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Environmentalism’s Worsening Anti-Human Infection

Environmentalism’s Worsening Anti-Human Infection

Unread postby AdamB » Sun 19 Nov 2017, 11:17:19


As I wrote in The War on Humans, environmentalism has become increasingly anti-human, both in proposed policies — such as those that would reduce economic vitality and thwart human thriving — and in the goal of reducing human population. The latter goal would require particularly tyrannical impositions to actually effectuate. Voluntary family planning offers great benefits. But actually reducing our numbers would require iron-fisted tyrannical measures. After all, China’s brutal one-child policy has only slowed the country’s population growth. The actual Chinese population has not diminished — and the slowed growth came at tremendous cost to the happiness of the people and profoundly distorted its demographics. Indeed, the demographic problem — tens of millions more men than women — that the policy spawned recently induced the Chinese tyranny to generously (he wrote sarcastically) allow its people to now have a


Environmentalism’s Worsening Anti-Human Infection
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Re: Environmentalism’s Worsening Anti-Human Infection

Unread postby evilgenius » Sun 19 Nov 2017, 12:41:45

Ok, so when a village of native Alaskans sets out in a boat and hunts down a whale, even if they don't need to for their physical survival, in order to fulfill something about their heritage, that is considered some kind of lofty thing. When an entire country does it, like Japan, out of what could be considered a similar thing, their cultural disposition to eat seafood, it is considered a tragedy. Either way, living things die. In both cases life was sustained also. In neither case was there a one for one trade off. The native Alaskans came closest because they don't have the same complex food distribution and production system that the Japanese do as a country and an economy. They might say that even though they didn't specifically learn something from having to hunt and eat for survival they got close enough to learn from the symbolism. But they could have left the whale in the sea and survived quite well.

I come from a culture of hunting. People in my family hunt. My friends hunt. I don't have anything bad to say about hunting, but I don't hunt. When I was young I killed a few things, like squirrels and birds. I did set out a few times to kill larger game, but couldn't get a safe shot off at the few that I saw. Along the way I realized I didn't have an inner compulsion to hunt. I was following an outer compulsion that I reckoned ought to meet with an inner compulsion. That inner compulsion simply never materialized. That was enough for me. I go to the store. I can read Hemingway to catch up on the rest.

Many people I know found that inner compulsion. They can wax poetically about the virtues of hunting. When they talk about it you can hear truths expressed in the metaphors that their experiences provide. It's very much like how sports fans use sports to talk about life. It's a boots on the ground philosophy about how the world is formed.

Despite there being a kind of nobility given to the opponent in these philosophies, especially in their more primitive one to one forms, there is not an equivalency. I don't know if that is what is required either. I think that is what environmentalists who criticize such things say about the juxtaposition of the players within the philosophical framework. But I think it has more to do with understanding the basis of fear, of not flinching when you discover your aloneness in the world. Knowing that alone was restraint enough to keep me from taking another thing's life. I had no need. There was no empty place that needed filling. In any case, if there was, it was inside me and could not, other people's fears aside, be touched by the outside world.

I discovered I didn't need what the outer compulsion, the urgency to be a part of the culture or the team, said I did. Others swung the opposite way. At some point, I suppose, some who made the sort of decision I made were caused to suffer by the cultures they came from. I was never made to suffer. I wasn't called names, or resented. I guess I was cut off from some secret group stuff where I might have missed out on bonding or economic opportunity. I reckon, however, that if I have any conviction at all about my understanding that I have what it takes to be a living being without the need to resort to the primal practices, then I can rise above any lack in my life that may exist as a result of not participating along with the others. If I needed a group to belong to, anyway, the existence of the grocery store was proof enough that one existed.

There are other ways to express primal needs, if one does discovers that one has them, than engaging in primal practices as well. Though, reasonably, for most people the primal contained in them provides something they don't feel they can get anywhere else. A person can, however, seek experiences. They can worship heroes. They can seek after their dreams on more advanced levels, using the symbolic language of the hunt, becoming their own personal hero. Or they can go beyond whether there is the need to maintain such a struggle at all, by seeking wisdom. The last one is the loneliest of all.
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Re: Environmentalism’s Worsening Anti-Human Infection

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sun 19 Nov 2017, 14:02:22

For all the discussion about "environmentalism" hurting business I haven't noticed much significant "damage". And I work in an industry that has been forced to modify its activities as new environmental regs came into effect. Those did cost money and time but nothing that disruptive despite some industry rhetoric. And all the new regs were necessary and reasonable IMO. Even the pain in the ass Louisiana regs. LOL.
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Re: Environmentalism’s Worsening Anti-Human Infection

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 19 Nov 2017, 15:37:15

Well it strikes me that environmentalism and economic growth are mutually exclusive, if you really think it through.

I consider myself an environmentalists, always have.

I don’t think that makes me anti-human. Quite the contrary, I would like to see some way humanity could figure out how to survive and thrive in concert with nature. What we are currently doing is a tragic mistake that will cause needless suffering for billions.

We have much to learn.
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Re: Environmentalism’s Worsening Anti-Human Infection

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 19 Nov 2017, 15:48:55

Have you ever watched Al Bartlett?

Where is the “intelligent society” you speak of?
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Re: Environmentalism’s Worsening Anti-Human Infection

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sun 19 Nov 2017, 15:57:42

As usual, the extremists on either side of the discussion/argument get rather silly, and neither side seems very good at reaching rational compromise.

The National Review is clearly a right wing publication, and the far right wing view that anything goes re destroying the environment isn't a viable long term policy. (Unless you ignore all bad effects like pollution, pretend AGW is a hoax, and pretend endless BAU growth with finite resources is no problem, ever).

