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President Donald J. Trump Domestic Pt. 2

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Re: President Donald J. Trump Domestic Pt. 2

Unread postby Cog » Mon 29 Oct 2018, 10:00:15

Anyone you don't like is literally Hitler.

Cid's contention, and those of the hard left, is all 63 million people who voted for Trump are Nazi's. Or we are just too stupid to realize that we are.

The reality is Trump is the most pro-Jewish president this country has produced. At least more pro Jewish than Obama who attempted to interfere in the Israeli elections.

Trump has a son in law who is an orthodox Jew and his wife converted to the faith. If Trump is a Nazi, he is really bad at it.
Last edited by Cog on Mon 29 Oct 2018, 11:17:08, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump Domestic Pt. 2

Unread postby jedrider » Mon 29 Oct 2018, 11:12:15

Maybe if they translate Trump speeches into German, and then back again into English, it would be a substantial improvement. He's still way into wannabe territory. However, his followers appear to be ready.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump Domestic Pt. 2

Unread postby Cog » Mon 29 Oct 2018, 11:18:52

jedrider wrote:Maybe if they translate Trump speeches into German, and then back again into English, it would be a substantial improvement. He's still way into wannabe territory. However, his followers appear to be ready.


So you think Trump and anyone who voted for him is a Nazi? Prove your contention or you are just simply a retard.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump Domestic Pt. 2

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Mon 29 Oct 2018, 12:00:12

Those who are obsessed with Trump's (admittedly) offensive personality and blustering comments display a lack of depth in their own personalities.

I don't actually know ANYBODY who likes him, or respects him personally. However, lots of people are beginning to realize that he is doing a difficult job better than most, and without the typical political BS.

By contrast, Obama was well respected, even loved by a lot of people, and was the very epitomy of a useless leader. He could talk, he was personable, and he could give one He!! of a good speech. However, he was totally and completely inept when it came to actually DOING anything, including leading his own party. For example, he should have stepped on Hillary's head, and put her in prison for her crimes while Secretary of State. He did not, and the complete corruption of the Democrats was then plainly visible to all. That cost them the office of POTUS and will cost them the mid-term elections opportunity to blunt whatever Trump wants to do next.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump Domestic Pt. 2

Unread postby Cid_Yama » Mon 29 Oct 2018, 17:58:32

There is a big difference between wanting to be Hitler, and studying the means, through oratory, by which Hitler achieved his following. If you wanted that kind of following, and that kind of power, as Trump surely does, that is exactly the playbook you would want to follow.

And I agree, in part, that those that go to his rallies, and sing his praises on social media are too stupid to realize, or actually like the whole idea, just like you Cog. You are my prime example.

Trump's followers generally think in shorthand, and desire simplistic solutions. Most are incapable of seeing things through the eyes of other people unlike themselves.

Those that would be roughshod over by those simplistic solutions, are considered in the way, the enemy, who must be pushed aside, without regard.

And fortunately for Trump, the Alt-Right, originally small in number, waited in the wings to take up the banner, as soon as Trump gave them the conditions that allowed them to come out of the woodwork.

The history of the Fascist Right goes back to the 1930s, when they operated out in the light, even holding a rally at Madison Square Gardens. They has summer camps, and family-friendly social gatherings, and a modicum of respectability.

This all ended when Roosevelt joined the Allies in the fight against the Fascist nations in WWII after Pearl Harbor.

The American Fascists were forced to go underground, but did not disappear. Their legacy do not even recognize themselves as Fascist, but saw the opportunity with the Trump presidency, to return to the light, still bearing all of the resentment from having been driven from the light, and seen by the majority as abominations for decades.

They have now taken over the Republican Party, which kept them hid in the closets and basements, hosing them off whenever an election came around.

They are America's dark unconscious, come once again to the light.

As Americans we must recognize them as a part of ourselves, and deal with it in the light. Only then can they be reintegrated into the whole.

We are not the righteous people we hoped ourselves to be. We had just locked away those parts of ourselves we did not like in dark closets, and allowed the wounds to fester.

Now we have no choice but to deal with it.

madison_square_nazi_rally_1939_1.jpg
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Re: President Donald J. Trump Domestic Pt. 2

Unread postby Cog » Mon 29 Oct 2018, 18:37:31

Cid,

You lost an election. I would have thought in the two years that have transpired, you would have gotten over it. In two more years, you can elect the far left loon of your choice. Be patient. If you can't stand the stress of losing an election, you need to get the therapy that you most likely need. We aren't going to put you in a camp, at least not yet, so relax. ;)

MAGA

Damn. My SS uniform isn't back from the cleaners yet for our secret torchlight rally. This is unacceptable. I will put myself back in the mood with this music video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1ufYQQdpgE
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Re: President Donald J. Trump Domestic Pt. 2

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Mon 29 Oct 2018, 18:53:40

Cid_Yama wrote:....

They have now taken over the Republican Party, which kept them hid in the closets and basements, hosing them off whenever an election came around.

