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Study: Economic Inequity Spawn Eco-Destruction

Warning to Humanity -second notice

Unread postby onlooker » Thu 28 Dec 2017, 20:18:14

https://academic.oup.com/bioscience/art ... 26/4605229
On the twenty-fifth anniversary of their call, we look back at their warning and evaluate the human response by exploring available time-series data. Since 1992, with the exception of stabilizing the stratospheric ozone layer, humanity has failed to make sufficient progress in generally solving these foreseen environmental challenges, and alarmingly, most of them are getting far worse

Humanity is now being given a second notice, as illustrated by these alarming trends (figure 1). We are jeopardizing our future by not reining in our intense but geographically and demographically uneven material consumption and by not perceiving continued rapid population growth as a primary driver behind many ecological and even societal threats (Crist et al. 2017). By failing to adequately limit population growth, reassess the role of an economy rooted in growth, reduce greenhouse gases, incentivize renewable energy, protect habitat, restore ecosystems, curb pollution, halt defaunation, and constrain invasive alien species, humanity is not taking the urgent steps needed to safeguard our imperilled biosphere.
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Re: Warning to Humanity -second notice

Unread postby Cog » Thu 28 Dec 2017, 20:29:47

(l) revising our economy to reduce wealth inequality and ensure that prices, taxation, and incentive systems take into account the real costs which consumption patterns impose on our environment;

So make everyone poor is their solution. Communism attempted yet again. Come up with a different solution here and I might listen to the rest of your demands. What is with you guys in your "save the world" mode that always tips your hat to taking someone's wealth away? Do you really think that is going to save the planet? LOL
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Re: Warning to Humanity -second notice

Unread postby asg70 » Fri 29 Dec 2017, 11:08:10

Doomers have a lot of hubris over their survival plans. You're not immune from this.
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Re: Warning to Humanity -second notice

Unread postby GHung » Fri 29 Dec 2017, 11:19:13

asg70 wrote:Doomers have a lot of hubris over their survival plans. You're not immune from this.


Once again, you assign a label, "hubris", to others' determination to do what they can. None of my "preps" cost you a cent, and none of them threaten you in any way. Most 'preppers' also know there are no guarantees, except that those who have done nothing to mitigate their own circumstances will be busy pointing out flaws in their plans, and call it "hubris".

The only guarantee is that you won't be welcome at their campfire when your world comes apart.
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Re: Warning to Humanity -second notice

Unread postby Cog » Fri 29 Dec 2017, 11:34:19

Perhaps you doomers should just start mowing people down in the streets, especially Republicans. That is really what you want to do, so why keep hiding what you are?
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Re: Warning to Humanity -second notice

Unread postby GHung » Fri 29 Dec 2017, 12:38:34

Cog wrote:Perhaps you doomers should just start mowing people down in the streets, especially Republicans. That is really what you want to do, so why keep hiding what you are?


Cog reminds me a lot of my brother-in-law. His favorite thing to do at gatherings is to move slowly through the room, breaking a foul wind. Then he goes to a corner with a self-satisfied smirk and watches as the people in the room start blaming each other. In reality, he has nothing to add to the conversations going on there.
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Re: Warning to Humanity -second notice

Unread postby dohboi » Fri 29 Dec 2017, 12:40:53

:lol:
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Re: Warning to Humanity -second notice

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 29 Dec 2017, 12:51:42

I take it Ghung your brother in-law is not your favorite person haha. Anyway, as the creator of this thread I am obliged to keep it fairly on topic so here goes. Our species has overshot its carrying capacity period. Whether personal and local efforts by some amount too much in the next few years and decades remains to be seen. I look at it more like preparing for economic dislocation. For that assumes that one will still be living. So preparing and anticipating for how one will live the remainder of one's life is a bit different than simply trying to head off a premature death. It is always good to try and control what one can for one's and one's loved ones benefit.
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Re: Warning to Humanity -second notice

Unread postby Cid_Yama » Fri 29 Dec 2017, 13:02:30

Cog wrote:Perhaps you doomers should just start mowing people down in the streets, especially Republicans. That is really what you want to do, so why keep hiding what you are?


