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Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

For discussions of events and conditions not necessarily related to Peak Oil.

Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby Cog » Sat 01 Sep 2018, 17:38:18

You do you onlooker and I'll do me. See how easy that is?
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby Ibon » Sat 01 Sep 2018, 18:11:04

onlooker wrote:"It's the idealization of unfettered capitalism", well that is what some of us here argue that humans are prone to "like" the modern lifestyle and perks. So, that the West which has seen the greatest explosion of material wealth ever attained in history has adopted Capitalism as the one and only true path to contentment and happiness. One has to wonder about how truly foolish this is. One has to question how can people so easily succumb to "fools gold". If we all step back for a second and truly question why we work so hard to take that next vacation, or buy that new car or etc., we can begin to regain our senses to find that life is about so much more than ephemeral pleasures. And one can also realize that true contentment is much more easily reached by renouncing our urges than being constantly in their grip.


I was fortunate enough to acquire enough wealth that I had the privilege to exit, to withdraw from the world of commerce, to dedicate myself to a cause greater than myself and greater than just piling on more stuff and money. Long before I acquired that wealth though I was already standing outside the rat race, I was in it but not of it. My motivation from the beginning was to exit, I saw the whole system as flawed, the whole matrix of business as a mundane and crass enterprise. I played the game but couldn't wait to get the hell out. Getting out motivated me and was the driving force of what enabled me to accumulate wealth in order to gain that independence. I was frugal all those years actually storing away nuts like a squirrel before a hard winter.

I do not agree that capitalism taps into the same matrix of natural selection and somehow mirrors our basic instincts. We evolved for almost a million years without it. In the time our species exists capitalism has existed for about 1 second. It goes hand in hand with rape and pillage of our planets resources and for all of you who heap praise on this economic system you have no sense of deep time nor history. Capitalism is a brief fart in our species history and that fart is soon to be lit.... natural consequences of human overshoot is the match and getting closer by the day to burn and extinguish this grand economic system.... From the ashes what will emerge is not yet known. Isn't that wonderful?

Some of you idiots actually believe that capitalism represents some pinnacle and end point of economy and human civilization. You are clueless about the inherent instability of capitalism and yet the evidence is all around you. Fools.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sat 01 Sep 2018, 20:19:07

Ibon, you couldn't be more wrong than that. As is often said, Capitalism is absolutely f*cking terrible. It is the worst of all economic systems, except for everything else the human race has ever tried. Yet it is working in about 170 countries around the world, where nothing else has ever worked more than briefly.

In fact you are owning the means of production on Mt. Totumas, beef and coffee I believe you said. Ibon the Capitalist, who used the system to get what he wanted, then became a Capitalist himself, selling the Cloud Forest over and over to anybody in a buying mood.

It's not necessary that you approve of Capitalism, much less sing it's praises. But you should understand that any successful entreprenuer is an acknowledged expert in Capitalist economics.

Primate Instincts + Human Intelligence = Capitalism

The Capitalist measure of success = 7.6+ Billion humans
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby Ibon » Sat 01 Sep 2018, 20:27:36

KaiserJeep wrote:Ibon, you couldn't be more wrong than that. As is often said, Capitalism is absolutely f*cking terrible. It is the worst of all economic systems, except for everything else the human race has ever tried. Yet it is working in about 170 countries around the world, where nothing else has ever worked more than briefly.

In fact you are owning the means of production on Mt. Totumas, beef and coffee I believe you said. Ibon the Capitalist, who used the system to get what he wanted, then became a Capitalist himself, selling the Cloud Forest over and over to anybody in a buying mood.

It's not necessary that you approve of Capitalism, much less sing it's praises. But you should understand that any successful entreprenuer is an acknowledged expert in Capitalist economics.

Primate Instincts + Human Intelligence = Capitalism

The Capitalist measure of success = 7.6+ Billion humans


What we do here is a thin meaningless veneer of a human construct on this glorious habitat. Do you think I actually own something here? You cannot own this as any indigenous person understood long before we imposed concepts like property on to a natural habitat.

I am still in it..... but I am not of it beyond rendering unto Caesar what is Caesars.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sat 01 Sep 2018, 20:59:17

Well ..... fine. If saying that made you feel better, I'm happy for you. :mrgreen:

There is a concept called reality. Then there is a perception of reality in your mind. Then there is a verbal summary that can be communicated to others in words, written prose, pictures, various e-media, etc. All of these things are somewhat different.

When I called you both an entreprenuer and a Capitalist, it was a compliment, BTW.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby ralfy » Sat 01 Sep 2018, 21:14:59

Natural selection is based on changes and limitations in the environment that make some mutations advantageous and others not.

