Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

Countdown To Impeachment

A forum for discussion of regional topics including oil depletion but also government, society, and the future.

how long before Trump is impeached?

Before swearing in
0
No votes
Before 100 days into term
0
No votes
Before 1 year
8
21%
Before 2018 mid-terms
5
13%
Before 2020 election
5
13%
hell freezes over
21
54%
 
Total votes : 39

Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Mon 30 Sep 2019, 12:19:27

Yes, but that was NOT the way to do it.


you missed Plants point:

Are fantasies about "coercion" to be the new norm


you have jumped to a conclusion that somehow Trump coerced the Ukraine into doing something it wasn't doing already or had planned on doing. Where is your evidence, certainly not it the phone call notes released? Until the sources of the Whistleblowers claims are interviewed there is no chance of any actual proof arising.
User avatar
rockdoc123
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 7086
Joined: Mon 16 May 2005, 02:00:00

Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby Pops » Mon 30 Sep 2019, 12:30:30

Trying to figure out whether 'he did nothing wrong' or 'everybody does it' is the bigger cop out.
We should just suspend elections in that case because we're lost.

The biden thing is a strawman wrt trump. If you want an investigation, that's fine, he deserves it. Rs hold the executive and the Senate, go for it.

trump using the office to blackmail a foreign country into doing his political dirty work makes even tricky dick look like a patriot. Even trumps people knew it was wrong if the whole super secret handling of the notes is true

It amazes me how trumps stream of consciousness policymaking have Rs (and those who "aren't" defending him) so flummoxed. Bannon told them they should be nationalists now because nationalists hate immigrants (not meskin rapists, immigrants). But then they pretend that trump doing the least nationalistic thing possible — inviting foreign interference into the heart of our election —twice — is the greatest thing since barbed wire.

I can understand bushco wanting to liberate iraqi oil, even reagan arming the "freedom fighters." But I can't understand why trumps sociopathy, manipulation, narcissism deserves defense. It is all about him, there is nothing in it for you.

it is like some little abuse fetish. Thank you sir, can I have another?

.
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
User avatar
Pops
Elite
Elite
 
Posts: 18480
Joined: Sat 03 Apr 2004, 03:00:00
Location: QuikSac for a 6-Pac

Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 30 Sep 2019, 12:37:58

Is Trump's behavior in coercing a foreign government to help him against his rivals to be the new norm? That is the only question that is relevant. Anything else and one is just engaging in an infantile exercise of slinging food around the lunch room.


OK let’s think about that a bit.

Here the question is “Is it moral for the President to allow internal political consideration to be placed above the countries interest?”

Every modern President has made domestic political decisions based upon international affairs, and the President applies pressure to foreign governments all the time. Very often those decisions are based upon what was good for the Presidents political future, not what was good for the country. The Viet Nam war was very much handled in this manner.

When we apply sanctions or tariffs we are very overtly pressuring foreign governments and often the purpose of those measures is carefully weighted by how they will be perceived at home.

So if the question is “Do Presidents allow domestic politics to over shadow foreign affairs?” The the answer must be “Nearly daily.”

It’s quite naive to believe that Presidents don’t do this on a regular basis. I think it could be argued that it is part of their job description.

“The ideal candidate must be able to effectively exert pressure on foreign governments to the benefit of the citizens.” And how does one measure “To the benefit of the citizens.” if not by polls? And if he polls are up, then the citizenry is happy, and the President is likely to be re-elected.

Not saying I like any of this, just trying to keep an accurate view of water is and what can be.
User avatar
Newfie
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 13072
Joined: Thu 15 Nov 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Between Canada and Carribean

Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby Plantagenet » Mon 30 Sep 2019, 12:48:28

Pops wrote:trump using the office to blackmail a foreign country into doing his political dirty work makes even tricky dick look like a patriot.


Investigating corruption isn't normally considered "dirty work" except by those trying to cover up the corruption.

Given Biden's involvement in getting his son a position on the board of directors of Burisma that resulted in Hunter Biden being paid millions of dollars while doing no work, and given that Biden admitted he threatened the Ukrainians to force them to fire the prosecutor investigating Burisma and Hunter BIden and the millions of dollars, its not unreasonable to wonder if Biden was involved in some kind of corruption in Ukraine.

