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London Terror 8/14/2018

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London Terror 8/14/2018

Unread postby Subjectivist » Tue 14 Aug 2018, 15:18:00

A car plowed into pedestrians and cyclists near the Houses of Parliament in London during the morning rush hour Tuesday, injuring three people in what police suspect is the latest in a string of vehicle-based attacks in the British capital.

Armed police flooded the area after the incident was reported at 7:37 a.m., hauling the driver from the vehicle, arresting him and cordoning off streets surrounding the heart of Britain's government. The nearby Westminster subway station was closed, and police asked people to stay away from the area.

"Given that this appears to be a deliberate act, the method and this being an iconic site, we are treating it as a terrorist incident," Assistant Commissioner Neil Basu of the Metropolitan Police Service told reporters outside Scotland Yard.

A man in his late 20s was arrested on suspicion of terrorism offenses. The suspect was not cooperating with police, and officers were trying to confirm his identity, said Basu, who oversees U.K. counterterrorism policing. No other suspects have been identified and police believe there is no further threat to Londoners, he said.

Eyewitnesses said the silver car was traveling at high speed when it hit pedestrians and cyclists, then crashed into a barrier designed to protect Parliament from vehicle attack. Two people were taken to local hospitals and another was treated at the scene. One woman remained hospitalized Tuesday afternoon, but her injuries aren't believed to be life threatening, authorities said.

"The car drove at speed into the barriers outside the House of Lords. There was a loud bang from the collision and a bit of smoke," Ewelina Ochab told The Associated Press. "The driver did not get out. The guards started screaming to people to move away."


http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nati ... story.html
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Re: London Terror 8/14/2018

Unread postby Plantagenet » Tue 14 Aug 2018, 16:12:53

Some Christians have what they call "come to Jesus" religious beliefs which involves getting down on their knees and accepting Jesus as their savior so they can go to heaven.

Some Muslims have what they call "come to Muhammad" religious beliefs which involves going on jihad and killing infidels so they can go to heaven.

Its the same kind of thing, really. All gods chillun want to go to heaven.

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Re: London Terror 8/14/2018

Unread postby Tanada » Wed 15 Aug 2018, 11:02:14

Plantagenet wrote:Some Christians have what they call "come to Jesus" religious beliefs which involves getting down on their knees and accepting Jesus as their savior so they can go to heaven.

Some Muslims have what they call "come to Muhammad" religious beliefs which involves going on jihad and killing infidels so they can go to heaven.

Its the same kind of thing, really. All gods chillun want to go to heaven.

Cheers!


So in your world of moral relativism killing people is the same as begging for forgiveness? Now THAT is a strange world view.
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Re: London Terror 8/14/2018

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 15 Aug 2018, 11:32:54

Tanada wrote:
Plantagenet wrote:Some Christians have what they call "come to Jesus" religious beliefs which involves getting down on their knees and accepting Jesus as their savior so they can go to heaven.

Some Muslims have what they call "come to Muhammad" religious beliefs which involves going on jihad and killing infidels so they can go to heaven.

Its the same kind of thing, really. All gods chillun want to go to heaven.

Cheers!


So in your world of moral relativism killing people is the same as begging for forgiveness? Now THAT is a strange world view.


No, of course not.

I'm pointing out that the Christian practice of accepting Jesus and begging forgiveness to go to heaven and the Muslim practice of accepting Muhammad and going on Jihad and killing infidels to go to heaven are both RELIGIOUS beliefs. Of course the actions themselves are very different, because Christianity and Islam are different relgions with different belief systems, but both are based on acceptance and faith in their respective Christian or Muslim religious doctrines and teachings.

The reasons I think this is a useful idea is that it explains why seemingly any Muslim can decide at any time to accept the more fundamentalist religious teachings of Islamist Islam and become a jihadi (i.e. a terrorist). From the religious perspective, its similar to what happens when a Christian decides to become a devout fundamentalist Christian.