Capitalism is based on deliberate attempts to counter some of those changes and limitations motivated by numbers.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby onlooker » Sat 01 Sep 2018, 21:45:25

I think Kaiser, what Ibon is referring to is that he recognizes the rules of the human ecosystems and societies and thus abides by them. But, that he recognizes also higher rules in which Nature governs and that ultimately we must all adhere to.
Capitalism has worked because of the definition humans have given to "success" and "worked". We have bought into the Civilized norms and expectations, into technology as a barometer of progress, of material abundance as a measure of progress. Yet, look at where we have arrived because of that. A worthwhile measure of success is NOT having 7 plus billion on Earth, many living stunted, difficult lives of deprivation.
So our priorities became skewered. Our notions of success also. To live in harmony with each other and with Nature in moderation allowing this harmony to infuse our societies with the motivation and impetus to create things for the improvement of all of us while living within the constraints of the Natural World was in hindsight perhaps a much more fruitful and advantageous manner to have designed our societies and their trajectory.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby Ibon » Sat 01 Sep 2018, 22:50:06

KaiserJeep wrote:
The Capitalist measure of success = 7.6+ Billion humans


It is a measure of its success as much as it is a measure of its failure. That both can be true at the same time is the paradox. Success in what it enabled to bloom. Failure in that what bloomed has become a rogue parasite on the planet.

In any complex ecosystem there is an eloquent set of checks and balances as the carrying capacity of all the living organisms within said ecosystem is in almost symphonic harmony as the energy moves from producer to consumer, through predator and prey, decomposition recycling the nutrients back through the ecosystem once again. Through the eons there are punctuated events that throw a wrench in the works at times but all in all there is a steady state common to almost all ecosystems. In fact any punctuated event causing disruptions inevitably leads to a return to this steady state.

Capitalism is not steady state and represents a punctuated event actually. It is based on growth and extraction of finite resources with the energy flow going one way at an exponential rate with the whole scale destruction of natural ecosystems converted over to human ecosystems (us, our infrastructure, crops, domesticated animals etc.).

On the backs of all the technology, creativity, wealth generation, global population sits our wounded mother earth. Every virtue one can gloriously proclaim to be attributed to capitalism rests on the back of a wounded planet. On a geological time scale, even on a time scale of civilization, this is all happening in the blink of an eye, in just a few short generations.

We all know that in every successful invention or discovery or enterprise there already lies the seed of its very obsolescence. Capitalism is no different. It may be the best of a basket of bad choices but it is inherently rogue and not steady state. We can witness this in real time today. Its obsolescence is actually upon us.

What will follow?
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sun 02 Sep 2018, 04:10:30

What will follow is humans spreading thoughout the Solar System like invasive weeds. Trillions of humans, some adapted to life in zero gee by genetic engineering, some living in spin gravity space habitats. The Earth will undergo a painful reset and millenia from now, may again be a place that one would want to live. The ugliness to come starts a bare few decades from now, neither of us is likely to see it.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sun 02 Sep 2018, 08:20:36

Ibon, having thought about your response, I have decided that you are blaming Capitalism for normal animal instincts. Cats and dogs and chickens would also eat more than is good for them if they could, reproduce beyond reasonable limits, and destroy the environment thay live in, were they in charge as are the humans. Because Capitalism is a name that humans apply to doing what all animals do. It's not even necessary to generalize to primates, all animals behave this way. Nor is any form of collectivism in any way superior, the Socialists and Communists have even worse records of environmental damage.

Unless you can identify another economic system or form of government that actually improves upon Capitalism, using either the classic criteria or the new ones you seem to be struggling to define, I don't see any value to your thoughts. Humans behaving the way animals behave seems entirely appropriate, that is what we actually are.

After all, Nature produced us. Nature also seems to be the only force that has ever destroyed more of the environment than mankind. Compare human overpopulation to a major eruption of a mega-volcano, which can lay waste to a quarter of the globe in mere days.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby Ibon » Sun 02 Sep 2018, 10:46:55

KaiserJeep wrote:Ibon, having thought about your response, I have decided that you are blaming Capitalism for normal animal instincts. Cats and dogs and chickens would also eat more than is good for them if they could, reproduce beyond reasonable limits, and destroy the environment thay live in, were they in charge as are the humans. Because Capitalism is a name that humans apply to doing what all animals do. It's not even necessary to generalize to primates, all animals behave this way. Nor is any form of collectivism in any way superior, the Socialists and Communists have even worse records of environmental damage.

Unless you can identify another economic system or form of government that actually improves upon Capitalism, using either the classic criteria or the new ones you seem to be struggling to define, I don't see any value to your thoughts. Humans behaving the way animals behave seems entirely appropriate, that is what we actually are.