What you are experiencing is called projection. No one is wanting to mow anyone down but you.
Just as you've told us of your oft fantasized 'civil war', which would then give you justification to follow this urge.

You need professional help. Before we start hearing about you on the news.
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The level of injustice and wrong you endure is directly determined by how much you quietly submit to. Even to the point of extinction.
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Re: Warning to Humanity -second notice

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Fri 29 Dec 2017, 13:16:51

GHung wrote:
asg70 wrote:Doomers have a lot of hubris over their survival plans. You're not immune from this.


Once again, you assign a label, "hubris", to others' determination to do what they can. None of my "preps" cost you a cent, and none of them threaten you in any way. Most 'preppers' also know there are no guarantees, except that those who have done nothing to mitigate their own circumstances will be busy pointing out flaws in their plans, and call it "hubris".

Kind of like the "poor" folk who live and spend irresponsibly, and then depend on the government dole to get by. They call those whose property they insist on helping themselves to (via taxes on their earnings, redistributed) "greedy". But to liberals, this is normal and fine. It's all about context.

The only guarantee is that you won't be welcome at their campfire when your world comes apart.

And then you wonder why the responsible people who take care of themselves and their family, AND a chunk of the "poor" get tired of hearing how no matter how much they pay, if they are responsible or smart or hard working enough to get by and have some extra income (more likely some combination of all three), that they are greedy and mean and need to have significantly more of their wealth confiscated. For liberals, this tends to be a constant refrain no matter how high total taxes are.

(Unless it's a liberal who might lose a favored tax break, of course -- see the tax reform just passed, and how much the NYT whined about each and every tax preference a liberal might lose. Funny how that works).
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Warning to Humanity -second notice

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 29 Dec 2017, 13:20:52

Cog wrote:Perhaps you doomers should just start mowing people down in the streets, especially Republicans. That is really what you want to do, so why keep hiding what you are?


OK Cog, you’ve had a couple of folks respond to your troll.

Please respond with something thoughtful.
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Re: Warning to Humanity -second notice

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Fri 29 Dec 2017, 13:22:46

GHung wrote:The only guarantee is that you won't be welcome at their campfire when your world comes apart.


This might really blow your mind, but for the non-fast-crash doomer community, their "preps" might consist of living responsibly, saving and investing, and preparing for their retirement and old age. This might well include helping out family and friends who need it, and giving to what they deem to be worthy charities of THEIR choice (instead of paying more taxes to be arbitrarily spent and often wasted).

Again, it's all about context.

One difference is, barring premature death, we'll ALL get old and need resources to have a decent old age. Fast crash doom is pure speculation, especially the short term timing.
Last edited by Outcast_Searcher on Fri 29 Dec 2017, 13:23:08, edited 1 time in total.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Warning to Humanity -second notice

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 29 Dec 2017, 13:23:07

Off topic guys, hope we can get more back on topic
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Re: Warning to Humanity -second notice

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Fri 29 Dec 2017, 13:27:43

onlooker wrote:Off topic guys, hope we can get more back on topic

I'm confused. The OP was partly about inequality, implying more wealth redistribution is required to combat the consumption of the evil rich, yadda yadda.

So how is the general discussion about taxes (the wealth redistribution part) off topic?

What am I missing? If we're not talking about fast crash doom, is that now off topic?
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Warning to Humanity -second notice

Unread postby GHung » Fri 29 Dec 2017, 13:45:27

Outcast_Searcher wrote:This might really blow your mind, but for the non-fast-crash doomer community, their "preps" might consist of living responsibly, saving and investing, and preparing for their retirement and old age. This might well include helping out family and friends who need it, and giving to what they deem to be worthy charities of THEIR choice (instead of paying more taxes to be arbitrarily spent and often wasted).

