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Self annihilation of West by embracement of barbarism

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Re: Self annihilation of West by embracement of barbarism

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Sat 03 Nov 2018, 15:59:20

Meantime Germans are being replaced by foreigners.
42% in age group 0-6 are of migrant origin:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwyevHwUlKQ
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Re: Self annihilation of West by embracement of barbarism

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 04 Nov 2018, 07:54:11

And now Poland is backing out of the UN “migration” plan. I don’t know what “the plans” called for but note it’s a “migration” plan, not immigration. Is that significant.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/10 ... ations/amp

Ah, here it is.

https://www.iom.int/global-compact-migration

All very nice words. The problem is it would seem it does not discuss any limits to migration. How to say when enough is enough.
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Re: Self annihilation of West by embracement of barbarism

Unread postby evilgenius » Sun 04 Nov 2018, 10:42:46

There comes a point where discussing the impact of colonialism is pertinent. Britain, for instance, has historical ties with India and Pakistan. Those ties mean that families straddle multiple countries. How much immigration, once a former colony has claimed independence, is proper when a portion of a family resides in the former colonizer? If there is a principle, how deeply into a family should a policy go in addressing it?

I spoke about culture before. I said that it is any country's best line of defense when encountering barbarism. As far as I can tell, the issue with Muslims is whether they adhere to secular law over any sort of religious law or custom. Things like honor killings, as I understand, are a result of custom and not some law, for the most part. They are usually done in reference to family shame. This brings up a principle that has developed under secular law in the West, that of equality. While it used to be in the West that women were considered some form of chattel, this is no longer the case. About a century ago the West, for the most part, gave women the right to vote.

The right to vote seemingly comes with an understanding of personhood that should protect a woman from slander. And not just the slander directed at her from some outsider, but from her own family. Something about it sets her apart from the family group in that she is no longer a possession and insults under the law ought to end with her. She should be free from acting in accordance with the manner that shame would induce in her. If she is slighted she has to take action to defend herself. The law can step in, but mostly matters are considered civil. It requires a person to recognize and stand up for themselves. She also is separated from the family in such a way that she is responsible for her own success or failure as an adult. Whether the right to vote gives her all rights to pursue that success is debatable.

There is a great amount of misogynistic jealousy in every Western country. Mostly, that jealousy is birthed in the chattel centered way of thinking about women. When Muslim men treat women the same way, they are not alone. The mindsets are quite similar. What Christianity and Islam are like without the impact of secular law influencing them is actually somewhat barbaric when viewed from a modern perspective. Yes, Christianity did grow up along with Western Civilization. It was not only an influencer, but was also influenced by the struggles for power as Western Civilization developed.

Inside of Christianity there were debates about whether orthodoxy at the time was really what the religion was about. I don't know how briskly the same sort of thing goes on amongst Muslims who have immigrated to the West, but I do think it goes on. I work with many Muslims, and have done so for years, and can tell you I see it. It's not talked about publicly. But you do get a recognition from some of a secular understanding of the personhood of all people, regardless of their affiliation. Yes, you will also see certain rude behaviors and attitudes no doubt related to an understanding that no Muslim can be inferior to an infidel, therefore any slight they've given to a non-Muslim was not to a person with standing. Oddly, because it suggests a Western influence, they do treat Muslim women better than non-Muslim women. What I'm saying, though, is that the fault here is not with the Muslims. It is with the society they've immigrated into. Not understanding or practicing a distinct culture that makes demands of those who immigrate into a country is like a body without an immune system. Part of that culture, though, is not to root out everyone from a larger collective group, but to concentrate invective upon those individuals who actually do practice and display openly attitudes and creeds that run counter to that culture.

Getting back to families that straddle, I think that individual approach is the sort of yardstick needed. In some cases, it may be better if the parents, uncles, aunties and all sorts of cousins stay back in the home country. Those who can't adopt a Western mode of thought are more the problem than those who can't keep their bodies in check. They are the ones who tell them that it is ok. That if they act out on their impulses they aren't acting out on real people anyway. Otherwise, without those bad influences, those people have the culture to help them understand and conform. They may not pull it off with alacrity, but they could certainly do at least as well as the Christian influenced people in a society have. Like I said, there is a lot of misogyny in Western Culture. It exists amongst the Christians. We need to offer the Muslims the same sort of "understanding" that we give to those people. It might be dangerous to offer them more, though.
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Re: Self annihilation of West by embracement of barbarism

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sun 04 Nov 2018, 14:02:51

There are two Christian religious groups in Silly Valley that (relatively quietly) preach that women are subordinate to and must obey their husbands. After some thinking about the topic I have decided that I will generally identify them, they are branches of the Mormon Church and the Orthodox Christian Church, and I know about them because I had special supplimentary training from Human Resources when I managed members of these churches in my design group at my corporation (one of the Big 4 high tech companies). Note that the descriptions above could apply to at least six churches in the Valley, and you really don't know who I am speaking of.