After all, Nature produced us. Nature also seems to be the only force that has ever destroyed more of the environment than mankind. Compare human overpopulation to a major eruption of a mega-volcano, which can lay waste to a quarter of the globe in mere days.


You can not tease out the origin as being either our animal instincts or capitalism. There is no doubt regarding the synergy of the two having created the trajectory of imbalances. I will go so far as to acknowledge that capitalism as an economic system was probably inevitable in our civilizations trajectory. And so here we are.

OF course all of the species of life on the planet not able to manipulate their environments are subject to the laws of ecology regarding carrying capacity and population.

Of all the sentient species humans are the only ones to have ever existed on the planet with the power to create their own ecosystems. A beaver or bees in a colony do not qualify in their limited capacity. Dolphins in an aqueous marine environment with no apposing thumbs also do not qualify.

Even though humans are the only ones to manipulate and design their landscapes they are unable to date to design or manipulate their breeding and consumption and so we truly are the proverbial yeast in the petri dish....... the only difference to yeast is that we designed the petri dishes and their contents. But in every other way we are just like yeast.

Capitalism is a story whose final chapters have not yet been written. Will it destroy us or will it yield to adaptation when consequences force it to adapt. You can switch out the word capitalism and make the same sentence work by stating that our biological legacy that lead to civilization is a story whose final chapters have not yet been written.

It doesn't matter really which way you state it, they are both addressing the same question.

You don't draw conclusions on a book when you are 3/4 of the way through and haven't even reached the final chapters. I make no claims here regarding our civilizations ability to one day adapt and self regulate our breeding and consumption at the same time as maintaining civilization. I only know that if we do ever succeed in doing so it will happen from external consequences imposed on us. Otherwise we are exactly as you state..... just following our biological legacy and the outcome wont be pretty.

Capitalism is becoming rapidly obsolete. Will a new "ism" replace it?
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sun 02 Sep 2018, 11:30:08

No. Without any doubt whatsoever, NO.

Granting your point that we are the only species capable of building our own ecosystems, that is what we will do. We will move off the Earth and into space. Once the ecology on the planet has collapsed and most of the humans are dead, we might even take seeds and preserved DNA and engineer the new Earthly ecology.

Here's the point where most members chime in and say space habitats are no solution and won't save us. What everyone is forgetting is that evolution serves the human species, and is quite often savagely hard on the individual members of that species.

99+% of the humans will die along with the ecology of the planet. "Die" is not the exact word, "die-off" might be closer. We have had mass extinctions before that destroyed more than 95% of all plants and animals, we are gonna have another. But it has been estimated that 3500 individuals can preserve the complet human DNA. If you are only intersted in a viable subset of that DNA, as few as 50 individuals would suffice.

Almost everybody else on the planet eventually dies. WE won't be around when it happens, but our grandkids might be. I still think the major impact will come from FF exhaustion, followed by war.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby Ibon » Sun 02 Sep 2018, 14:33:06

I pose questions KJ. You come back with certainty in your convictions.

I have no certainty in regards to the future. The broad strokes are clear, we will pass through a transitional bottleneck. More than that one cannot say.

In fact, to place certainty on what is unknowable means that you have already a fixed narrative that you want to happen which then makes you bend objective reality to fit your narrative. You grew up believing yourself to be an exceptional american. You believe you live in the greatest country the world has ever had. You believe deeply in the exceptionalism of the USA and that it represents a frontier of sorts. Have you ever considered that your space narrative is just a projection into the future of this exceptionalism? That space colonies actually represents the next step in Americas manifest destiny? If it happens it might be the Chinese of course. They have the money, the smarts, the ambition and the incentive being so massively overcrowded. Of course it is not impossible but to be fixed on that as a certainty is frankly deranged.

What about humans eating some humble pie and actually figuring out how to live in balance with their home planet?

Which option is actually more feasible?

Most of the posters on this website disagree with me as well about the probability of humans ever living in some steady state balance here on earth. From all the past threads during 15 years when we touch on this I am the outlier optimist that actually believes consequences have the possibility to create a new "ism" a whole new spiritual value system in regards to our existence on this planet.

Most here I think believe we are going back to a tribal primitive state or that we will go extinct. Almost no one on this site I have communicated with through the years believes we will pass through the bottle neck with some new cultural transformation in how we breed, consume and share living space with our fellow flora and fauna.

I pose it as a possibility not as a certainty though.

