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Countdown To Impeachment

A forum for discussion of regional topics including oil depletion but also government, society, and the future.

how long before Trump is impeached?

Before swearing in
0
No votes
Before 100 days into term
0
No votes
Before 1 year
8
21%
Before 2018 mid-terms
5
13%
Before 2020 election
5
13%
hell freezes over
21
54%
 
Total votes : 39

Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby Cog » Thu 10 Oct 2019, 19:18:15

jedrider wrote:Hey Cog, the Trump white house should just cooperate. If it's a hoax, the American people will vote him in again.


Ok educate me here. In the Nixon and Clinton House impeachment inquiries the whole House voted to proceed with doing so. Why can't you guys vote to have an inquiry? You aren't scared to go on record to proceed with an inquiry are you?
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby Cog » Thu 10 Oct 2019, 19:21:34

Pops wrote:So no constitutional citation?
Surprise.

The house impeaches, much like a grand jury. The object of the prosecution doesn't testify, doesn't present witnesses, doesn't cross examine, doesn't even usually know he's being targeted I believe.

Only the prosecution presents a case.
The grand jury then decides if there is sufficient evidence to indict, or in this case, impeach.

I know that's not what rush and hannity are telling you but that's how it works.


By all means let's hang him. We can figure out what to charge Trump with later.
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 10 Oct 2019, 19:25:55

The House of Representatives shall choose their Speaker and other Officers; and shall have the sole Power of Impeachment.


“The House Of Representatives....”

The power rests with The House, not with the Speaker.

Who chooses the Speaker? “The House.”
Who has the “Power of Impeachment”? “The House”

Why? Who would succeed if the President and Vice President were impeached?
THE SPEAKER.

Simply leaving it with the Speaker unchecked leaves the position wide open for abuse.

I would be shocked if the SCOTUS did not support that assessment. The framers were very careful to balance power and not let one branch over reach. But I’ve been wrong before. I’m guessing we will find out.

IIRC Pelozi, or a surrogate, said they expect to move for impeachment in October and have it to the Senate in January. Then Pence is up. But there already rumblings to also impeach him.

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/cafe/pence-impeachment

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/?s=Talkingpointsmemo
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby Cog » Thu 10 Oct 2019, 19:31:32

Ask the Dems here why they don't want to have a vote to start an official impeachment inquiry. They won't have an answer.

This should be an easy vote for the Dems. They all want it and they have the majority. Why do they hesitate to put their vote on it?
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 10 Oct 2019, 19:51:03

OK Cog, you are the resident constitutional expert. What do you think of my assessment above? Golden or full of it?
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby Plantagenet » Thu 10 Oct 2019, 20:07:27

Newfie wrote:
The House of Representatives shall choose their Speaker and other Officers; and shall have the sole Power of Impeachment.


“The House Of Representatives....”

The power rests with The House, not with the Speaker.

Who chooses the Speaker? “The House.”
Who has the “Power of Impeachment”? “The House”

Why? Who would succeed if the President and Vice President were impeached?
THE SPEAKER.

Simply leaving it with the Speaker unchecked leaves the position wide open for abuse.

I would be shocked if the SCOTUS did not support that assessment. The framers were very careful to balance power and not let one branch over reach. But I’ve been wrong before. I’m guessing we will find out.

IIRC Pelozi, or a surrogate, said they expect to move for impeachment in October and have it to the Senate in January. Then Pence is up. But there already rumblings to also impeach him.

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/cafe/pence-impeachment

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/?s=Talkingpointsmemo


+1

Thats exactly what I've been saying. The constitution never intended for one person to have the power to overturn a presidential election.

The idea that Queen Nancy can make a royal proclamation that Trump must be impeached and lo....an impeachment inquiry then starts without a vote of the people's representatives.....thats antithetical to everything our Constitution stands for.

This reminds me of the DNC selecting hundreds of special delegates to support Hillary even before the primaries even started, and then working to subvert Bernie in the 2016 primary elections as well. That was undemocratic and wrong and the Ds said they had learned from it. But here are the Ds once again proving how little they really care about things like voting and democracy.

Cheers!
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby Pops » Thu 10 Oct 2019, 20:19:58

Newfie wrote:
The House of Representatives shall choose their Speaker and other Officers; and shall have the sole Power of Impeachment.


“The House Of Representatives....”

The power rests with The House, not with the Speaker.

This is a republic, we choose representatives, they have power.
The speaker is chosen by the house, she is the chair of the house.

By your reasoning, our elected leaders (like the speaker) are powerless, the people must vote on every matter. Pretty sure that doesn't wash.

The constitution only says the house is the impeacher, as I quoted earlier, it also specifies the house makes its own rules. As I also cited, the Republicans changed the committee rules to allow committee chairs to serve subpoenas.
There is no requirement for a vote on inquiry, none needed to inquire.