On the left, instead of endless screeching about how evil the right is, some meaningful action like actually proposing and voting for solid carbon taxes to mitigate how much carbon we put into the air would be a good start. But this isn't happening in the US, even in liberal strongholds like Washington state (where proposition 732 was soundly defeated about a year ago, as the left would rather fight over details than get anything done -- including actually PAYING even a small CO2 tax).

Until something meaningful changes, it will be BAU as, let's face it, the VAST majority of people and the politicians they elect/re-elect support a lifestyle embracing all the material wealth people can earn and borrow to obtain -- and to hell with the environment (beyond blaming someone other than themselves for any problems, of course).

After all the arm waving -- I don't expect much to change for decades, except for more green energy and cars -- when they are produced for ECONOMIC reasons vs. their FF counterparts.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Environmentalism’s Worsening Anti-Human Infection

Unread postby evilgenius » Mon 20 Nov 2017, 12:54:01

Newfie wrote:Well it strikes me that environmentalism and economic growth are mutually exclusive, if you really think it through.

I consider myself an environmentalists, always have.

I don’t think that makes me anti-human. Quite the contrary, I would like to see some way humanity could figure out how to survive and thrive in concert with nature. What we are currently doing is a tragic mistake that will cause needless suffering for billions.

We have much to learn.


I take it you mean that all environmental regulation will necessarily come with a cost. Those costs are considered detrimental to a corporation, as a matter of course. But that's only a division of accounting, cost accounting. A better look reckons that though things comes with a cost, decisions are always to be made evaluating the long term as well as the short term impact of those costs. The long term, without paying, may come with too high a probability for a black swan event that materially threatens the company. That, alone, should come into the original equation, and tilt what are considered the basic costs, not optional, to include perhaps, even, the cost of regulations yet to come.
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Re: Environmentalism’s Worsening Anti-Human Infection

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 20 Nov 2017, 17:04:19

Your loosely describing risk analysis. Yes, it is sadly lacking.
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Re: Environmentalism’s Worsening Anti-Human Infection

Unread postby evilgenius » Tue 21 Nov 2017, 11:07:22

Yeah, because as true of an analysis as possible is necessary when considering the future. Given how much uncertainty that entails, the widest net is cast. That net can catch some pretty bad things, including climate change reality. And that sort of thing is important enough to swing choices, like disappearing coal plants and whether solar farms make sense. It makes you wonder, even, about what sort of liability states which actively take away solar subsidies might face in the future. What sort of legacies the politicians who did that will have in the public eye.
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Re: Environmentalism’s Worsening Anti-Human Infection

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Tue 21 Nov 2017, 16:44:44

evilgenius wrote: That net can catch some pretty bad things, including climate change reality. And that sort of thing is important enough to swing choices, like disappearing coal plants and whether solar farms make sense. It makes you wonder, even, about what sort of liability states which actively take away solar subsidies might face in the future. What sort of legacies the politicians who did that will have in the public eye.

As if there were any meaningful indication that US politicians generally care about anything other than:

1). Self-enrichment and power.

2). Getting re-elected. (See 1).

3). Helping out their buddies and various lobbies for profits. (See 1).

Legacy? As long as that doesn't include a long prison sentence in a REAL prison, don't make me laugh. (And seriously, how often does that happen to politicians, no matter how egregious their behavior?)
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Environmentalism’s Worsening Anti-Human Infection

Unread postby evilgenius » Wed 22 Nov 2017, 12:18:16

Well, most states have hero politicians. They name certain projects after them. They are still fondly remembered in the press. Likewise, why not those whose infamy keeps them centered in the public's mind. I can see where, if global warming becomes the thing it might, in retrospect those politicians in various states who had a lot to do with taking away the arrangement allowing people to sell their excess power to the grid from home solar might qualify.
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Re: Environmentalism’s Worsening Anti-Human Infection

Unread postby onlooker » Wed 22 Nov 2017, 12:35:02

This OP article and premise is hogwash. First off, Environmentalism is precisely not addressing with any conviction the impact of Modern Industrial Civilizations in our overshoot dilemma.
It has offered superficial cosmetic changes to our Economic system wholly inadequate to slowing much less stopping all the ways modern humans negatively impact the Environment. And it glosses over Overpopulation instead of highlighting it as the principal manner we are in Overshoot of our planetary environment.

But most egregious it pointedly states that rather than these issues being central to our predicament, they go against humans. Incredible :cry:
"We are mortal beings doomed to die
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Re: Environmentalism’s Worsening Anti-Human Infection

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Wed 22 Nov 2017, 13:14:08

evilgenius wrote:Well, most states have hero politicians. They name certain projects after them. They are still fondly remembered in the press. Likewise, why not those whose infamy keeps them centered in the public's mind. I can see where, if global warming becomes the thing it might, in retrospect those politicians in various states who had a lot to do with taking away the arrangement allowing people to sell their excess power to the grid from home solar might qualify.

I'm not disagreeing that there will be a legacy, or saying that the legacy won't matter.

(And yes, I'm extremely PISSED at politicians screwing up the home solar industry in places like Nevada re selling excess power back to the utilities, where customers had long term CONTRACTUAL agreements. Not that such politicians care a bit what I think).

I'm opining that, given the way the vast majority of powerful politicians behave, that they don't CARE much about their legacy, vs. self enrichment.

(Trump apparently cares about both how he is perceived and self enrichment, but he (IMO) is thus far, an outlier as far as US politicians.)
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Environmentalism’s Worsening Anti-Human Infection

Unread postby dohboi » Wed 22 Nov 2017, 21:24:41

ol, yes, the OP article is idiotic where it isn't simply incoherent, as is the title of the thread. I just avoid the whole thing hoping it will fade into the obscurity it deserves, but people seem to want to keep bumping it.
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