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Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

For discussions of events and conditions not necessarily related to Peak Oil.

Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby radon1 » Sat 27 Apr 2019, 14:23:09

Ibon wrote:
Discussing the evils or benefits of socialism or capitalism as 7.6 billion are hell bent on consuming away our planets resources just seems down right ignorant to the bigger picture.....


How are you going to address the "bigger picture" without bringing the "capitalism vs socialism" debate to a resolution, or at least some sense of clarity, particularly given that it keeps the theater tickets fully sold, and produces millions views on the social media?
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby onlooker » Sat 27 Apr 2019, 14:48:36

Not answering for Ibon. But addressing the Bigger picture involves reducing our impact on the Earth from the size of our population and its environment destructive technologies. Once humanity can countenance that fundamental mandate then it can debate any ism that it wishes. Of course not seeing that happening by our volition. So, by default we will be forcefully bought back into balance in a Collapse scenario
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby Ibon » Sat 27 Apr 2019, 16:07:51

radon1 wrote: particularly given that it keeps the theater tickets fully sold, and produces millions views on the social media?


So we agree that it is a distraction then?
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby radon1 » Sun 28 Apr 2019, 03:51:52

onlooker wrote:Not answering for Ibon. But addressing the Bigger picture involves reducing our impact on the Earth from the size of our population and its environment destructive technologies.


Look, this place has a size of a big European country:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZf6VnW ... tu.be&t=19

It has massive volume of biomass, extraordinary fishing and hunting, second or third largest reserves of drinking water on the planet, and is altogether the mother of all mammals according to some. And yet most of it has never been stepped in by a human. Nobody is living there. People are uninterested, except for a few curious tourists. And there is tons of such places on the planet, probably a good majority of its territory. The place is like 1/30 or less of Siberia.

Predominantly, the human population resides in a narrow coastal area, and, as some would argue, if not just scratches the surface, then consumes the planet's resource quite selectively. It's not like the entire planet is blankly ravaged.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby radon1 » Sun 28 Apr 2019, 04:12:08

Ibon wrote:So we agree that it is a distraction then?


It's not easy to say. It resonates with people apparently, it's not like somebody forces them or brainwashes.

Some of them believe (or suggest) that they want to save the world from "the oppressors", others believe (or suggest) that they want to save the world from the saviors. Both think that this is a serious academic scientific discussion, while in reality this is a purely political debate, and as such, is as useful as far its central point is concerned as a pure political debate can be. In other words, it has a zero cognitive value in this respect. But it produces a number of interesting side observations.

It's not like people on both sides would not go for saving the world from consumerism if given a reason and/or place. Particularly, given their apparent activism.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby onlooker » Sun 28 Apr 2019, 06:18:13

Radon and what would happen if that place in Russia were invaded by many people? They would find their place has overshot their environmenral capacity also. They're are different ways too measure the ecofootprint of a population. One way that is important is the manner that a given population is impacting its environment. When you take the demographics of people in rich countries you observe the very pernicious impacts of these people on the ecology based on their ways of living and consuming. As one example, the immense problem of plastic and its negative impacts on the ocean ecosystems. Human waste is another problem that strikes at the issue of water quality and of course overall population is taxing finite fresh water supplies.

And your reference to many of us living in coastal areas speaks to the fertile AG lands near the coast. In reality we are living in almost every part of the Earth. The Amazon is being degraded and trees being cut down. The Great Barrier Reef is dying. And of course the big one, is CO2 being emitted in large quantities due to the ubiquitous nature of FF as energy sources showing undeniable signs of permantly altering our climate and thus reducing habitable zones. So, our impacts must subside to retain resources and favorable living conditions. Any Ism must recognize that
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby Ibon » Sun 28 Apr 2019, 06:49:05

radon1 wrote:
onlooker wrote:Not answering for Ibon. But addressing the Bigger picture involves reducing our impact on the Earth from the size of our population and its environment destructive technologies.


Look, this place has a size of a big European country:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZf6VnW ... tu.be&t=19

It has massive volume of biomass, extraordinary fishing and hunting, second or third largest reserves of drinking water on the planet, and is altogether the mother of all mammals according to some. And yet most of it has never been stepped in by a human. Nobody is living there. People are uninterested, except for a few curious tourists. And there is tons of such places on the planet, probably a good majority of its territory. The place is like 1/30 or less of Siberia.

Predominantly, the human population resides in a narrow coastal area, and, as some would argue, if not just scratches the surface, then consumes the planet's resource quite selectively. It's not like the entire planet is blankly ravaged.


Beautiful place Radon...... reminds me of the canoe trips I took in my youth in the far northern boreal forests of northern Canada.