Which is why Ds railed at Rs when they changed the rules to harass Obama.

This is the bed republicans made, nighty night.
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby Tanada » Thu 10 Oct 2019, 20:53:29

Newfie wrote:OK Cog, you are the resident constitutional expert. What do you think of my assessment above? Golden or full of it?


You are making the same mistake the mass media keeps pushing. The House can impeach whomever they wish by whatever method they choose, but that person remains in office unless and until the Senate convicts them of High Crimes and Misdemeanors and removes them from office. Even if on some wild chance the republican Senate chose to convict President Trump removing him from office that just means Pence becomes President. Then presume the House tries to Impeach Pence as well. While all those shenanigans are going on Pence names Rudy Giuliani/John Kasich/Mitt Romney or some other prominent Republican as Vice President and that person is rapidly approved by the Republican controlled Senate making that person Vice President. So Queen Nancy by a second miracle gets the Republican Senate to convict Pence as well, all that means is the Senate approved new Vice President is now the third Republican President of 2020. Also that third Republican President does the same thing Pence did naming another prominent republican to VP with the approval of the Senate Republican majority.

That is the Check and Balance system at work. There is a sound reason for separating Impeachment (indictment) by house and conviction (removal from office) by senate.
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby Cog » Thu 10 Oct 2019, 23:33:06

In section 2 of the 25th Amendment a new vice president has to be approved by both the House and Senate by majority vote.

That leads to an interesting dilemma that the House might not vote for any vice president that President Pence might name.

As to Newfie question about what the House can do about impeachment or impeachment inquiries. The Constitution does not say anything about inquiries or or how the House conducts them. Only that at some point they vote and if a majority votes to impeach it goes to the Senate for a trial to remove the president.

In our system, as Tanada has explained how the House conducts it's business is pretty much up to the majority leader.
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby Cog » Thu 10 Oct 2019, 23:51:12

My unofficial take on the matter, is Pelosi is protecting certain House Democratic seats in Trump districts from having to go on the record on supporting this impeachment inquiry. Otherwise there would have been a House vote as in the cases of Nixon and Clinton.

It's cowardice plain and simple in the event this blows up in the Dems face, as I fully expect it to do.
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby evilgenius » Fri 11 Oct 2019, 07:41:16

Cog wrote:My unofficial take on the matter, is Pelosi is protecting certain House Democratic seats in Trump districts from having to go on the record on supporting this impeachment inquiry. Otherwise there would have been a House vote as in the cases of Nixon and Clinton.

It's cowardice plain and simple in the event this blows up in the Dems face, as I fully expect it to do.


Your position is interesting because it was Pelosi's position as well. She did not want to impeach Trump. She can make the decision to do so mostly because she already knows there are enough votes to impeach him because she has seen the numbers, and stood against them. She was the only thing blocking it. Her reasoning was that it would fail in the Senate. Since it would, Trump would get a boost in the next election. His base would be energized. Fence straddlers might come to him as well, since he would seem exonerated. It could wreck the Democratic Candidate's chances. Trump knows how to throw those cutesy names around. Both Ly'n Joe and Pocahontas are suckers for them. It shows you something about the level of care taken by the electorate that they work so well. A failed bid at impeachment would only reinforce that same dynamic.

You never know with Trump. He's the type of person who may recognize an opportunity like this when it comes around. As I said before, it was apparently common knowledge that the funds for the Ukraine were being held up over an investigation of Biden. It hasn't been since Reagan that a Republican has received this level of hero worship, that he could shoot somebody out on the street in broad daylight and his approval rating would not go down. I wouldn't put it past him to recognize that he could commit an impeachable offense, and the Senate would not convict him. He only had to find the right offense, so that his base wouldn't actually abandon him if he was brought up on it. I don't think, unless the public goes absolutely wild during the process and really puts pressure on them, that the Senate will convict him. Some Senators who are up for re-election in the coming cycle will lose their jobs, that will be the price they pay. This could be his way of manipulating Pelosi.
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby Cog » Fri 11 Oct 2019, 08:00:43

The president of Ukraine has said repeatedly there was no blackmail and no pressure on him. So how was this a shakedown or extortion if the other party doesn't feel that there was? If this is all the House has on Trump its pretty weak sauce.

The Mueller investigation will actually help Trump going forward. Trump and his family were put under a microscope for two years, but the special counsel didn't recommend that Trump or any of his family members be charged with anything.