It always seems odd when Muslims who have immigrated to Europe (or the US) and lived what seemed like normal peaceful lives for years at a time suddenly "flip" and decide they are jihadi warriors out to commit mass casualty attacks on the "infidels." But whats happened is that they have had a come-to-Muhammad conversion to a more fundamentalist version of Islam.

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Re: London Terror 8/14/2018

Unread postby Cog » Wed 15 Aug 2018, 15:56:32

I wonder if the London Mayor has opined yet again that "terror threats are part and parcel of living in a big city".
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Re: London Terror 8/14/2018

Unread postby Subjectivist » Thu 16 Aug 2018, 05:54:44

Plantagenet wrote:I'm pointing out that the Christian practice of accepting Jesus and begging forgiveness to go to heaven and the Muslim practice of accepting Muhammad and going on Jihad and killing infidels to go to heaven are both RELIGIOUS beliefs. Of course the actions themselves are very different, because Christianity and Islam are different relgions with different belief systems, but both are based on acceptance and faith in their respective Christian or Muslim religious doctrines and teachings.

The reasons I think this is a useful idea is that it explains why seemingly any Muslim can decide at any time to accept the more fundamentalist religious teachings of Islamist Islam and become a jihadi (i.e. a terrorist). From the religious perspective, its similar to what happens when a Christian decides to become a devout fundamentalist Christian.

It always seems odd when Muslims who have immigrated to Europe (or the US) and lived what seemed like normal peaceful lives for years at a time suddenly "flip" and decide they are jihadi warriors out to commit mass casualty attacks on the "infidels." But whats happened is that they have had a come-to-Muhammad conversion to a more fundamentalist version of Islam.

Cheers!


However in comparative religion studies I learned that Islam was spread to a large extent by proselytizing and violance is only a back up plan. Indeed Deerborn Mchgan 60 miles from Toledo is one of the largest mslim religious communities in North America and they don't have hundreds of terrorists cming out into Michigan and Ohio to attack people every year. The 1% who use islam as an excuse to kill are almost always first or second generation immigrants who compare their ideal world view with the culture they or their parents have moved to and get angry enough to kill. Look at the Black Muslm movement in the USA, they have over a million members born in the US of parents born in the US, but they spend their efforts trying to convert their fellow Americans, not terrorize them into conversion.
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Re: London Terror 8/14/2018

Unread postby evilgenius » Thu 16 Aug 2018, 11:29:24

Making an assumption about the existence of God; I think both the Fundamentalist Christians and the Radical Muslims serve a weak God. Their God can't take care of itself. Somehow, it needs their help. A loving God, on the other hand, doesn't need anyone's help. That God responds to what goes on inside of a person, coming to them when they realize they need help. If the person decides to walk away, they can. That God will always take them back, and use the experience to help or teach them. Most people who understand this sort of God don't leave, though. Those people understand rules, but they don't use them to make an appeal to God concerning what He has to be. They don't see God as an ogre who exists on the other side of a life lived at the behest of rules, which must always be followed or you lose Him. It makes you wonder if the more hard edged forms of religion aren't just people who absolutely refuse to give up control to God at all?
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Re: London Terror 8/14/2018

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Thu 16 Aug 2018, 22:20:58

evilgenius wrote:Making an assumption about the existence of God; I think both the Fundamentalist Christians and the Radical Muslims serve a weak God. Their God can't take care of itself. Somehow, it needs their help. A loving God, on the other hand, doesn't need anyone's help.

Given how little evidence there is that belonging to an organized religion, or praying, etc. makes any difference at all, calling any God "strong" seems rather far fetched.

The randomness persists, regardless. Whether some preacher says "You just have to have faith", or not.
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Re: London Terror 8/14/2018

Unread postby Subjectivist » Thu 16 Aug 2018, 22:51:07

Outcast_Searcher wrote:
evilgenius wrote:Making an assumption about the existence of God; I think both the Fundamentalist Christians and the Radical Muslims serve a weak God. Their God can't take care of itself. Somehow, it needs their help. A loving God, on the other hand, doesn't need anyone's help.