Again, it's all about context.

One difference is, barring premature death, we'll ALL get old and need resources to have a decent old age. Fast crash doom is pure speculation, especially the short term timing.


Not sure if you assume we haven't done those things, but that assumption would be wrong. Indeed, most of the folks I know who live simpler more self-sufficient lives have actually freed up resources they can use to help others, and have a community of like-minded people.

Another off-grid friend whom I haven't seen in over a year heard I injured my back quite severely last summer, and that we were battling the flu last week. He showed up at my place out of the blue a few days ago with a truck-load of perfectly seasoned stove wood. I had helped him build and tweak his solar system about 12 years ago, and to do a few other things, without accepting any monetary compensation. He and I will always value that sort of relationship for a lot of reasons, over-and-above your typical "I pay you to work" deal. That sort of social capital can't be taxed, and is its own kind of bank. That isn't something that an economic downturn can have much effect on. Indeed, when things get tough, economically, those investments can grow quickly, organically.

That said, we still have savings, modest investments, and health insurance; all that, but we value that social capital above anything else besides family, and an ability to not stress out when much of the world does. That sort of person is always welcome at my campfire, unlike those who scoff at those of us who would limit their contributions to society's insanities, and, getting more back to the topic, limit our consumption and contribution to global warming.

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Re: Warning to Humanity -second notice

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 29 Dec 2017, 13:49:56

Outcast_Searcher wrote:
onlooker wrote:Off topic guys, hope we can get more back on topic

I'm confused. The OP was partly about inequality, implying more wealth redistribution is required to combat the consumption of the evil rich, yadda yadda.

So how is the general discussion about taxes (the wealth redistribution part) off topic?

What am I missing? If we're not talking about fast crash doom, is that now off topic?

No, the original article I linked has nothing to do with that. It is some of you who have gotten into all this you just mentioned. You know the partisan stuff gets tiring after awhile especiallly when it seems to find its way into almost every thread. :x
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Re: Warning to Humanity -second notice

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Fri 29 Dec 2017, 14:24:08

All the angst and hand-wringing and even the more-in-sorrow-than-in-anger tone of the Elders (aka scientists in white lab coats) ignores the two basic problems:

Firstly the basic population overshoot that endangers the planet is a Third World problem. The hungry apes are the ones that reproduce so that the ape troop outnumbers it's neighbors and can take their food supplies and eat their carcasses after the two ape troops clash in combat. Yes, this is an analysis based on 20th Century Anthropology and it's not shared by those who still cling to religious precepts and obsolete concepts of mankind as a devinely inspired species. That does not matter ultimately, because this is the reason we have a problem, distilled down to the primate urges that drive almost all human behaviors.

Secondly the existing problem caused by overpopulation is that the Third World wants a First World lifestyle. They want more food than they need, personal motor vehicles, HVAC, liesure time, mobile electronics, etc. etc. Natural desires on their part, but the big problem here is there is not enough stuff in the whole world - food, energy, raw materials, living space, etc. etc. to give everybody everything they want. We who have the leisure time to reflect upon this problem understand it. Most of the First World is in the 1% category when we average over all 7.6+ billion people. That's the basic problem.

In fact even if we were to voluntarily cut back on our own lifestyles, and voluntarily reduce our consumption to say 10% of the present average (meaning about 1/4th of what a Welfare recipient gets today in the USA) that would still not be near enough - because your fair share in a World of 7.6+ Billlion people would be about 1.3% of what you have today, assuming you are an average US citizen. Are you willing to give away 98.7% and live on the remainder?

The truth be told, we can't bring 7.6+ Billions up to a minimally satisfactory lifestyle. There isn't enough clean water, food calories available, energy, or raw materials. Furthermore, you KNOW THIS ALREADY, if you have a brain, but most of you lack the courage to even discuss it.

