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Economics and Suicides

Unread postby onlooker » Thu 30 Mar 2017, 21:51:25

Well, the statistics back up the notion that economic well being is a primary concern of people
https://thinkprogress.org/study-the-gre ... 420f12a1a0
STUDY: The Great Recession Caused A Sharp Rise In Suicides Around The World
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Re: Economics and Suicides

Unread postby Hawkcreek » Fri 31 Mar 2017, 00:27:58

Well, I ain't gonna do it. I'm trying to get back a little of that social security money I paid in all those years. I have to live at least 15 more years just to break even. :)
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Re: Economics and Suicides

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 31 Mar 2017, 02:46:22

Hawkcreek wrote:Well, I ain't gonna do it. I'm trying to get back a little of that social security money I paid in all those years. I have to live at least 15 more years just to break even. :)

nice to hear that, now that is happy talk :)
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Re: Economics and Suicides

Unread postby EdwinSm » Fri 31 Mar 2017, 02:48:37

I have long thought that there would be an increase in suicides if things got bad.

But in any Post Peak Oil situation they will barely make a tiny scratch let alone a dent in the overall population figures, unless there is a truly astronomical rise the rate of suicides (that is far, far, far above the figures reported in the linked article). The current figures are just so small, and this by itself will not bring the population down to a more sustainable level.
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Re: Economics and Suicides

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 31 Mar 2017, 02:54:32

onlooker wrote:The Great Recession Caused A Sharp Rise In Suicides


I'm sure the Great Recession didn't help, but the beginning of the rise in suicides in the US pre-dates the Great Recession by 13 years, and the suicide rate has continued to increase every year for the last 8 years since the Great Recession. The rise in death rate has now been going on for over 20 years---its related to some bigger secular economic trend -----its not just due to the recession

The group showing the biggest increase in suicide rates is middle-age and older white males. This is the group that has been hardest hit by the long term destruction of manufacturing jobs in the US, the collapse of union jobs in the US, and the increasing competition from low-way immigrant labor. People who once had good paying union jobs now earn minimum wage as a greeters as WalMart---its a bummer. Middle-aged and older white males are also the ones whose death rate is soaring due to opiod drug deaths and other overdose drug deaths. And finally, this same group is the one that flipped most dramatically to vote for Trump. They are really hurting.

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Middle aged white males in the USA are in a world of hurt
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Re: Economics and Suicides

Unread postby Shaved Monkey » Fri 31 Mar 2017, 02:56:34

Plantagenet wrote: And finally, this same group is the one that flipped most dramatically to vote for Trump. They are really hurting.
Middle aged white males in the USA are in a world of hurt
[/quote]
I predict way way way way more pain
That stupid decision is going to bite them hard
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Re: Economics and Suicides

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 31 Mar 2017, 03:01:01

my link was referencing global figures. Nice info, Plant though
Odd, how some posters including me are up at ungodly hours haha
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Re: Economics and Suicides

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 31 Mar 2017, 03:06:34

onlooker wrote:Odd, how some posters including me are up at ungodly hours haha


Yup. I hope nobody out there has been thinking deep dark depressing thoughts all night --- stumbling on this thread could push them right over the edge.

I've got an excuse to be up this late---I've got to pick somebody up from a plane that comes in at 1:58 am.

Cheers!
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Re: Economics and Suicides

Unread postby MD » Fri 31 Mar 2017, 03:34:29

All I can say is: those that are contemplating a self-directed exit need to consider what they might miss, and more importantly, what small thing they might be able to do that could make a difference. Take a "pay it forward" attitude. Help someone, even when you have nothing left. A smile at the right time to a child, or a helping hand to an elderly person that needs a step-up, or water a plant, or feed a bird, or... anything that comes into your path. If you are sad and suicidal, give life a happy nudge, and keep watching the show.

