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Self annihilation of West by embracement of barbarism

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Re: Self annihilation of West by embracement of barbarism

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 22 Oct 2018, 17:07:07

Would be great to have some context for the video. What the heck is going on?
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Re: Self annihilation of West by embracement of barbarism

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 22 Oct 2018, 17:42:37

Out of the blue a friend sent me this quote.

Excerpt from Beyond Good and Evil, CHAPTER IX, Friedrich Nietzsche.
WHAT IS NOBLE?

257. …Let us acknowledge unprejudicedly how every higher civilization hitherto has ORIGINATED! Men with a still natural nature, barbarians in every terrible sense of the word, men of prey, still in possession of unbroken strength of will and desire for power, threw themselves upon weaker, more moral, more peaceful races (perhaps trading or cattle-rearing communities), or upon old mellow civilizations in which the final vital force was flickering out in brilliant fireworks of wit and depravity. At the commencement, the noble caste was always the barbarian caste: their superiority did not consist first of all in their physical, but in their psychical power--they were more COMPLETE men (which at every point also implies the same as "more complete beasts").
--
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Re: Self annihilation of West by embracement of barbarism

Unread postby evilgenius » Mon 22 Oct 2018, 23:32:14

EnergyUnlimited wrote:@evilgenius,
Our argument is about ability of given nation to build advanced society, or as *you* have called it "capitalist economy" or about ability of *average* member of other nation to integrate on the West and fruitfully contribute to civil life here, support himself etc.
What would happen "in the woods" is irrelevant in this context.
It is enough to say that an unfriendly adult chimp met in the woods, assuming you are unarmed, would prove to be a formidable adversary and would almost certainly defeat you with no effort at all.
The same hold true for an 12 year old child soldier of IQ 70 and armed with AK 47.
So yes, in the woods IQ might be of little relevance (albeit many H-G tribes often have surprisingly high one, perhaps due to extensive need of planning and complicated, tricky tasks during hunting).
However in western city IQ is an all important quality realiably indicating individual's prospects.
Regarding Islam and IQ - my believes are that embracement of Islam is causing IQ of affected nation to fall down. That is because Islam is discouraging thinking, is anticompetitive etc.
Too inteligent individuals in Islam are simply persecuted by the mob and they don't tend to do well.
We are going to see this effect on the West soon enough.


Well, there aren't any chimps in the woods. Those are reserved for the metaphor of the jungle. What you have in the woods are bears. They are quite formidable, but in their natural state run from man upon encounter. The only time they don't is if they have been trained by man's trash to expect a different outcome from that which their instincts direct them. But if we consider trash, then we aren't talking about the metaphor I was suggesting. You will have to leave off of the probability of animals to come to your philosophical rescue. And I deliberately discounted my own ability. I have to walk as any man would walk. Unlike Adam, though, I am not intrinsically afraid.
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Re: Self annihilation of West by embracement of barbarism

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Tue 23 Oct 2018, 00:38:18

Newfie wrote:Would be great to have some context for the video. What the heck is going on?

Saudis are greeting their royalties, but they are only permited to shake hand with their posters.
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Re: Self annihilation of West by embracement of barbarism

Unread postby radon1 » Tue 23 Oct 2018, 05:03:19

EnergyUnlimited wrote:Modern IQ tests are designed to be "culture neutral". Another feature of such designs is that *no prior knowledge* is required to solve questions within such tests.
Modern tests *do not* include matemathical or lingual questions either. They mostly relay on recognision of abstract patterns.


How can recognition of abstract patterns be "culture neutral"? There is clear difference in the value that various cultures put into the ability to recognise abstract patterns.

Who were the people who founded first civilisations and how their apparent advanced self-organisation skills correlate with the modern IQ studies?