As for solutions, I'll throw three out, just to get the discussion rolling:

The First World should exterminate the Third World, using all weapons including Chemical, Biological, and Nuclear weapons of mass destruction.

The First World should imprison the Third World in Gulags or perhaps Nazi style extermination camps, and use their forced labor to ensure our own extended long term comforts.

The First World should do nothing effective at all, which is what we do today, and the World sickens and dies because we won't act. This is the default position, and the most likely to occur. There may not in fact be any better alternative, it is certainly possible that anything and everything we can do will make things worse than they are today.

Those "wise men" in their white lab coats just gave you their second warning. You can bet that THEY understand the dire circumstances we are in. They lack the courage to confront and solve the problem as well. They would apply a balm on their conscience by warning you, without giving you a solution. Just as most of you lack the courage to confront the overpopulation crisis.

All the other problems we discuss derive from overpopulation. Malnutrition, water borne diseases, rampant cancers, energy shortages, fossil fuel peaks, financial conniptions, all of them are caused by too many people and not enough stuff to go around. I'm pretty sure most of you will endulge in some form of denial about what I just said, or ignore this thread altogether.

As Newfie told me yesterday, lots of problems, but no answers we want to hear.
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Re: Warning to Humanity -second notice

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Fri 29 Dec 2017, 15:09:28

KaiserJeep wrote:As for solutions, I'll throw three out, just to get the discussion rolling:

The First World should exterminate the Third World, using all weapons including Chemical, Biological, and Nuclear weapons of mass destruction.

The First World should imprison the Third World in Gulags or perhaps Nazi style extermination camps, and use their forced labor to ensure our own extended long term comforts.

The First World should do nothing effective at all, which is what we do today, and the World sickens and dies because we won't act. This is the default position, and the most likely to occur. There may not in fact be any better alternative, it is certainly possible that anything and everything we can do will make things worse than they are today.

Those solutions make a very important point, IMO:

If we tried to do as the liberal do-gooders would want, and use massive wealth redistribution (i.e. take from the producers in the first world) to help make the third wealthier and "better off", without addressing the fundamental issues that cause such massive third world reproduction rates, any such well meaning help would most likely just make the problem worse, and accelerate the bad cumulative effects.

Not that I'd expect such realism to enter the mainstream debate very often.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Warning to Humanity -second notice

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Fri 29 Dec 2017, 15:17:09

onlooker wrote:
Outcast_Searcher wrote:
onlooker wrote:Off topic guys, hope we can get more back on topic

I'm confused. The OP was partly about inequality, implying more wealth redistribution is required to combat the consumption of the evil rich, yadda yadda.

So how is the general discussion about taxes (the wealth redistribution part) off topic?

What am I missing? If we're not talking about fast crash doom, is that now off topic?

No, the original article I linked has nothing to do with that. It is some of you who have gotten into all this you just mentioned. You know the partisan stuff gets tiring after awhile especiallly when it seems to find its way into almost every thread. :x


Well, so why did I get that impression from this quote YOU put into the OP:

onlooker wrote:
Humanity is now being given a second notice, as illustrated by these alarming trends (figure 1). We are jeopardizing our future by not reining in our intense but geographically and demographically uneven material consumption and by not perceiving continued rapid population growth as a primary driver behind many ecological and even societal threats (Crist et al. 2017). By failing to adequately limit population growth, reassess the role of an economy rooted in growth, reduce greenhouse gases, incentivize renewable energy, protect habitat, restore ecosystems, curb pollution, halt defaunation, and constrain invasive alien species, humanity is not taking the urgent steps needed to safeguard our imperilled biosphere.


(Red font mine, for emphasis). Are you so used to complaining about consumption for the well off that you fail to recognize the implications for any solutions? (The wealthy (as in first world typical wealth) aren't going to give up their material possessions unless they are forced to).

But let's pretend the article has "nothing to do with that".
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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