That's advice from someone near the end of the road (not self-directed). It's all good!
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Re: Economics and Suicides

Unread postby Cog » Fri 31 Mar 2017, 04:30:07

No way I'm going to miss all the drama the doomers have been going on about for decades.
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Re: Economics and Suicides

Unread postby sparky » Fri 31 Mar 2017, 05:03:16

.
Same here , no way I'll leave the show until dragged out on a date with the dark lady ,
sorry Morticia , you're cute and all .......but it's nor even half time !
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Re: Economics and Suicides

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 31 Mar 2017, 06:50:07

Plantagenet wrote:The rise in death rate has now been going on for over 20 years---its related to some bigger secular economic trend -----its not just due to the recession

The group showing the biggest increase in suicide rates is middle-age and older white males. They are really hurting.


I would like to better understand this. Suicides represent the tip of the iceberg. Opiate addiction rates are very much related. Inability to deal with loss of status and employment, inability to pick yourself up off our feet. The choice to often is escape in drugs or suicide.

I really would like to get a better handle on deeper underlying psychology here on why white males in the US so quickly despair when faced with hardships vs other demographic groups.

Any ideas?
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Re: Economics and Suicides

Unread postby Cog » Fri 31 Mar 2017, 07:38:07

For many white males, they anchor themselves so firmly in their jobs, their jobs become who they are. If they lose that job for whatever reason, even retirement, they struggle to find some meaning to their existence. At least that is my 2 cents on it.
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Re: Economics and Suicides

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 31 Mar 2017, 07:55:13

I think its partly what Cog said but also in general what you Ibon have talked about, how people in rich have that sense of entitlement. So when faced with adversity, such people can become quite anguished or depressed. Also, I think it has something with male psychology in which men are less apt to let out their feelings and seek communion with who may be experiencing similar adversities. So, they suffer in silence and it takes a toll.
By, the way MD,a touching post from you. Thanks
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Re: Economics and Suicides

Unread postby AdamB » Fri 31 Mar 2017, 08:24:10

onlooker wrote:Well, the statistics back up the notion that economic well being is a primary concern of people
https://thinkprogress.org/study-the-gre ... 420f12a1a0
STUDY: The Great Recession Caused A Sharp Rise In Suicides Around The World


Like the anecdotal evidence from the Great Depression didn't tell us this the better part of a century ago?

The bummer in proving it, is that it is self reinforcing, we live in a particular kind of world, it values pretty stupid things (stuff), and when we don't think we have enough stuff, we internalize that as not being up to snuff. Change what we value and you change the entire game.

I've always told the kids that anyone can buy stuff, and respect is earned not by the size of your wallet but the attributes and skills that you can't buy. The fastest runner, the best ball player, the honest and fair, the caring you display and demonstrate, the understanding and insight that goes with a decade of study and experience.

Any moron can whip out a check book and buy a new car, and many do. Anyone can have a car bought for them by their family and pretend it increases their stature within a group, but it only works if everyone else falls for the stupid idea that your place on the socio-economic scale is determined by stuff you have, rather than who you are, and what you are good at.

Obviously, these ideas don't fit in well with those handing out participation awards so everyone can be special, because to be good at something, you are quite often better than most of those in your social circle, and competition demonstrating skills beyond the norm isn't to be appreciated. It screws with the meme. But it does turn out, as kid #1 understands very well now, to be very valuable when you go into the real world and competition is exactly what it is all about. There are 5 jobs available, and 100 people applying, and it isn't those who show up to just participate, or who's mommy and daddy bought them a car, that get them. But maybe when they realize what a load of crap they have been sold, and are unable to reverse course and get around that lifetime of habit, well, depending on how hard they take it, offing themselves is suddenly an option.

Our world, so full of precious snowflakes nowadays...
Last edited by AdamB on Fri 31 Mar 2017, 08:25:50, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Economics and Suicides

Unread postby MD » Fri 31 Mar 2017, 08:25:00

Ibon wrote:
Plantagenet wrote:The rise in death rate has now been going on for over 20 years---its related to some bigger secular economic trend -----its not just due to the recession

The group showing the biggest increase in suicide rates is middle-age and older white males. They are really hurting.