At the moment here at Mount Totumas we have guests from Poland, Russia and the Ukraine. Don't ask me how this happened that all three nations are represented here at this moment. They are entomologists and a family visiting. Yesterday I introduced the Ukranian family to the two Russian entomologists. There stayed for two hours drinking tea and chatting..... great to see this mini united nations of cultures here........ afterwards our Russian guest told me they had a really good conversation about politics....

you put people together in a natural setting and automatically there is a baseline for harmony.........
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby Cog » Sun 28 Apr 2019, 08:12:52

I'm all for moving the UN down there with you Ibon.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby Ibon » Sun 28 Apr 2019, 10:16:41

radon1 wrote:
It's not like people on both sides would not go for saving the world from consumerism if given a reason and/or place. Particularly, given their apparent activism.


The irony is that consumerism, all that stuff beyond the basic needs of survival, at its most fundamental is a compensation for living the drudgery of being harnessed to the economic matrix that feeds it. Harnessed to jobs that bring no joy or wellbeing and then you compensate that compromised existence by consuming useless shit.

The irony is that this consumption, on a massive scale practiced by billions of modern Kudzu Apes, destroys the pristine natural ecosystems that are the very remedy to this pandemic of spiritual impoverishment.

Put any of these consumers into the pristine boreal forests of the far northern hemisphere, like in the video you shared, and within a day or two the beauty and harmony of such a place acts like an elexir, calming the soul, calming that hungry appetite for consumption.

Most of consumption is like fast food, it tastes good and fills you up temporarily but leaves you feeling empty and not really nourished.

There are 1.5 million acres of wilderness around me reminding me of this on a daily basis. There are folks from many nationalities who visit us, almost all express a sense of awe at the sweet sweet space here empty of human landscapes. Most comment on the deep peace they feel after a day or two here.

Most never leave their Kudzu Ape landscapes, the drudgery of their meaningless jobs, the hours spent a day on social media, the trips going shopping to consume useless shit to compensate for their misery. Most of modern humanity is spiritually impoverished.
We are breeding an ever growing percentage of the human population living in urban or suburban areas with no direct relationship with the natural world, where nature has become an abstraction.

I have always stated clearly that at its source human ecological overshoot represents a spiritual deficit that reduces modern humans to unfulfilled consumers.

We never really do want to open up this discussion and explore it do we?
Last edited by Ibon on Sun 28 Apr 2019, 10:32:48, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 28 Apr 2019, 10:17:41

Cog,

What’s wrong with the United Nations? What’s wrong with folks from various countries talking?
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby Ibon » Sun 28 Apr 2019, 10:29:30

radon1 wrote:

Predominantly, the human population resides in a narrow coastal area, and, as some would argue, if not just scratches the surface, then consumes the planet's resource quite selectively. It's not like the entire planet is blankly ravaged.


This is actually quite true. There are still immense wilderness areas around the planet and fortunately the masses of decadent modern humans cluster together in urban areas many along the coast. This is a good thing.

When I lived in South Florida I had a flats boat and frequently ventured into the Everglades. Within minutes I would have hundreds of thousands of acres of saw grass and mangrove wilderness around me, a driftwood fire on an empty beach with the stars above, a glow of yellow on the eastern horizon caused by the thousands of sodium vapor lights of far off urban Miami. Mosquitoes by the billions trying to get through the netting of our screened in porch. I let many of them feed on me in gratefulness of their presence for they are the guardians of this wilderness keeping out the hundreds of millions of kudzu apes clustered along the coast.

I stopped years ago disparaging the lifestyle of spiritually impoverished consumers for their compromised lives left a lot of open room for those of us who know better.

There is arrogance in this prose of mine, I recognize that. But there is truth.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby Ibon » Sun 28 Apr 2019, 10:51:18

For those interested the best illustration of consumer culture are the many who superficially visit some of the iconic national parks in the USA. The reality of going to Yellowstone or Yosemite NP today is subjecting yourself to long lines of automobiles of folks who stop along the way and walk perhaps a kilometer or two to stand in front of some landscape for a few minutes and they then herd themslves over to the concessions and wait in long lines to feed themselves on junk food. This represents I would say a good 90% of the visitors of our national park system. They approach the visit to the national park from a consumer orientation. They come, consume an iconic grand canyon for a brief moment, and move on. And all of this happens while within these same national parks there are hundreds of thousands of back country trails empty of humans except for those intrepid back packers who get permits to wander these wilderness areas.

Seeing these humans take all that effort travelling thousands of miles to just keep themselves in dense crowds while visiting our national parks is one of the most baffling things I think I have ever witnessed...... It angered me for years until I then realized that their impoverishment opened up all that back country wilderness for the rest of us. At that moment I stopped feeling disdain and felt a deep appreciation for how many humans keep themselves imprisoned in their consumer matrix.

I have very little sympathy for the consequences that will one day ravage those who have taken this miracle gift of life and squandered it with mind numbing consumption.

This position is most likely viewed as quite arrogant. I understand that. I spent too much time deep in nature to feel any other way toward the billions living diminished lives.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sun 28 Apr 2019, 13:24:15

First my old body became unable to hike and backpack for days on end, so I got a Jeep. Now I'm in my late 60's and I still feel the call of the wild places. However all my former companions are either dead or living in Senior communities. So I go out alone, knowing how foolish it is. I have an emergency satellite beacon with text capability, but I am typically hours if not days from rescue.