They are America's dark unconscious, come once again to the light.
.....
You go too far here. Out of the some ninety million Republicans there are perhaps some one hundred or so zealots that are that far right and they are more then balanced by the farthest left of the Bernie supporters.
The Republican voters did not vote for a modern Hitler. They instead voted against a corrupt Hillary ,Pelosi, Schumer government.
We shall see next Tuesday how satisfied they are with their choice.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump Domestic Pt. 2

Unread postby Cid_Yama » Mon 29 Oct 2018, 21:50:46

As stated repeatedly, I am an Eisenhower Republican, a Progressive Republican. One of the ones you tried to purge from the party. Many of us no longer admit we are Republicans anymore, but I intend to win back the party before you destroy it and send us the way of the Whigs. The only election I lost was a primary.

There are a whole lot more than 100 :lol: . There were enough to take the Republican Party away from the more moderate members. And there are many new ones that have joined you.

No, the current Republican party is filled to the brim, especially since most of the moderates left, rather than condone such madness. Pretty much what's left are Conspiracy theorists, Fascists, and Fools (actually conspiracy theorists should be considered a subgroup of fools).

And Cog, it wouldn't surprise me one bit if there were an SS uniform in your closet and you attend torchlight rallies. It's probably right next to the white one with a hood.
Last edited by Cid_Yama on Mon 29 Oct 2018, 22:08:41, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump Domestic Pt. 2

Unread postby Cog » Mon 29 Oct 2018, 22:08:35

Progressive Republican= Democratic Socialist

No thanks to you Cid, us real Republicans control the House, Senate, Executive Branch, SCOTUS, and 33 Republican majority state legislative bodies. Not bad, considering the hate thrown our way by the left and of course you.

I do not know if the Republicans will hold the House. I'd give that a maybe. But left wing lunacy has put the US Senate out of reach of the Dems. Trump had remarked he would teach the Republicans how to win and he is keeping that promise.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump Domestic Pt. 2

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Tue 30 Oct 2018, 02:43:28

I remember when the full spectrum of right/left ideology was represented within each of the two parties. I remember that for over a century, the extreme right wing of American politics was found within the Democratic party in the form of the Dixiecrats. We decided whether the current election's platform was conservative or progressive in the Primaries, and the other party tried to occupy the same space the other side of center, in order to give people a choice. Republicans voted for Democrats and vice-versa, and were not vilified for it.

The extreme partisanship of the present times started with the Kennedies and their Camelot reforms. I cannot help but think they were assasinated because they threatened long existing power structures.

The present extreme partisanship is a sickness.

I weary of repeating this last as well, it seems nobody is listening. Trump is not, and never was, either a Conservative or a Republican. For most of his life he was a Liberal NYC Democrat. Then somebody decided that he should base his Populist campaign on the side of the R's, because of the corruption within the D's at that exact time. In a different decade, he would have based his Populism within a Democratic platform, and still won, because he was campaigning against Big Party Dogmas that existed - and still exist - in both the R's and the D's.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump Domestic Pt. 2

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 30 Oct 2018, 06:05:40

KJ,
You are correct, very few voted FOR either candidate, and I recall Cog saying he would “...hold his nose and vote for Trump.” This was very much about who you feared least.

Cid,
The problem with Trump as Hitler is that it strikes a very specific example of a dictator. When you look at dictators in general they have:
Control over their party
A very loyal cadree surrounding them
Assession to power through party proclimation
Strong supporters in key governmental positions
Wide support in the financial sector

Hillary fit the general mood of a would be dictator better than Trump. Not to mention she is slight younger and as a woman has a longer life expectancy. If after 8 years of Obama we had 8 years of Clinton we may have been in very bad shape.

That’s not to support Trump, it’s just to point out Trump is less our problems than our political party system itself.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump Domestic Pt. 2

Unread postby Cog » Tue 30 Oct 2018, 08:27:53

During the early primaries I supported Cruz because I recognized him as a constitutionalist and would stay true to those principles. At some point, I realized that Cruz could not win and neither could any of the other 18 Republicans. So my choice was clear. Hillary had to be defeated by any means necessary.

Since the election I'm firmly on the Trump train. He is doing or making the attempt to fulfill everything he ran on. That is rare with the political class. I'm not disappointed. Secure borders, lower taxes and regulations, withdrawing from treaties and trade agreements which disfavor the usa. Etc.

Trump is no conservative idealogue. He is is a pragmatist and populist. It's just so happens the ideas he pushes, are conservative in nature.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump Domestic Pt. 2

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Tue 30 Oct 2018, 13:34:12

To be frank, Cruz creeps me out, and always did. Even more than Clinton or Trump. Sanders was an honest and sincere whack job, along with many (if not most) of his supporters.

I'd like to think the process sorts out the whack jobs. But both Obama and Trump weaken that argument.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump Domestic Pt. 2

Unread postby evilgenius » Tue 30 Oct 2018, 14:52:21

How is a call to end birthright citizenship any less a threat to American's freedoms than a call to ban guns is when that call goes against the Second Amendment? Seriously, the Second Amendment is even more vaguely worded, when it mentions the militia, than birthright citizenship is. Why hasn't the right jumped all over Trump concerning this? It says something about partisanship, alright. It says that politics is more about emotion than those who want to wrap themselves in the Constitution care to admit. If the right doesn't want that wrapper to be a lie, then they should ask him to take it back.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump Domestic Pt. 2

Unread postby Cog » Tue 30 Oct 2018, 15:11:01

Because the intent of the 14th Amendment was to give citizenship to the freed black slaves. There were no immigration laws at the time of its adoption so the concept of illegal aliens could not have been why it was written. SCOTUS will probably reject that argument since the text is nonetheless clear. If you are born here you are a citizen.