I would like to better understand this. Suicides represent the tip of the iceberg. Opiate addiction rates are very much related. Inability to deal with loss of status and employment, inability to pick yourself up off our feet. The choice to often is escape in drugs or suicide.

I really would like to get a better handle on deeper underlying psychology here on why white males in the US so quickly despair when faced with hardships vs other demographic groups.

Any ideas?


White males have been under attack for some time from Hollywood, the media, political correctness, and "reverse racism" agendas (a term hated and dismissed by "tolerant" ideologues).

It's OK to to denigrate and make jokes about white males these days.

I'm reminded of a conversation that I had with with my fine and oh so cultured southern grandfather, fifty years ago. He made some condescending and dismissive comments about "colored folk".

I asked. "Granpa, why are you saying such things about the colored people?".

He answered, "now son, I don't mean nothin' by it. The nigras just don't understand our refined culture. They don't have the capacity to understand."

"But granpa, aren't they just people too? Why do you say mean things about them?"

"Now now son, I don't mean nothin' by it. It's just a joke. I'm just makin' some fun. When you grow up, you'll understand."

I grew up, and I never did understand, except to decry all attacks on those with opposing views, with different backgrounds and perspectives.

I see the same attitudes he displayed today, but with new groups to target. Ideologues of all sorts have the same problem with hypocrisy, confirmation bias, and general fascist tendencies. Spouting "tolerance" and "acceptance", they are only tolerant and accepting of those who share their world view and perspective.

fascists indeed.
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Re: Economics and Suicides

Unread postby vox_mundi » Fri 31 Mar 2017, 09:02:14

Former Greenwich Hedge Fund Exec is Fourth to Take His Life Following Madoff Ponzi Scheme

A Paulson & Co. partner that once worked for a Bernie Madoff feeder fund plunged to his death in an apparent suicide Monday.

Charles Murphy, 56, whose Fairfield Greenwich Group invested $7 billion in Madoff’s Ponzi scheme, was found on the fourth-floor terrace of luxury New York hotel Sofitel, after jumping from a room on the 24th floor, according to Bloomberg, citing people familiar with the matter.

Murphy is the fourth person connected to Madoff to commit suicide.

In December 2008, Magon de La Villehuchet was found dead in his Madison Avenue office. He had slit his wrist and taken sleeping pills. His company AIA had been duped for $1.5 billion, including his own personal fortune, from Madoff’s scheme.

A year later, William Foxton, a 65-year-old former Army major who had lost his arm in combat, shot himself in the head after he too was duped by Madoff.

Madoff’s son Mark, 46, hanged himself in 2010 on the second anniversary of his father’s arrest.

Murphy's apparent suicide also comes at a time when Wall Street has begun to worry about the rash of similar incidents linked to the industry. Data from the Center for Disease Control in 2014 revealed that yes, those in the financial services space are roughly 39% more likely to commit suicide than the wider workforce.


Is there a suicide contagion on Wall Street?

Fortune asked the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention to pull the latest suicide statistics from its National Occupational Mortality Surveillance database. During 1999, 2003, 2004, and 2007—the most recent years during which research was funded and for which data is available—there were 329 suicides among financial specialists, more than in any other occupation tracked by the CDC except for the broad grouping of "engineers and scientists," a cohort that lost 502 to suicide.

A close examination of the CDC data does reveal a worrisome connection between certain types of financial jobs and an elevated risk of suicide. The CDC organizes its mortality numbers by census categories, which can be pretty broad. The Wall Street-oriented classification is "sales representatives for financial and business services"—a category that includes a variety of banking positions, ranging from investment advisers to brokers to traders to investment bankers. People in that group are 39% more likely to kill themselves than the workforce as a whole. (Members of some other white-collar professions are at even greater risk: Lawyers are 54% more likely than average to commit suicide, and physicians are 97% more likely.)
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Re: Economics and Suicides

Unread postby Hawkcreek » Fri 31 Mar 2017, 10:45:07

Plantagenet wrote:
I've got an excuse to be up this late---I've got to pick somebody up from a plane that comes in at 1:58 am.