Pops wrote: Even trumps people knew it was wrong if the whole super secret handling of the notes is true


Susan Rice made the same claim, but then she admitted that Obama used essentially the same system to keep his communications with foreign leaders secure.

susan-rice-obama-put-call-transcripts-on-top-secret-server-too

Cheers!
hall of shame
People who buy new cars and then cry crocodile tears over climate change. The manufacture of a typical new car emits ca. 16 tons of CO2 and a new EV is actually much worse since the battery also has to be manufactured, resulting in a total carbon footprint of ca. 30 tons of CO2
User avatar
Plantagenet
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 22661
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2007, 02:00:00
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).

Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby jedrider » Mon 30 Sep 2019, 12:51:24

You're skirting the question. It really has only a binary answer, 'yes' or 'no'.

Of course, the Bush and Cheney and Powell bunch should have been impeached. However, the question was never asked, the country was not going there.

But, we are surely going there now and the question has been asked and the answer, to me, is obvious. Of course, I questioned why this didn't happen before. However, that question did not have a binary answer then.
User avatar
jedrider
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1464
Joined: Thu 28 May 2009, 09:10:44

Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby Pops » Mon 30 Sep 2019, 12:52:31

Newfie wrote:Here the question is “Is it moral for the President to allow internal political consideration to be placed above the countries interest?”


Let's parse your question
"Is it moral for the President to allow internal political consideration to be placed put his personal interest above the countries interest?”

Is it?
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
User avatar
Pops
Elite
Elite
 
Posts: 18480
Joined: Sat 03 Apr 2004, 03:00:00
Location: QuikSac for a 6-Pac

Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby Pops » Mon 30 Sep 2019, 13:22:45

Newfie wrote:“The ideal candidate must be able to effectively exert pressure on foreign governments to the benefit of the citizens.” And how does one measure “To the benefit of the citizens.” if not by polls? And if he polls are up, then the citizenry is happy, and the President is likely to be re-elected.

Not saying I like any of this, just trying to keep an accurate view of water is and what can be.

But it is not accurate, it is different in kind.
You said it: "benefit the citizens"

All of your examples are about poor policy or personal decisions which may or may not have had political motivations. If they did, they either had a constituency or the POTUS had what he thought good policy or "moral" reasons. If they were designed to affect public perceptions they obviously wanted the public to know.

None were designed to rig the election except dick and don.

Trump twice sought to involve foreign governments to directly interfere in our election — for his benefit alone.

Not to the country.

How can that not be obvious to you?
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
User avatar
Pops
Elite
Elite
 
Posts: 18480
Joined: Sat 03 Apr 2004, 03:00:00
Location: QuikSac for a 6-Pac

Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby Ibon » Mon 30 Sep 2019, 13:49:19

Newfie wrote: And how does one measure “To the benefit of the citizens.” if not by polls? And if the polls are up, then the citizenry is happy, and the President is likely to be re-elected.


Ultimately the benefits would be tangible. The problem Newfie is that we have this little problem of tribalism and the master at the helm of using lies and manipulations and corruption to replace tangible benefits with tribal talking points like Lock her Up or calling the whistleblower a traitor or mexicans are racists or thousands of other examples.

Ultimately as I mentioned the citizenry will grow tired, the antics of a narcissistic populist has a limited shelf life. So ultimately what you said will actually be measured at the polls. The appetite for tribal division is still more powerful then the desire for unity and we have a leader who knows that the moment you end the populism, the moment you end stoking grievances, the moment you stop baiting your opposition is the moment you lose. He is a one trick pony but masterful at what he does but he also knows he is vulnerable without the lies and corruption.

That is what this is all about actually
Our resiliency resembles an invasive weed. We are the Kudzu Ape
blog: http://blog.mounttotumas.com/
website: http://www.mounttotumas.com
User avatar
Ibon
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 7462
Joined: Fri 03 Dec 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Volcan, Panama

Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 30 Sep 2019, 14:19:20

Yup, it’s not really about what is “right and wrong” for that exists only in the eyes of the beholder.