But I still go out, while calling myself a fool. Because those wild places will not be denied. They cleanse my soul and comfort my mind.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby Ibon » Sun 28 Apr 2019, 13:31:44

KaiserJeep wrote:First my old body became unable to hike and backpack for days on end, so I got a Jeep. Now I'm in my late 60's and I still feel the call of the wild places. However all my former companions are either dead or living in Senior communities. So I go out alone, knowing how foolish it is. I have an emergency satellite beacon with text capability, but I am typically hours if not days from rescue.

But I still go out, while calling myself a fool. Because those wild places will not be denied. They cleanse my soul and comfort my mind.


No fool. Wise.... Even if in the worst case you died of a stroke somewhere way out there you would exit at peace. What better way to die?

So KJ, your going out there at your age is a win win, either way!
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby radon1 » Sun 28 Apr 2019, 15:19:05

Ibon wrote:
Put any of these consumers into the pristine boreal forests of the far northern hemisphere, like in the video you shared, and within a day or two the beauty and harmony of such a place acts like an elexir, calming the soul, calming that hungry appetite for consumption.

Most of consumption is like fast food, it tastes good and fills you up temporarily but leaves you feeling empty and not really nourished.


My soul agrees but my mind, speaking frankly, objects. Clustering people densely is a prerequisite for the level of economic activity required for supporting modern living standards. Leave the people in the wilderness outside their traditional realm of economic activity and they will soon begin to starve. Their existence will become a everyday fight for survival, just as it was for most of our ancestors. They won't have time for enjoying the views and appreciating the nature in its pristine beauty. It's just not realistic for most people to be both well fed and enjoy wilderness on a permanent basis. (If it was, it would ruin capitalism anyway).

Coming back to an example close to home - sparse populating is a massive problem in Russia. The authorities are genuinely trying to raise the living standards on various territories. They build a modern hospital in a remote settlement and immediately run into a problem that no doctors are available as only a 100 people are living around and none is qualified. They somehow find a doctor but the entire thing begins to fall apart in couple years time as nobody is available to maintain it. And this all is vastly expensive as a hospital for 100 people costs as much as the one for 10 000 in terms of building and maintenance. The solution is straightforward - bring people into clusters. Not only will they be able to visit a modern hospital, but also they will have a much greater choice in terms of available jobs and opportunities.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby Cog » Sun 28 Apr 2019, 15:36:10

Newfie wrote:Cog,

What’s wrong with the United Nations? What’s wrong with folks from various countries talking?


I see no common ground with an organization dedicated to the destruction of capitalism and the USA in particular, in favor of global socialism. But a unique form of socialism in which the rich countries are bled dry to fund the poor ones.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby onlooker » Sun 28 Apr 2019, 15:59:21

Quite agree of the serenity and harmony derived from Nature. In turn this is a product of the profound sense of Peace felt there which wise musings say is a key to happiness. Wouldn't you agree guys?
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby Cog » Sun 28 Apr 2019, 21:43:54

As long as you understand that Nature can kill you stone dead in seconds yeah its pretty nice. Don't forget the bug spray.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 29 Apr 2019, 07:08:24

Vastly more folks are killed by humans than nature.

It’s just when you don’t understand or respect Nature that it becomes deadly. So, yeah, nature can kill you, but cars are far better at it.

https://www.besthealthdegrees.com/health-risks/

Surprising to some is that the number who die from suicide is more than double that of homicide at a global level. In fact, the number of deaths from suicides is higher than the number of deaths from all forms of violence – including homicide, terrorism, conflict, and executions – globally and across many countries across the world. You can see this relationship here. As Yuval Noah Harari notes in his TED Dialogue: "Statistically you are your own worst enemy. At least, of all the people in the world, you are most likely to be killed by yourself".


https://ourworldindata.org/what-does-the-world-die-from
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby Ibon » Mon 29 Apr 2019, 07:55:08

Newfie wrote:Vastly more folks are killed by humans than nature.

It’s just when you don’t understand or respect Nature that it becomes deadly. So, yeah, nature can kill you, but cars are far better at it.

https://www.besthealthdegrees.com/health-risks/

Surprising to some is that the number who die from suicide is more than double that of homicide at a global level. In fact, the number of deaths from suicides is higher than the number of deaths from all forms of violence – including homicide, terrorism, conflict, and executions – globally and across many countries across the world. You can see this relationship here. As Yuval Noah Harari notes in his TED Dialogue: "Statistically you are your own worst enemy. At least, of all the people in the world, you are most likely to be killed by yourself".


https://ourworldindata.org/what-does-the-world-die-from



It is a good question to wonder why the terror created in the mind is so much more toxic and dangerous than all those tigers and wolves out there?

This is related to the way we demonize scapegoats with blame for macro problems whose source lies in what the collective unconscious refuses to confront in themselves.

This is far too complicated for most to contemplate. Easier to follow the script of your tribe.
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