But that doesn't mean the illegal alien parents are citizens. Make the newborn a citizen and kick the parents out. They can take the child with them if they wish or abandon it for adoption. That would remove the anchor aspect/desirability of illegals giving birth here.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump Domestic Pt. 2

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 30 Oct 2018, 15:47:06

It would be interesting to hear it argued in SCOTUS.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump Domestic Pt. 2

Unread postby Cog » Tue 30 Oct 2018, 15:53:54

I would like to hear this argument too even though it is probably bound to fail. The meaning of the text is pretty clear and hard to overcome. Evilgenius isn't wrong about that, even if it pains me to agree with him. But in the writing of the court's opinion, they sometimes give you clues on what would have passed constitutional muster with them. Then Congress can do its job and pass the appropriate legislation.
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Re: President Donald J. Trump Domestic Pt. 2

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 30 Oct 2018, 17:00:26

And now for something completely different.

https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2017 ... eight.html
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Re: President Donald J. Trump Domestic Pt. 2

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Tue 30 Oct 2018, 20:02:23

Or an effective wall and airport controls would keep them from being born here to begin with. Just saying!
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Re: President Donald J. Trump Domestic Pt. 2

Unread postby Tanada » Tue 30 Oct 2018, 21:34:19

Even at the beginning Birthright Citizenship went much further than initially intended because it did not effect just the slaves and former slaves. It also took effect for all First Peoples not living on official Reservations. Part of President Jackson's rationale for evicting the 100,000 native tribesmen of the 'five civilized tribes' was that as non-european ancestry meant they were not citizens but merely non citizen residents subject to federal jurisdiction. If the 14th Amendment had been in place in 1820 then all of those 100,000 would have been citizens under the law and evicting them would have been a much tougher sell because more concerned voting citizens would have gotten PO'd over the seizure of their property and their eviction under the premise that if it can be done to one citizen it can be done to you as a citizen as well.

After the 14th Amendment was adopted every African American and native pre-columbian North American descendant living in the USA or its territories was granted blanket citizenship. Prior to that citizenship had to be specifically granted to specific residents of newly acquired territory, for example the French/Creole population of the Louisiana territory, the entire free population of Texas including every Hispanic resident and the entire Hispanic population of the Mexican Cession and Gadsden Purchase after the Mexican American War and Gadsden Purchase agreements. It was written directly into the treaties and when the Senate ratified it had equal force with the Constitution.

In a way IMO the founders made a mistake in not specifying that International Treaties do not have equal or greater effect than the Constitution. Certain jurists argue that International Treaties are equivalent to Constitutional Amendments and if we ratify an international treaty then that treaty supercedes constitutional and federal legislation from then on. IMO this is clearly in error as all treaties are revocable under specified conditions while amendments to the actual Constitution can only be altered by later amendment or 'reinterpretation'. This clearly demonstrates that Treaties while very important are lower law than the Constitution as amended.

Before the 14th Amendment the Constitution did not define citizenship, it just presented standards that had to be met for serving in elected office (President/Vice President, Member of Senate, Member of House).

IMO the biggest step in the path of trying to convert the Republic into a Democracy was the direct election of US Senators with the 17th Amendment. Before that Senators served at the pleasure of the State Governments and had to demonstrate to those governments that they were trying to do the best they could for the state they were representing in the Senate Chamber. After the amendment it became a pure popularity contest with the voters and we went from responsible Senators to the best salesman who could attract the most voters. Most states almost instantly enacted laws to ensure that third party candidates for Senate would have an extraordinarily hard time ever getting elected to office through collusion between the D and R factions agreeing to keep the contest to just themselves.

Thus the last time a major party faded and was replaced by a new party was 1856 when the Republicans unseated the Whigs for the first time. Within 20 years the Whig party was no longer able to get anyone elected and pretty much faded from history. The only real chance for a new party to arise would be for a Populist like President Trump to stake out a position which would attract the center of both the D and R parties, declare a new Party (call it the Labor party for convenience) modeled on the old values of taking care of the voters instead of the special interest groups and big bankers. Sure they would be hated by the corporate interests, but people in general vote for their representative no matter how long they have been in office because they believe 'their' person in Congress looks out for them. A move like that could attract enough of the good people in both parties to actually create a new center field party leaving the extremists to maintain the old R and D parties and recapturing the broad middle where most American Voters want the Congress as a whole to be. The reason Congress has an 11% approval rating is everyone dislikes the extremists in the other party and most folks don't even like the extremists in their own party. I say cut the reasonable people out of both R and D and merge them into a majority L party that could actually accomplish things instead of engaging in stream of hate rhetoric.
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