Boy do we need some serious pandemics and disruptions coming along soon. Some draconian climate change crop failures. I must confess where my internal narrative distorts my perspective. I would like to see the opening acts before I pass.... even if it takes me out..... that way I can rest in peace.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby onlooker » Sun 02 Sep 2018, 14:57:52

""I pose questions KJ. You come back with certainty in your convictions. "
First off, like to say I have enjoyed many posts here since I have been a member and even before as a lurker haha. I also, think that we have no way of knowing exactly what will happen. Recently, I said something to the effect that to seek harmony and peace was my preference individually and that perhaps collectively we would do better to also be more into this mode. Kaiser retorted that I was already half dead then. I do believe this new cultural transformation requires that we hold a Harmony and Peace on a Pedestal. Look also at our social ills throughout the planet. People subsumed in a merry go round of pleasure seeking, reality altering experiences, deviant behavior of all kinds, anxiety and depression. We can talks volumes about technical and logistic matters of coming out of the bottleneck but if our inner selves are not at peace and seeking peace, I fear we will be once again ready to retread the same dead end path. The scant survivors that Kaiser refers to in all probability may kill each other or die in space etc. It seems almost bizarre to entertain the idea of giving up on Earth to go forth into the unknown and inhospitable Cosmos. I, for one would not even wish to be one of those few survivors if that is how it will play out. I hold guarded optimsm that Ibon's vignette and fantasy may in fact come to be.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sun 02 Sep 2018, 15:06:20

I think you are all under a misconception. I began reading Science Fiction at age 10 in 1961. I have seen the vast majority of SF predictions fall and be surpassed several decades before the fictional version's timeline. In fact, if this proves anything, that would be that Asimov, Clarke, Huxley, Heinlein, Simak, Dick, etc. suffered from a lack of imagination and were far too conservative.

I have absolute confidence in my predictions. In fact I know I suffer from a lack of imagination, and will be chuckling at my own naiveté before my death. My visions are far too conservative and limited.

To those of you who still have doubts about technology: Did you not learn anything in the last half century?

As for the culture of humanity, it lags the technology, and it always will.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby radon1 » Fri 12 Apr 2019, 15:34:39

To the discussion that "capitalism is so superior and socialism failed everywhere":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnDxHTaeNX0

Fresh video from the center of Europe right under your nose.

This is not to say that capitalism is bad or in any way to blame for anything discussed in there.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Fri 12 Apr 2019, 16:15:01

The simplistic terms "capitalism" and "socialism" of course do not begin to describe what we are comparing. The USA is not a capitalist economy, it is a regulated economy in a constitutional republic. The former USSR was not socialist, it was a planned Communist economy. The various oligharchies that were spawned by the breakup of the USSR are niether socialist nor communist nor capitalist, and they definately are unregulated. The people of those countries do suffer under the oligharchs.

For the record, I HAVE heard of Muldova, but would not be able to point to it on a map.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby Ibon » Sat 13 Apr 2019, 08:25:23

KaiserJeep wrote:
As for the culture of humanity, it lags the technology, and it always will.


Humility also seems to be lagging behind technology, but it wont always be the case.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby onlooker » Sat 13 Apr 2019, 10:04:54

Ibon wrote:
KaiserJeep wrote:
As for the culture of humanity, it lags the technology, and it always will.


Humility also seems to be lagging behind technology, but it wont always be the case.

Reminds me of tge quote which says something to the effect that, the problem with humans is they have paleolithic emotions, medieval institutions and godlike technology.
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Re: Socialism Leads to Misery and Destitution

Unread postby Ibon » Sat 13 Apr 2019, 10:46:58

onlooker wrote:
Ibon wrote:
KaiserJeep wrote:
As for the culture of humanity, it lags the technology, and it always will.


Humility also seems to be lagging behind technology, but it wont always be the case.

Reminds me of tge quote which says something to the effect that, the problem with humans is they have paleolithic emotions, medieval institutions and godlike technology.


It is the problem with modern humans. 99% of our species past, prior to modern industrial technology, you could find humans with a cultural set of rules that integrated them with more humility in the natural world. Some argue against this premise stating that they just simply hadn't evolved the technology to exploit to the degree that modern industrial humans have.

There is another argument though. Many of our human ancestors had an orientation toward our mother earth which held the water, land, rivers and sky as more sacred elements and thus their use of technology was held within the boundary of this sacredness. And this actually kept these cultures stable and within carrying capacity for a far longer period of time then say modern industrial civilization.

As KJ for example loves to expound on the success of humans he should consider that success can also be defined as the ability to exist for long periods of time in a stable harmonious relationship with our mother earth. In that sense modern industrial civilization is a failure not a success when compared to past human cultures.

No I am not espousing some romantic noble savage premise here. The archaeological evidence speaks for itself.

The voices of these past cultures have been extinguished, replaced with digital garbage.

I look at the sea of Kudzu Apes and I see degraded decadent human beings. We weren't always like this.
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