But hey, if the Dems want to waste the country's time and effort on this more power to them. The longer it drags out the more Dems are going to fall out of the corruption tree. Biden is one of the first casualties of a rush to impeach but he won't be last. Funny how it worked out for the Dems. The whistle blower destroyed one of the few people who had a shot at beating Trump in 2020. Its going to be hilarious when he find out the whistle blower was a Warren supporter.
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby evilgenius » Fri 11 Oct 2019, 08:12:50

I think it's time to start wondering what an isolationist America would look like. Trump is riding the isolationist's agenda. He's pulling back from China and, now, he's wrecking the framework that the US has been following regarding peak oil as it pertains to the Middle East and Russia. His latest move, against the Kurds, is only more of that. He may be trying to address the push by the Kurds for a Kurdistan as it relates to that agenda, but, if so, he would be endangering the chances that the US would get Kurdish support if they needed it to face Iran.

Does he think that fracking is the answer? Maybe he has a plan to focus the coming electrically powered world upon the US, so that it maintains power over the way that market develops? Perhaps he can see that AI will soon make cheap labor obsolete as a bargaining chip in the global economy? Maybe he can see that he can repatriate most of the production the US has lost, without losing control over the economic narrative to labor? Whatever is going on is both scary and interesting. Whatever it is, we are heading there very quickly.
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby Cog » Fri 11 Oct 2019, 08:31:56

I thought the left were against foreign intervention and being a world policeman. How quick they change their tune when a Republican president actually does try to pull us out of those foreign countries. Funny seeing the left make nice with the Republican NeoCons who never met a war they didn't want to jump into.
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby evilgenius » Fri 11 Oct 2019, 09:05:56

Cog wrote:I thought the left were against foreign intervention and being a world policeman. How quick they change their tune when a Republican president actually does try to pull us out of those foreign countries. Funny seeing the left make nice with the Republican NeoCons who never met a war they didn't want to jump into.
The left was like that during the Cold War. It's only been in the wake of Vietnam that they have had to come down from that. Remember how the first George Bush declared that opposing Saddam collectively would address the wound still left upon the country from Vietnam?

It was a Republican, Nixon, who got us out of that. Then, Jimmy Carter began to say things like how the US should start to consider aid to countries based upon their human rights records. The country couldn't stomach that.

The politicians only put their fingers into the prevailing winds. Along came Reagan, to seize the new agenda recognized by an electorate hungry to dominate the world, and prosper doing it! At first, it only looked like we would have to sacrifice certain things, like the textile industry.

That was mostly jobs for women, so it was easy to let go. When it also happened to Joe Steel worker, then it looked like a much worse hole. Now, "everything is made in China." It's not really, but that's not the point. Trump is countering that. He is only the figure who allows the wishes of the people to recognize their ambitions. Like always, the people don't realize that they had better worry that they will get what they ask for.
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby Pops » Fri 11 Oct 2019, 09:22:27

Tanada wrote:
Newfie wrote:OK Cog, you are the resident constitutional expert. What do you think of my assessment above? Golden or full of it?


You are making the same mistake the mass media keeps pushing.

I'm pretty sure I've never heard the "mass media" pushing anything like the "Queen Nancy" narrative. Obviously certain media are tho, LOL
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 11 Oct 2019, 11:37:59

Tanada/Cog,

Thanks for your thoughtful replies. I still suspect it will be tested in the SCOTUS but that may be wrong as well.
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Fri 11 Oct 2019, 12:08:42

The number of Republican Senate votes for removal is the only important metric.
With this latest arrest of Rudie's Ukrainian "friends" and the backstabbing of the Kurds those votes might be there by the time the House votes to impeach. But if the impeachment vote includes Pence meaning Pelosie would be president those votes will never be there.
Then on to election 2020 and see if the Democrats can put up a electable candidate? The top four in the current standings don't cut it in my view.
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby Pops » Fri 11 Oct 2019, 12:46:16

vtsnowedin wrote:The number of Republican Senate votes for removal is the only important metric.

I think pushing back on the ever increasing power of the executive is important. trumps taken this to an extreme calling the inquiry an “unconstitutional efforts to overturn the democratic process.”
LOL, his letter to congress makes this thread look like a harvard dissertation.

I presume the house will impeach when they eventually get down to it. I doubt the senate will convict and remove. Maybe some kid of censure.

But I've been wrong about everything I ever said about trump so there's that, LOL
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 11 Oct 2019, 14:35:22

I can hear it already. " Marie L. Yovanovitch is a socialist, biased, part of the deep state, in bed with the FBI and CIA".. just watch the character assination unfold .. all part of a playbook to influence the narrative. And the trump groupies will lap it up like addicts smoking crack.

You Trump brainless loyalists have an unlimited capacity to eat the propaganda shit the Trump Mafia spins daily...

Pops, it is not that you have been wrong about assessing Trump. Where you have been wrong is under estimating the depths of the cult like loyalty to a deeply flawed and criminal president.
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