What about the Mowgli cases? It is well-known that past certain age a person brought up with animals cannot develop any IQ, even though him or her being a potential genius by birth.
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Re: Self annihilation of West by embracement of barbarism

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Tue 23 Oct 2018, 05:40:48

radon1 wrote:
EnergyUnlimited wrote:Modern IQ tests are designed to be "culture neutral". Another feature of such designs is that *no prior knowledge* is required to solve questions within such tests.
Modern tests *do not* include matemathical or lingual questions either. They mostly relay on recognision of abstract patterns.


How can recognition of abstract patterns be "culture neutral"? There is clear difference in the value that various cultures put into the ability to recognise abstract patterns.

Who were the people who founded first civilisations and how their apparent advanced self-organisation skills correlate with the modern IQ studies?

What about the Mowgli cases? It is well-known that past certain age a person brought up with animals cannot develop any IQ, even though him or her being a potential genius by birth.

1. Here you have something about an example of culture neutral IQ tests:
https://iqtestprep.com/cattell-culture-fair-test/
https://exploringyourmind.com/ravens-pr ... -matrices/

2. Mowgli was a fictional character.
Real Mowgli like cases are incredibly rare these days. They would not make any measurable input on nation average.

3. Peoples who founded first civilizations are gone long, long time ago so we do not have subjects for research.
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Re: Self annihilation of West by embracement of barbarism

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 23 Oct 2018, 05:48:38

Feral children. Interesting read.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feral_child
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Re: Self annihilation of West by embracement of barbarism

Unread postby radon1 » Tue 23 Oct 2018, 13:36:46

EnergyUnlimited wrote:1. Here you have something about an example of culture neutral IQ tests:

Many cultures do not put emphasis on abstract pattern recognition. Moreover, they do not view it as a sign of high intelligence, and probably even the opposite. Accordingly, the predominant social conditions put a limitation on the development of the relevant skills.

More specifically, IQ test type skills are valued in the industrialised societies, and this is where they are believed to be an indication of high intelligence.

2. Mowgli was a fictional character.
Real Mowgli like cases are incredibly rare these days. They would not make any measurable input on nation average.
The point is that social conditions are a crucial part of the development of intelligence. This is exactly the point that the proponents of the genetically predetermined IQ seek to dispute.

3. Peoples who founded first civilizations are gone long, long time ago so we do not have subjects for research.


Africa, Middle East. Aside from China, not much correlation with the IQ research.
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Re: Self annihilation of West by embracement of barbarism

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Tue 23 Oct 2018, 16:27:59

radon1 wrote:
EnergyUnlimited wrote:1. Here you have something about an example of culture neutral IQ tests:

Many cultures do not put emphasis on abstract pattern recognition. Moreover, they do not view it as a sign of high intelligence, and probably even the opposite. Accordingly, the predominant social conditions put a limitation on the development of the relevant skills.

More specifically, IQ test type skills are valued in the industrialised societies, and this is where they are believed to be an indication of high intelligence.

On the West we are not training kids in abstract pattern recognition like solving Raven's progressive matrices either.
They are usually seen first time on IQ test.
In non industrial Mongolia which is also devoid of wide spread advanced education kids are doing very well. In fact a bit better than Americans do or equally to Americans (average Mongolian IQ is 98-101 and average American is 97-98, depending of study).

2. Mowgli was a fictional character.
Real Mowgli like cases are incredibly rare these days. They would not make any measurable input on nation average.
The point is that social conditions are a crucial part of the development of intelligence. This is exactly the point that the proponents of the genetically predetermined IQ seek to dispute.

There is a window of opportunity to learn language to a standard (ending around age of 5-6). If missed it may be an uphill struggle with all cosequences.
Feral kids are also incredibly rare, surrounded by mythology, eg their *exact* stories are not really known, often from pathological families where might be already inbuilt mental problems and/or suffering from heavy trauma related to abandonment or/and living in the wild, so their development is sufficiently unusual to make them irrelevant.
On the other hand it is known and proven that children of parents of low IQ adopted and risen in high IQ families are still keeping their inherited low IQ.

