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Runaway Global Warming - Has Arrived pt 15

Re: Planet Now Heading Toward 'Hothouse Earth' State

Unread postby Pops » Tue 07 Aug 2018, 10:33:33

The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
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Re: Planet Now Heading Toward 'Hothouse Earth' State

Unread postby Cog » Tue 07 Aug 2018, 10:48:07

Pops wrote:Luckily we got out of that worthless Paris agreement, plant, we're much better off, even better, freezing the unprofitable CAFE standards will help cool the planet, now if only gov.moonbeam would quit diverting rivers to the ocean the fires would go out...

.


Involuntarily you are correct about the Paris agreement being worthless. As has been discussed, while you were away for a year and a half doing things only best left to the imagination. But I'm imagining you saw that Trump was erasing your messiah's legacy and knew it was your duty was to bless us back with your presence to correct the record.
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Re: Planet Now Heading Toward 'Hothouse Earth' State

Unread postby rangerone314 » Tue 07 Aug 2018, 11:15:29

I have a lack of faith that humans will constrain their breeding.
An ideology is by definition not a search for TRUTH-but a search for PROOF that its point of view is right

Equals barter and negotiate-people with power just take

You cant defend freedom by eliminating it-unknown

Our elected reps should wear sponsor patches on their suits so we know who they represent-like Nascar-Roy
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Re: Planet Now Heading Toward 'Hothouse Earth' State

Unread postby Plantagenet » Tue 07 Aug 2018, 11:28:03

Pops wrote: now if only gov.moonbeam would quit diverting rivers to the ocean the fires would go out...


I thought you liked gov. moonbeam. :lol:

And the fires in California aren't going out ever again---at least not until the trees all burn off.

California is changing from a Mediteranean temperate climate to a desert climate because of global warming. The current forest biomes can't survive there under the new hotter drier climate regime so they are burning off.
California's future is a climate like the one found today in Baja California just a few hundred miles to the south---i.e. a hot dry desert that is inhospitable to trees.

Cheers!
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Re: Planet Now Heading Toward 'Hothouse Earth' State

Unread postby Cog » Tue 07 Aug 2018, 12:18:27

You mean like the Sacramento river which California has refused to impound/dam because of some endangered species that live at its conjunction with the Pacific Ocean? Yeah that water that flows to the Pacific.
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Re: Planet Now Heading Toward 'Hothouse Earth' State

Unread postby Pops » Tue 07 Aug 2018, 13:00:24

Plantagenet wrote:
Pops wrote: now if only gov.moonbeam would quit diverting rivers to the ocean the fires would go out...


I thought you liked gov. moonbeam. :lol:

And the fires in California aren't going out ever again---at least not until the trees all burn off.

California is changing from a Mediteranean temperate climate to a desert climate because of global warming. The current forest biomes can't survive there under the new hotter drier climate regime so they are burning off.
California's future is a climate like the one found today in Baja California just a few hundred miles to the south---i.e. a hot dry desert that is inhospitable to trees.

Cheers!

LOL, "stop diverting rivers to the ocean" was the innate pronouncement from the Whitehouse when granting emergency aid.

But yeah, between the drought and the beetle and the fires they are disappearing.
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
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Re: Planet Now Heading Toward 'Hothouse Earth' State

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Tue 07 Aug 2018, 13:28:35

Pops wrote:Luckily we got out of that worthless Paris agreement, plant, we're much better off, even better, freezing the unprofitable CAFE standards will help cool the planet, now if only gov.moonbeam would quit diverting rivers to the ocean the fires would go out...
.

Certainly, freezing the CAFE standards is just beyond stupid. Even if CO2 weren't an issue, it's far better for the US (which is still a net importer of oil) to have far better fleet fuel economy, just on a purely economic basis. But yeah, given what's going on with the climate, only a true denier could like that. Hell, the ICE car makers don't want to freeze it completely (although they do, predicatably, want "relief".)

https://www.npr.org/2018/08/04/63566837 ... -standards

The Paris Climate Accords would impress me a lot more if they weren't mostly about agreeing to give the can a hard kick down the road and let future politicians deal with the issue.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Planet Now Heading Toward 'Hothouse Earth' State

Unread postby jedrider » Tue 07 Aug 2018, 13:43:52

Cog wrote:You mean like the Sacramento river which California has refused to impound/dam because of some endangered species that live at its conjunction with the Pacific Ocean? Yeah that water that flows to the Pacific.


Yes, why respect nature? However, it won't show any respect towards us in return.