Cheers!

My sympathies - I think I spent half my life in the Anchorage airport. And I almost always left on the red-eye flights to go back outside.
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Re: Economics and Suicides

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 31 Mar 2017, 12:34:37

Cog wrote:For many white males, they anchor themselves so firmly in their jobs, their jobs become who they are. If they lose that job for whatever reason, even retirement, they struggle to find some meaning to their existence. At least that is my 2 cents on it.


I think this does explains part of it. But this does open up the deeper question what happened in the culture to equate self worth so deeply with ones job and to then feel so lost when this job is lost. I guess your job becomes everything, you go home and watch TV, next day back to work. Outside of this what social fabric is there to hold you? Church? The organic loss of small towns over to big box stores and empty faceless office buildings and big roads is part of it. You lose your job you feel that there is this big and uncaring empty space around you. No real organic social networking to help put you back on your feet.

To Onlooker's point about entitlement which I have also brought up there is also something to this. There was a demographic study that showed African Americans had a higher threshold of handling unemployment and hardships because for generations they have suffered discrimination and had lower expectations and were enculturated to not expect much in a white man's world. White men have been for generations at the top of the pyramid of privilege and are less enculturated to deal with this loss. MD's point also that now white men have become targeted in media as ok to denigrate just adds salt to the wound.

This also does explain a little bit the scapegoating of immigrants, whether legal or illegal. Why? Because they come to this country with zero entitlements happy to work cleaning bed pans in an old peoples home or in agriculture or whatever menial job and many do then rise and progress in the classic story of the American Dream. This is a whole other mindset then the privileged white man who lost his job and feels lost.

I was thinking of my dad, he went bankrupt was I was young, he was devestated, grew up on a farm and had that work ethic. His company folded and he had to declare bankruptcy. This almost killed him. He once confessed years later he almost contemplated suicide. He went on to find a job and retired. That farmer work ethic side of him could not deal with retirement. He ended up shampooing carpets in rich neighborhoods of suburban Chicago where he lived. He would drive around in an old Volvo with a suit and tie and shampoo rich peoples carpets and he did this until he was 80 years old. He was actually quite happy and often mentioned that the work was good aerobic exercise for his heart.

My question. Why don't we see white men able to ratchet down like say my dad did shampooing carpets and doing whatever it takes to make a livelihood? Is this space filled with immigrants far more motivated? Is that it?

There is something still not clear for me, why so easily deflated and defeated. I can't help but suspect that this is all about somehow feeling deserving of a place in the American Dream. Having fully believed that being a white man means you will have a place at the American Dream table. When the jobs got lost there was this depression and inability to ratchet down because of this privileged ideal.

Another question. Is this just a single generation of white men who will suffer this depression and inability to pick themselves up. Who cant manage this hurt? Are younger white millennial males free of this. Is this just an older generation problem?
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Re: Economics and Suicides

Unread postby MD » Fri 31 Mar 2017, 13:41:03

Ibon wrote:
This also does explain a little bit the scapegoating of immigrants, whether legal or illegal. Why? Because they come to this country with zero entitlements happy to work cleaning bed pans in an old peoples home or in agriculture or whatever menial job and many do then rise and progress in the classic story of the American Dream. This is a whole other mindset then the privileged white man who lost his job and feels lost.



zero entitlements? This is no longer the case for the immigrants who are well informed. Free education (adult males in freshman high school). Free health care (just show up, they will get care for free)

As for white males in their middle to elder years? We have been marginalized. Yes, men of my age are not happy to see how we have worked for 50 years in america, paid into the social systems, and now find ourselves cast off in favor of immigrants who are fresh and new and finding all kinds of benefits. Yes, it's demeaning, and unfair. Not all of us had silver spoons stuck up our ass. We delivered newspapers, flipped burgers, and swept floors. I did all of that. Now immigrants and refugees get to gain the benefit of those efforts while we are marginalized and a safe target for derisive commentary? Yeah. It sucks to be a white male in america at age 60. "reverse racism".
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