3. Peoples who founded first civilizations are gone long, long time ago so we do not have subjects for research.


Africa, Middle East. Aside from China, not much correlation with the IQ research.

These peoples were living hundreds of generations ago and their mental capabilities have no relevance to mental capabilities of "modern versions" of their very distant decsendants.
It is enough to say that H-G living 10000-15000 years ago had more brain (actually about 7-10% by weight, base on skull size), so they were probably more intelligent than current folk.
So there was more brain power available in early civilization founding populations.

Mind you, Native Americans living in reserves have pretty high IQ, close to one of whites and considerably higher than American Blacks. H-G *are* intelligent.

Regarding ME- it is *my* theory that Islam is selecting against high IQ.
It glorifies retardation, is anticompetitive, discourages thinking and encourages beliving without critical thought.
Too inteligent peoples are disliked there, ostracized by the mob and often persecuted so they don't do well and are gradually phased out.
Before Islam came and during first centuries of it's existence Arabs and other affected nations could be more intelligent (hence for example Arab Golden Age was possible) but this is only my theory.
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Re: Self annihilation of West by embracement of barbarism

Unread postby radon1 » Tue 23 Oct 2018, 17:38:44

EnergyUnlimited wrote:In non industrial Mongolia which is also devoid of wide spread advanced education kids are doing very well.


Mongolia has a high literacy rate, consistently rated around 98%.[15] This is a high figure for a country that is often rated as one of the poorest in Asia. For comparison, the World Bank, which supports the above figure, puts Mongolia’s more prosperous neighbor China’s literacy rate at 91%.[16] Mongolia has benefited from compulsory primary education under the communist regime in the 20th century, continuing in similar form today.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Mongolia

GDP by sector
agriculture: 16.6%, industry: 33.1%, services: 50.3% (2011 est.)


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Mongolia
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Re: Self annihilation of West by embracement of barbarism

Unread postby dissident » Tue 23 Oct 2018, 17:43:26

The whole melting pot model for the USA is predicated on the notion that immigrants will be assimilated and contribute to society and the economy. And this is what happens. In particular, the children of immigrants lose the "IQ" differential that may have existed with their first generation immigrant parents. In order for the "genetic IQ" model to be valid, all subsequent generations of immigrants from "low IQ" countries should reflect this deficiency even if there is inter-marriage. No such data exists.
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Re: Self annihilation of West by embracement of barbarism

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Tue 23 Oct 2018, 23:19:35

The actual data says that different IQ means exist for different racial groups. I don't care particularly what you believe about the underlying cause, most theories offered are for political correctness purposes.
Image
The different mean IQ figures map to different gene groupings, which occur at different frequencies in different races.
Image
This was one of the unexpected results that came out of the HGP (Human Genome Project), fairly early on, and the decision was made (during Bill Clinton's second term) to suppress this, because it jeopardizes funding for certain Federal programs like HeadStart, which are aimed at eliminating these differences. I would speculate that if it became known that a considerable amount of government spending was aimed at eliminating differences that arise from the genes one has, there would be controversy.

BTW, the highest IQ grouping ever measured was the Askenazi Jews who have a mean IQ of 112.
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Re: Self annihilation of West by embracement of barbarism

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Wed 24 Oct 2018, 01:57:34

@radon1,
Tajikistan has even higher literacy rate than Mongolia (99.8%) and yet their mean IQ is only 87, comparable to other Muslims. This despite of Soviet communist educational efforts.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... eracy_rate
https://iq-research.info/en/average-iq-by-country
South Africa Republic has literacy rate only slightly lower (94.3%) and yet their mean IQ is 77, despite of relatively large white and asian populations which are increasing their averages.
(references above).

@dissident,
dissident wrote:In order for the "genetic IQ" model to be valid, all subsequent generations of immigrants from "low IQ" countries should reflect this deficiency even if there is inter-marriage.