That little fish is just an INDICATOR species. It's disappearance demonstrates lost of habitat. Eventually, OUR habitat as well.
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Re: Planet Now Heading Toward 'Hothouse Earth' State

Unread postby Pops » Tue 07 Aug 2018, 14:12:07

jedrider wrote:
Cog wrote:You mean like the Sacramento river which California has refused to impound/dam because of some endangered species that live at its conjunction with the Pacific Ocean? Yeah that water that flows to the Pacific.


Yes, why respect nature? However, it won't show any respect towards us in return.

That little fish is just an INDICATOR species. It's disappearance demonstrates lost of habitat. Eventually, OUR habitat as well.

Shasta dam is on the Sacramento, the largest res in CA.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category: ... iver_basin
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
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Re: Planet Now Heading Toward 'Hothouse Earth' State

Unread postby jedrider » Tue 07 Aug 2018, 18:22:17

Well, the confusion probably often arises:

California’s Sacramento-San Joaquin River Delta and the Endangered Species Act
http://sites.uci.edu/energyobserver/2017/02/17/californias-sacrament-san-joaquin-river-delta-and-the-endangered-species-act/

The California water projects get a lot of fresh water from the Delta, up to 25%, sent south to farmers and cities. What is often ignored, is that a lot of the water flow to the San Francisco Bay is to keep out salt water to the Delta from the ocean, at least during the summer, since the Delta has been sinking, and is below sea level. There are 74 kinds of fish in the Delta, including two thirds of California’s salmon, which use the Delta to go upstream to spawn. The endangered fish is the delta smelt, which unfortunately, has been dying off anyway, by unknown factors. This keeps water flowing to the Bay and ocean, and limits fresh water diversion. There are also farmers on the Delta who use the non-diverted water, and an involved, multi-species ecology, including being a stopover for migrating birds.


So, the Sacramento River has nothing to do with Sacramento :-D
Last edited by jedrider on Tue 07 Aug 2018, 19:24:30, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Planet Now Heading Toward 'Hothouse Earth' State

Unread postby Cog » Tue 07 Aug 2018, 18:28:38

Pops wrote:
jedrider wrote:
Cog wrote:You mean like the Sacramento river which California has refused to impound/dam because of some endangered species that live at its conjunction with the Pacific Ocean? Yeah that water that flows to the Pacific.


Yes, why respect nature? However, it won't show any respect towards us in return.

That little fish is just an INDICATOR species. It's disappearance demonstrates lost of habitat. Eventually, OUR habitat as well.

Shasta dam is on the Sacramento, the largest res in CA.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category: ... iver_basin


This might shock you, but you can build multiple dams on the same river. The point remains that a lot of the fresh water is allowed to go to the Pacific Ocean because some environmentalists care more about some fish than they do humans. California normal I suppose.
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Re: Planet Now Heading Toward 'Hothouse Earth' State

Unread postby Pops » Tue 07 Aug 2018, 19:26:26

jedrider wrote:Well, the confusion probably often arises:

So, the Sacramento River has nothing to do with Sacramento :-D

The Sacramento flows down the Central Valley from Lake Shasta, the Sierras & Cascades in the north. Along the way it has a bunch of tributaries including the Trinity, Feather, American, etc most with their own dams. Sacramento is where it enters what was once the northern reach of the delta, hence Sacramento River! Sacramento and the delta is in the middle of the valley, the San Joaquin River drains the southern valley, it comes in around Tracy on the southern edge of the old Delta (it only passes by "San Joaquin" LOL)

Maybe the confusion is saying the water comes "from" the delta. Northern CA is wetter than the Southern Central Valley. The whole Central Valley Project is based on that fact: move the water from the north to the south. But instead of building a canal from Shasta in the north to Bakersfield in the south, the water flows down the Sacramento channel into the Delta. Then it is pumped up into the Delta Mendota canal and from there with gravity (mostly) to the south.

The Central Valley is in a big granite/clay bowl, with maybe 10" of rain and 100" of evaporation so it gets irrigated with snowmelt. Thing about that is, the water picks up minerals along the way and when you put it on fields and the water evaporates it leaves the minerals behind. If you don't make allowance for drainage and "diverting rivers to the ocean" you wind up with salted and/or flooded ground. See Kesterson Reservoir.

So yeah, smelt. And McCloud river. And quit growing cotton where it don't belong. And outlaw flood irrigation, mandate household conservation, yadda yadda.

Sorry, maybe more than you wanted to know, but like lots of things there is more to it than fits the bumper sticker. :oops:
Last edited by Pops on Tue 07 Aug 2018, 19:57:27, edited 2 times in total.
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
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Re: Planet Now Heading Toward 'Hothouse Earth' State

Unread postby kiwichick » Tue 07 Aug 2018, 19:46:28

Want to make a difference?