I will say this, generalising, because the sample size in my personal experience is very small. However, the corporation had hundreds of employees from each of these churches, and I knew the HR rep who was teaching the class, and heard some insider information. Both Christian churches had - statisticly speaking - slightly higher numbers of children, and significantly (meaning well below half) the divorce rates of other churches or the (vast majority) of secular employees.

The other groups that held women to be subordinate to (or even owned by) their husbands were Muslims and several East Indian or Asian religions. These groups, especially the first generation immigrants, had significantly higher rates of divorce, and really chilling levels of domestic violence. So much so that HR was apportioning budgets among their own organization (which had to provide counseling and support to such groups) according to the religion of the emplyee (which information was collected voluntarily and for "statistical purposes only").

That's as explicit as I want to get about this topic, and I deliberately edited out the corporation name, although most of you know which one I am talking about, and probably would make pretty good guesses about the churches. The point I am attempting to make is that - although I am sure that domestic abuse of women and children is universal - it is significantly higher among Middle Eastern and Far Eastern cultural groups, and that those who measure such things consider this information to be confidential with regard to culture and religious affiliation.

My personal and anecdotal experiences of 32 years in the Silly Valley support what I said. The cultures of the individuals involved are not the same as Western or European cultures, we are not talking about racial or religious differences, except where the churches involved reflect the culture itself.
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Re: Self annihilation of West by embracement of barbarism

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sun 04 Nov 2018, 19:50:06

EnergyUnlimited wrote:...Germans are being replaced by foreigners.
42% in age group 0-6 are of migrant origin:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwyevHwUlKQ


Aren't liberal policies grand?

It may feel good today to help all those poor immigrants seeking to settle in western countries, but if current trends continue the immigrant populations will soon outnumber the original native national populations in several countries in the EU as well as in countries elsewhere.

Cheers!
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Re: Self annihilation of West by embracement of barbarism

Unread postby Cog » Sun 04 Nov 2018, 20:24:02

Welcome to Sharia law and the end of Octoberfest. Get those burkas out.
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Re: Self annihilation of West by embracement of barbarism

Unread postby careinke » Sun 04 Nov 2018, 22:11:03

Cog wrote:Welcome to Sharia law and the end of Octoberfest. Get those burkas out.


Hey I used to go to Oktoberfest in the German Embassy, Riyadh Saudi Arabia. I met the German Ambassador at some other drinking event and since my last name is German, he made sure I was invited to all the German events. :-D
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Re: Self annihilation of West by embracement of barbarism

Unread postby Cog » Mon 05 Nov 2018, 05:31:29

My experience with Germans is limited to Lutherans up in Wisconsin doing polka at weddings. They can throw a pretty good party. There are some big boned German girls up there.
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Re: Self annihilation of West by embracement of barbarism

Unread postby evilgenius » Tue 06 Nov 2018, 12:15:36

I wonder how much help there is out there for a Muslim girl who is looking at life and thinking that when she becomes a woman she will want to do things differently than her family wants? Specifically, I wonder about grants and loans to get into college or career school. Doing that is a lot easier if you can go the traditional Western way and live at home while you prepare to launch yourself. It's a lot harder if you have to pay rent and juggle that, as those who find they have to leave their home in order to become what they desire will have to. The same goes for anyone else, males included, who find themselves in that situation. It's just that the plight of Muslim girls seeking some form of self direction and independence comes to mind. There are jobs that require some level of humility that many of them can do in order to get past that sticking point. This is one of those places where minimum wage is crucial to a Western culture. It has to be high enough to allow for a person to make it on their own, to launch themselves. It doesn't have to be so high as to guarantee what their own hard work is supposed to bring to them as they use that launching point to become something.
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Re: Self annihilation of West by embracement of barbarism

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Tue 06 Nov 2018, 14:01:32

With respect, I disagree about the minimum wage. The minimum wage is for part time employees, typically teenagers, and for the express purpose of teaching them how to behave while working, and also for building a work history that demonstrates that they are worth a real job. If a teenager who lives at home can acquire gas money with his part time job, that's enough pay.