Given how little evidence there is that belonging to an organized religion, or praying, etc. makes any difference at all, calling any God "strong" seems rather far fetched.

The randomness persists, regardless. Whether some preacher says "You just have to have faith", or not.


This is where you make a fundamental error. Faith is a fully subjective experience. By having faith and practicing certain doctrines based on that faith I experience great comfort when troubling things happen to me, my loved ones, my neighbors or my country. I seek to promte justice, not revenge or retribution when I or any f the above are wronged. I also seek to influence the leadership of my town/county/state/federal government to do the same. Many of the things the USA does now are anathama to my sense of justice, but so far TOTB have not gotten sufficient push back from the voters to end those practices. I still have hope this situation will change for the better in the future. However if God were constantly intervening that would remov the responsibility of acting as a good citizen, not to mention destroy the concept of Free Will.
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Re: London Terror 8/14/2018

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 17 Aug 2018, 10:50:20

Subjectivist wrote:Deerborn Mchgan 60 miles from Toledo is one of the largest mslim religious communities in North America and they don't have hundreds of terrorists cming out .... to attack people every year.


Actually, various Muslim communities in the US are producing hundreds of American Islamic terrorists, and they are going to out to attack people. Fortunately, so far they've mainly been joining and fighting with Muslim terrorist groups overseas. By latest count about 300 US Muslims went to fight with ISIS in Syria and at least 40 other US Muslims went to fight with the El Shabab Islamic terrorist organization in Africa. No doubt there are hundreds more with similar viewpoints still in the United States who didn't make the arduous journeys to Syria and Africa.

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Re: London Terror 8/14/2018

Unread postby Tanada » Fri 17 Aug 2018, 10:59:26

Plantagenet wrote:
Subjectivist wrote:Deerborn Mchgan 60 miles from Toledo is one of the largest mslim religious communities in North America and they don't have hundreds of terrorists cming out .... to attack people every year.


Actually, various Muslim communities in the US are producing hundreds of American Islamic terrorists, and they are going to out to attack people. Fortunately, so far they've mainly been joining and fighting with Muslim terrorist groups overseas. By latest count about 300 US Muslims went to fight with ISIS in Syria and at least 40 other US Muslims went to fight with the El Shabab Islamic terrorist organization in Africa. No doubt there are hundreds more with similar viewpoints still in the United States who didn't make the arduous journeys to Syria and Africa.

Cheers!


Must I point out that hundreds, perhaps thousands of Americans of all faiths are currently employed as 'military contractors' doing the same thing for money rather than ideology?
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Re: London Terror 8/14/2018

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 17 Aug 2018, 11:14:48

Tanada wrote:
Plantagenet wrote:
Subjectivist wrote:Deerborn Mchgan 60 miles from Toledo is one of the largest mslim religious communities in North America and they don't have hundreds of terrorists cming out .... to attack people every year.


Actually, various Muslim communities in the US are producing hundreds of American Islamic terrorists, and they are going to out to attack people. Fortunately, so far they've mainly been joining and fighting with Muslim terrorist groups overseas. By latest count about 300 US Muslims went to fight with ISIS in Syria and at least 40 other US Muslims went to fight with the El Shabab Islamic terrorist organization in Africa. No doubt there are hundreds more with similar viewpoints still in the United States who didn't make the arduous journeys to Syria and Africa.

Cheers!


Must I point out that hundreds, perhaps thousands of Americans of all faiths are currently employed as 'military contractors' doing the same thing for money rather than ideology?


Yup.

A large number people in the US and elsewhere engage in war for money, and patriotism is also very important, but there are also some people who fight primarily because of their religious beliefs. I find it curious that Islamic people fight wars (or engage in terrorism) for religious reasons because we in the west don't normally think of religions and religous people as being violent or warlike.

Jihad (religious war) is a central tenet of Islamic religious belief and has been ever since the founding of Islam by Muhammad, and Islamic religious doctrine holds that martyrdom in jihad is a sure fire way to get into Muslim heaven, where the martyrs are promised palaces filled with myriads of virgins eager to help them enjoy eternity.