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... r-children

One less child makes a bigger impact than anything else
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Re: Planet Now Heading Toward 'Hothouse Earth' State

Unread postby dissident » Tue 07 Aug 2018, 21:47:56

I don't buy it. Jevon's paradox is real. Even if we went to 3.5 billion humans today, the CO2 released into the atmosphere would not stop but would take not that much longer to be released. Resource use does not linearly scale with the number of consumers. Instantaneously it seems to do so, but constant use per consumer cannot be assumed. So having less humans on this planet would mean the return of the boat cars of the 1960s and 1970s and the propagation of this lifestyle to the rest of the planet. It is quite easy to see how in this "ideal" reduced population world we could have twice the CO2 emissions per capita.

It it is not about faith in human reproduction. It is lack of faith in intelligent collective behaviour of humans.
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Re: Planet Now Heading Toward 'Hothouse Earth' State

Unread postby Plantagenet » Tue 07 Aug 2018, 22:03:45

dissident wrote: Even if we went to 3.5 billion humans today, the CO2 released into the atmosphere would not stop...It it is not about faith in human reproduction. It is lack of faith in intelligent collective behaviour of humans.


Yup.

We should be talking about an international treaty that will reduce fossil fuel use and CO2 and CH4 releases to the atmosphere across the globe. Global warming is going to get worse and worse and cutting global greenhouse gas emissions is the only thing that will help.

But thanks to Obama, we're saddled with the phony Paris Accords that call for INCREASES in CO2 emissions, and thanks to Trump the whole subject of climate change is now verboten in DC.

Its crazy. Its stupid. Its going to be the death of us.

Cheers!
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People who buy new cars and then cry crocodile tears over climate change. The manufacture of a typical new car emits ca. 16 tons of CO2 and a new EV is actually much worse since the battery also has to be manufactured, resulting in a total carbon footprint of ca. 30 tons of CO2
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Re: Planet Now Heading Toward 'Hothouse Earth' State

Unread postby jedrider » Tue 07 Aug 2018, 23:11:44

Pops, thanks for the lecture on the Sacramento River. I've been to it, but I had no idea it came from Shasta Lake region.

Humans, what a stupid bunch that don't even take the time to understand the world around them.

Wikipedia Sacramento River Winter-run Chinook Salmon
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/73/Web_pdfs_srwr_chinook.pdf
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Re: Planet Now Heading Toward 'Hothouse Earth' State

Unread postby kiwichick » Wed 08 Aug 2018, 04:12:18

@ Diss .....not sure the researchers are worried whether you buy it or not

A Hothouse planet is unlikely to have 3.5 billion humans living on it ......the estimates I have seen are generally 1 billion or less

My opinion , based on 30 years experience in agricultural systems , is that 1 billion is being extremely optimistic
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Re: Planet Now Heading Toward 'Hothouse Earth' State

Unread postby Pops » Wed 08 Aug 2018, 08:37:00

jedrider wrote:Pops, thanks for the lecture on the Sacramento River. I've been to it, but I had no idea it came from Shasta Lake region.

I was raised in the San Joaquin, off topic but it's maybe surprising how big a part the irrigation system played in my upbringing. In the near desert of the valley, canals were the fishing and swimming holes for country kids. Though it's a valley there was no nearby "point" so teenagers spent many moonlit hour on canal banks, doing this and that. One of my earliest memories is the family awake in the middle of the night searching for the neighbor kid my age who fell in the canal bordering our ranches and drowned.
Catching carp in "The Main" isn't fishing Norman Maclean's Blackfoot by any stretch but relatively clean running water is quite the draw.

<<now back to your regularly scheduled doom>> :-D


(edit, it's the Blackfoot, not bigfoot, lol)
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
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Re: Planet Now Heading Toward 'Hothouse Earth' State

Unread postby dohboi » Wed 08 Aug 2018, 10:03:52

Pops wrote (w clog quote):
LOL, "stop diverting rivers to the ocean" was the ina[n]e pronouncement from the Whitehouse when granting emergency aid


More on that here:

Even the White House can't explain President Donald Trump's tweets suggesting California environmental laws have worsened wildfires raging in that state.

On Tuesday, administration officials declined to offer any clarity on Trump's series of tweets claiming environmental laws and water regulations in California are hampering the state's ability to fight the wildfires. Wildfire experts and local officials say the President's claims simply don't hold up.


And yet certain...characters...around here just recite every inane word that drops from the Twitler in Chiefs tweets as if they are gospel...sad, really...

https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/07/politics ... index.html
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Re: Planet Now Heading Toward 'Hothouse Earth' State

Unread postby dohboi » Wed 08 Aug 2018, 10:06:23

kc wrote:
...based on 30 years experience in agricultural systems , is that 1 billion is being extremely optimistic


I'd love to hear more on your experience and insight on this.
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