Your statement does not make sense.
Base on genetic consideradions intermarriage obviously benefit lower IQ parent. Will result in more clever kids than would be otherwise.
You should also read a study about kids from low IQ parents risen by high IQ adoptive parents.
(I gave a reference in my previous reply to your post).
Hint: IQ of such kids remains low despite of better nurturing.

Regarding concept of "melting pot".
White with Far Eastern will generally work, you may even spice it up with a bit of *selected* Blacks, Mexicans or Arabs, but add too many of these and you will end up with collapsing bridges, full prisons, favelas in every city, rampant drug abuse and prostitution and all other ills already manifested in the US.
This is how magnificent empire is converting into Third World after all.
Watch and enjoy.

BTW,
K-J, thanks for your specific genetic data. They are confirming what we observe.
Regarding Jews. IMO their high mean IQ has much to do with their disrespect to others, including non Jewish Whites, who are called by Jews "goy", and essentially that means "cattle".
For an average Jew common member of White race is not an intelectual challenge and looks somewhat retarded. IQ difference of ~15 points applicable in this situation can be quickly spotted during conversation - hence disrespect.
They see it that way. On one occasion I was discussing with a Jew who was insisting that I must have some Jewish ancestry (and as per my knowledge I don't but who knows...) because my way of reasoning is considerably above "white goy" level.
Last edited by EnergyUnlimited on Wed 24 Oct 2018, 02:50:46, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Self annihilation of West by embracement of barbarism

Unread postby radon1 » Wed 24 Oct 2018, 02:15:16

KaiserJeep wrote:The actual data says that different IQ means exist for different racial groups. I don't care particularly what you believe about the underlying cause, most theories offered are for political correctness purposes.


Well, the fact that this research is apparently used to make a political statement is what makes it very suspicious. For the most of the history aside from the past few hundred years, the people on top half of the table were viewed by the people on the bottom half of the table as disorganised dumb savages, and now all of a sudden in the year 20xx a research comes out and the table turns. "We are blessed by god" changed to "We are blessed by genetics". The form changes, the substance doesn't.

Look at your own data. Why is the sample size variance so large? Who were the people that they sampled? Further, the difference between blacks and whites is 11 points. This is not a huge difference, well within a variance that a single person can produce taking multiple tests. If you believe that this is statistically significant due to averaging, then notice that in your study, the Chinese lost a commensurate number of points compared to the previous similar study by another poster. So, how reliable are these studies?

Dismissing valid inquiries as posited by "political correctness warriors" is akin to etpists dismissing everyone calling their nonsense as "industry shills".
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Re: Self annihilation of West by embracement of barbarism

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 24 Oct 2018, 06:18:01

Why they are coming is of little importance. The questions are: do we wish to allow them in? How many? For how long? Do we give them citizenship? Do we feed and pay them? For how long?

And bigger yet: How many people do we want in the USA? Do we want more or less people? How soon do we want to hit that number? How many, if any, additional kids do we want from existing children?

And why don’t we discuss this intelligently?
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Re: Self annihilation of West by embracement of barbarism

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Wed 24 Oct 2018, 06:28:00

radon1 wrote:
KaiserJeep wrote:The actual data says that different IQ means exist for different racial groups. I don't care particularly what you believe about the underlying cause, most theories offered are for political correctness purposes.


Well, the fact that this research is apparently used to make a political statement is what makes it very suspicious. For the most of the history aside from the past few hundred years, the people on top half of the table were viewed by the people on the bottom half of the table as disorganised dumb savages, and now all of a sudden in the year 20xx a research comes out and the table turns. "We are blessed by god" changed to "We are blessed by genetics". The form changes, the substance doesn't.

Look at your own data. Why is the sample size variance so large? Who were the people that they sampled? Further, the difference between blacks and whites is 11 points. This is not a huge difference, well within a variance that a single person can produce taking multiple tests. If you believe that this is statistically significant due to averaging, then notice that in your study, the Chinese lost a commensurate number of points compared to the previous similar study by another poster. So, how reliable are these studies?

