall people with the environmentally concerned people, I'm gonna bet there is little overlap.

Ds are much more concerned with the environment, they think about recycling, regulation, what they buy, but not overpopulation — it's so 70s. Not one person volunteered in that Gallup poll that something they do to protect the environment is have fewer kids.

To conclude my sunday sermon, pretending that sustainability is the justification for cruelty at the border is about as disingenuous and it gets. trumps entire domestic policy is to free corporations to rape the commons, and eliminate taxes on the rapers.

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The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
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