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Re: London Terror 8/14/2018

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Fri 17 Aug 2018, 14:11:16

Jihad (religious war) is a central tenet of Islamic religious belief and has been ever since the founding of Islam by Muhammad, and Islamic religious doctrine holds that martyrdom in jihad is a sure fire way to get into Muslim heaven, where the martyrs are promised palaces filled with myriads of virgins eager to help them enjoy eternity.


this is a misconception that has lead to more problems than were there to start I'm afraid.

The following from the Islamic council of the Amercias
http://islamicsupremecouncil.org/understanding-islam/legal-rulings/5-jihad-a-misunderstood-concept-from-islam.html?start=9

WHAT JIHAD IS
The Arabic word "jihad" is often translated as "holy war," but in a purely linguistic sense, the word " jihad" means struggling or striving.
The arabic word for war is: "al-harb".
In a religious sense, as described by the Quran and teachings of the Prophet Muhammad (s), "jihad" has many meanings. It can refer to internal as well as external efforts to be a good Muslims or believer, as well as working to inform people about the faith of Islam.
If military jihad is required to protect the faith against others, it can be performed using anything from legal, diplomatic and economic to political means. If there is no peaceful alternative, Islam also allows the use of force, but there are strict rules of engagement. Innocents - such as women, children, or invalids - must never be harmed, and any peaceful overtures from the enemy must be accepted.
Military action is therefore only one means of jihad, and is very rare. To highlight this point, the Prophet Mohammed told his followers returning from a military campaign: "This day we have returned from the minor jihad to the major jihad," which he said meant returning from armed battle to the peaceful battle for self-control and betterment.
In case military action appears necessary, not everyone can declare jihad. The religious military campaign has to be declared by a proper authority, advised by scholars, who say the religion and people are under threat and violence is imperative to defend them. The concept of "just war" is very important.
The concept of jihad has been hijacked by many political and religious groups over the ages in a bid to justify various forms of violence. In most cases, Islamic splinter groups invoked jihad to fight against the established Islamic order. Scholars say this misuse of jihad contradicts Islam.
Examples of sanctioned military jihad include the Muslims' defensive battles against the Crusaders in medieval times, and before that some responses by Muslims against Byzantine and Persian attacks during the period of the early Islamic conquests.

WHAT JIHAD IS NOT
Jihad is not a violent concept.
Jihad is not a declaration of war against other religions. It is worth noting that the Koran specifically refers to Jews and Christians as "people of the book" who should be protected and respected. All three faiths worship the same God. Allah is just the Arabic word for God, and is used by Christian Arabs as well as Muslims.
Military action in the name of Islam has not been common in the history of Islam. Scholars says most calls for violent jihad are not sanctioned by Islam.
Warfare in the name of God is not unique to Islam. Other faiths throughout the world have waged wars with religious justifications
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Re: London Terror 8/14/2018

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 17 Aug 2018, 14:45:08

WHAT JIHAD IS
...If military jihad is required to protect the faith against others, it can be performed using anything from legal, diplomatic and economic to political means. If there is no peaceful alternative, Islam also allows the use of force, but there are strict rules of engagement. Innocents - such as women, children, or invalids - must never be harmed, and any peaceful overtures from the enemy must be accepted.


That sounds nice but its utter poppycock, of course.

I didn't see the Islamic terrorists who hijacked passenger jets and flew them into the World Trade Towers on 9/11/11 showing the slightest bit of concern about the thousands of innocent civilians, including women, children, and invalids, that they were slaughtering both in the planes and in the buildings.

Similarly the Islamic jihadis of ISIS don't seem to follow the rules that you have set out for them. Not only did they murder women and children but they committed genocide against entire populations. And those few they didn't murder they enslaved. The total death toll in the conflict in Syria is over 600,000 and still climbing.