Minimum wage jobs are not intended for non-English speaking, possibly illegal immigrants, or runaway teenagers.
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Re: Self annihilation of West by embracement of barbarism

Unread postby evilgenius » Tue 06 Nov 2018, 21:03:26

KaiserJeep wrote:With respect, I disagree about the minimum wage. The minimum wage is for part time employees, typically teenagers, and for the express purpose of teaching them how to behave while working, and also for building a work history that demonstrates that they are worth a real job. If a teenager who lives at home can acquire gas money with his part time job, that's enough pay.

Minimum wage jobs are not intended for non-English speaking, possibly illegal immigrants, or runaway teenagers.

I didn't say anything about non-English speaking or illegal immigrants per se. I suppose I could be talking about either run away or emancipated teens. My point is that the family is not always the great bastion that people claim it is. I gave an example where it isn't that is related to the thread topic. It's very nice if it is. What a wonderful thing to have normal parents. A lot of people, though, don't have normal parents.

What the minimum wage does is set a standard. You wouldn't believe how many people are just a couple of bucks above that standard, I guess. Anyway, the issue is about opportunity. Specifically, equality of opportunity. Equality of opportunity is very important in the context of battling extremism via the power of your culture. If you don't care about it, then you expose yourself.

Minimum wage has to be set so that people can make some kind of start, even if it is set so that the level a few bucks above it is the target. They need to be able to pay their bills and get to where they can understand what other kinds of opportunity there is out there, like grants and loans to get ahead. If the minimum wage is too low, like if you are only thinking about teens and ignoring all of the other people within the economy who don't have freedom of movement out of bad positions, then equality of opportunity suffers. Because what business will pay anyone at that level any more unless unemployment is very low? If unemployment is that low, then almost always the Fed will step in and raise interest rates. They don't do it with a mind toward this group of people, but it effects them more greatly than it does the target level of employee they gauge to see whether they have gotten rates balanced.
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Re: Self annihilation of West by embracement of barbarism

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Wed 07 Nov 2018, 02:16:59

I think you missed my point about the real purpose of the minimum wage being to instruct teens who are working part time in the basics of having a job. It's really not for anybody working a 40 hour week.

If you want to have different minimums for adults with full time jobs and benefits, say that.
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Re: Self annihilation of West by embracement of barbarism

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 07 Nov 2018, 05:52:48

KJ,

I like your interpretation of the minimum wage, but I don’t know if any legal language that supports it. Can you point me there?
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Re: Self annihilation of West by embracement of barbarism

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Wed 07 Nov 2018, 06:32:07

No legal language here. Just words I recall from the last minimum wage debate in California.
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Re: Self annihilation of West by embracement of barbarism

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 07 Nov 2018, 07:13:41

KaiserJeep wrote:No legal language here. Just words I recall from the last minimum wage debate in California.


OK, and thanks. I’ve not heard that argument before. I’ve always heard it described as a minimum living wage.
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Re: Self annihilation of West by embracement of barbarism

Unread postby Tanada » Wed 07 Nov 2018, 09:30:35

Michigan had a two tier minimum wage for decades, kids under 18 got paid less than 'adults'.
I should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, write, balance accounts, build a wall, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, pitch manure, program a computer, cook, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
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Re: Self annihilation of West by embracement of barbarism

Unread postby evilgenius » Wed 07 Nov 2018, 10:24:23

A two tier system makes sense, as long as it comes with a maximum number of hours that can be worked over a period which would prevent it being used adversely to the intention for which it was designed. For every coffee or ice cream shop owner who relies upon teenagers to fill in the summer busy season there are quite a few Walmarts that employ people at around $10 an hour, an amount that reflects a distance from the minimum wage, to stock their shelves. Over the course of my life I've known some of those Walmart workers. They tend to be pretty normal people. They raise kids. They rent. They know what they can get from the system. They do their job very well. Often they grasp at straws, other opportunities elsewhere which probably won't pan out, because they know there isn't any real future for them where they are. They like that nice, steady job, but can very well see that it doesn't have a future. That $10 will remain the same $10 no matter how long they go on because the minimum wage is not going to increase by much, thus pushing their pay up in relation to it. In reality, the minimum wage traps people if it is not adjusted over time. I think that is partly due to our winners and losers approach to life in our version of capitalism. It's very easy for a voter to reject a minimum wage increase because they can say to themselves it is designed to cushion the losers. People don't want to give concessions to losers. Likewise, there is a lack of pressure upon representatives to increase it, especially in the face of the kind of lobbying that businesses like Walmart bring upon them.
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