Dismissing valid inquiries as posited by "political correctness warriors" is akin to etpists dismissing everyone calling their nonsense as "industry shills".


I more or less randomly picked a graphic that illustrated the differences. There were others, but all are from the academic testing done in the USA which has a white majority, and every such group measured has a more or less equal racial distributions.

Re-read your comments. You have the position "all races are equal in every respect" in your head and you seek confirmation. This is a textbook version of what is called "confirmation bias". In fact, there is virtually nothing which can be measured about humans which displays equal results over racial groups, not just intelligence. For example, nobody denies that Blacks have greater muscular strength, faster reflexes, and greater endurance than other races. They use these differences to dominate professional sports in the USA. Few US Whites or Asians have the income-earning potential of a Black athlete in the NBA or NFL, for example. Are you ready to require of the NBA and the NFL that they practice "affirmative action" until the racial distribution in major sports teams is the same as the country at large?

The very subject is not PC and probably makes you uncomfortable. The Democrats in particular are determined to meddle in the lives of US citizens until everything the various governments can possibly measure displays equal results across all races. They are willing to spend any amount of your money to achieve this "equality".

One must of course, never discuss actual measured results which dispute the pre-determined stances of the "PC Police". That would lead to dissatisfaction with the way the various governments spend money. Hence the decision by the Feds to restrict the various differences measured by the HGP and other Federally-funded studies to various professional publications in Anthropology, and not to release them publicly.

"Wrong-thinking will be promptly punished. Right-thinking will be as quickly rewarded." (From Star Trek, the episode "The Gamesters of Triskelian", January 1968.)

Newfie, reflect for one moment that although we have a Constitution and the SCOTUS has determined that all folks in this country have equal rights under it, no matter what their national origin. Howerver the same document requires border enforcement up to and including warfare to enforce those national borders, from the Federal Government, as well as immigration management services. However, some people believe that one can selectively enforce parts of the US Constitution, while ignoring other parts.

The various postures of the various political groups sometimes reach absurd proportions. As we speak, a column of invading Hispanics is slowly approaching our Southern Border. Trump has a whole spectrum of possible responses, everything from establishing a prison for these folks, to mainstreaming them all into our society, and making them wealthy using your tax money. Or he could call in an air strike and burn them all to ashes. All of these responses are within the scope of his powers and responsibilities as POTUS.

Of course, what he will actually do about the invasion is likely to be whatever favors the Republicans on November 6.
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Re: Self annihilation of West by embracement of barbarism

Unread postby radon1 » Wed 24 Oct 2018, 08:20:17

KaiserJeep wrote:You have the position "all races are equal in every respect" in your head and you seek confirmation.


No, I don't have this position. I focus solely on the validity of the studies and their conclusions. Having said that, men and women also demonstrate a difference in masculine strength, yet their IQ variance is indiscernible.

We have a study or a collection of complicated studies which are essentially a black box, and which clearly carry political implications. They seek to assert significance of a certain pre-disposition based on a person's origins, citing small to moderate variances in output results. On the other hand, we have a number of straightforward examples demonstrating substantial differences in this variance depending on the person's objective environmental/social/economic conditions. I provided a couple of such examples.

Substantial >> small to moderate. Given that the sampled groups tend to gravitate to certain economic conditions in the modern world, the results of these studies are getting totally blurred.
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Re: Self annihilation of West by embracement of barbarism

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Wed 24 Oct 2018, 08:39:22

GASMON wrote:And this is going on right now in China - the country we ALL buy all our crap from !!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/id ... dden_camps

Brit15

At least they are not chopping off their heads for no reason, nor do they blow up their homes randomly.
They are simply eradicating Islam in their country, perhaps out of fear caused by observations what Muslims are doing on the West right now.
Anyone who has renounced Islam is free to go home but reoffendnig can bring more severe consequences.
They don't wont to have territorial, sexual and cultural jihad in their own country.
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