And the garden variety Islamic terrorists in the West murder women and children indiscriminately when they set off bombs in passenger trains, or drive trucks down crowded streets or into Christmas markets (there tend to be women and children at Christmas markets, don't you know), or gun down people sitting in cafes or attending music concerts. And they don't only go for concerts with adults either----remember the Islamic terrorist in Manchester set off a bomb at an Arianna Grande concert----where there were mainly pre-teen girls. Even the most recent terror attack in London on 8/14/2018 was carried by a Muslim who drove his car into people on bicycles---ane he didn't swerve to miss the women either.

Your claim is ridiculous and its poppycock, I say. Its utter hogwash to claim Muslim terrorists on jihad don't harm "innocents" or women and children.

Alas----once again the real world has failed to conform to your fantasies.

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Re: London Terror 8/14/2018

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Fri 17 Aug 2018, 15:10:38

I didn't see the Islamic terrorists who hijacked passenger jets and flew them into the World Trade Towers on 9/11/11 showing the slightest bit of concern about the thousands of innocent civilians, including women, children, and invalids, that they were slaughtering both in the planes and in the buildings.


apparently, you missed the part that said:
The concept of jihad has been hijacked by many political and religious groups over the ages in a bid to justify various forms of violence.

Terrorists do not have a "jihad" that is sanctioned by Islam. It is misused by both sides.

Similarly the Islamic jihadis of ISIS don't seem to follow the rules that you have set out for them. Not only did they murder women and children but they committed genocide against entire populations. And those few they didn't murder they enslaved. The total death toll in the conflict in Syria is over 600,000 and still climbing.


Once again a small group who misinterpret the Koran to their own ends.

Your claim is ridiculous and its poppycock, I say. Its utter hogwash to claim Muslim terrorists on jihad don't harm "innocents" or women and children.


once again demonstrating your lack of comprehension. This is actually what that article said:

If there is no peaceful alternative, Islam also allows the use of force, but there are strict rules of engagement. Innocents - such as women, children, or invalids - must never be harmed, and any peaceful overtures from the enemy must be accepted.


what this is saying is that Islam allows the use of force but not against innocents. The form of so-called holy war terrorists are undertaking is not jihad as it is understood in Islamic teachings. I did not say "terrorists on jihad don't harm "innocents" or women and children" as you claim I simply point out through posting the article that the Islamic faith does not support this, regardless of what the terrorists might want you to believe.

The reason I posted this article from the Islamic Council of the Americas is that you and many more have a very poor understanding of what the Koran and hence the Islamic faith supports. It does not support what the terrorists have been doing, many Islamic scholars have pointed out the misuse of the term "jihad".
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Re: London Terror 8/14/2018

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 17 Aug 2018, 15:19:51

Terrorists do not have a "jihad" that is sanctioned by Islam.


They believe they do.
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Re: London Terror 8/14/2018

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Fri 17 Aug 2018, 16:16:06

They believe they do.


just as some radical Christians probably still believe in Just War and Holy War. That doesn't mean it is and indict of the religion, simply a very bad interpretation that fits their purpose.
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Re: London Terror 8/14/2018

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Fri 17 Aug 2018, 23:21:51

Subjectivist wrote:. Faith is a fully subjective experience. By having faith and practicing certain doctrines based on that faith I experience great comfort when troubling things happen to me, my loved ones, my neighbors or my country.

Good for you or for anyone else who wishes to practice the organized religion of their choice.

But what does having the subjective experience of faith due with a "strong God"? That faith can bring one comfort whether the God in question is strong, weak, or nonexistent.
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Re: London Terror 8/14/2018

Unread postby Cog » Sat 18 Aug 2018, 03:48:08

rockdoc123 wrote:
They believe they do.


just as some radical Christians probably still believe in Just War and Holy War. That doesn't mean it is and indict of the religion, simply a very bad interpretation that fits their purpose.


See a lot of non-Muslims strapping on suicide vests and running over people in trucks? Or flying airplanes into skyscrapers? The Muslim religion and sharia law is not reconcible with western values of democracy, rule of law, and freedom. Europe is finding this out the hard way.
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Re: London Terror 8/14/2018

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 21 Aug 2018, 07:25:09

Of course not, we have drones.
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