Like I said before it’s religion, it’s which mythical values you believe in. :lol:
User avatar
Newfie
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 13072
Joined: Thu 15 Nov 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Between Canada and Carribean

Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Mon 30 Sep 2019, 14:25:40

trump using the office to blackmail a foreign country into doing his political dirty work makes even tricky dick look like a patriot. Even trumps people knew it was wrong if the whole super secret handling of the notes is true


jesus wept....where is the proof? Your faulty interpretation of the phone transcript where you are inferring things happened that are laid out in plain language? At what point does innocent until proven guilty no longer matter in the US?

As to the super secret handling of notes.....it has come to light that Obama also had a separate server for storing those communications. The apparent reason for it was an attempt to avoid the ongoing leaks of phone calls from the Administration. And the document has been made available so why would it matter where it was stored?
User avatar
rockdoc123
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 7086
Joined: Mon 16 May 2005, 02:00:00

Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby jedrider » Mon 30 Sep 2019, 15:03:44

So, basically, given that we know what is in the transcripts, let's say:

50% say, yes, this is how a US President should behave, is allowed to behave.
50% say, no, this is not how we expect our President to behave, it is not to be tolerated.

There is no need to bring up past Presidents or anything or even Biden nor Hillary.

Well, Bill was another case:

I would have said 'no', that it was a moral transgression, a social transgression, but not something to impeach about, but only to reprimand. This is changing, though.

I hate the long-winded responses. It's like the climate deniers that give you 100 reasons that the climate is not changing, when only one is necessary, the reason for the change.
User avatar
jedrider
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1464
Joined: Thu 28 May 2009, 09:10:44

Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby Plantagenet » Mon 30 Sep 2019, 15:57:56

Now we're getting FAKE NEWS about the CIA Whistleblower

Over the weekend first CBS 60 minutes and other news outlets and then the rest of the MSM were claiming that the CIA whistleblower had been placed in the FBI "witness protection" program, presumably to protect him from evil Donald Trump.

Only it wasn't true.

cia-whistleblowers-attorney-60-minutes-federal-protection-story-fake-news]

Once again the MSM is caught lying about Donald Trump. Funny how that keeps happening.

Image
Pssst! Did you hear the whistleblower has had to go into the FBI witness protection program?

Cheers!
User avatar
Plantagenet
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 22661
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2007, 02:00:00
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).

Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby Pops » Mon 30 Sep 2019, 19:46:24

WASHINGTON (The Borowitz Report)—Shortly after tweeting that his impeachment could result in a civil war, Donald J. Trump clarified that, in the event of such a war, he would seek a new note from his podiatrist.

Trump issued the clarification after military advisers cautioned him that, after starting a civil war, he might reasonably be expected to participate in it.

Speaking to reporters on the White House lawn, Trump said, “Much as I would like to fight in a civil war, my very serious foot condition would keep me from doing that.”

Trump said that, although every other part of him was “extremely young and vibrant,” his feet “are in no condition to fight.”

He added, however, that the country should “think very carefully” before engaging in a civil war. “It would be very sad for the United States to have a civil war for the first time in its history,” he said.

https://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowit ... podiatrist
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
User avatar
Pops
Elite
Elite
 
Posts: 18480
Joined: Sat 03 Apr 2004, 03:00:00
Location: QuikSac for a 6-Pac

Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby Plantagenet » Tue 01 Oct 2019, 23:35:29

The Ds spent three years trying to impeach Trump over the phony Russian collusion claims.

Now they're off again, trying to impeach Trump over phony claims that its wrong to investigate corruption if it involved Biden (and Biden's claim that he knew nothing about his son's position on the board of the Ukrainian NG company became utterly ridiculous when photos emerged of Joe playing golf with two members of the board of the Ukrainian NG company. Clearly the man is lying......and its not unreasonable to wonder why?)

The real problem here is that the Ds don't consider Trump to be a legitimate president, and it has driven them crazy to see Trump being president. I just heard an interview with Hillary on NPR and she couldn't stop ranting about how Trump is illegitimate and other crazy talk. Its a classic example of Garbage In-Garbage out. Once the Ds went down the rabbit hole and convinced themselves that Trump's presidency was illegitimate, they became insanely obsessed with impeaching Trump. However, just because the Ds have gone crazy over trump doesn't mean everyone else should as well.

Image

This too shall pass, just as the phony Russian collusion impeachment hysteria passed. The majestic ship of our grand American republic shall sail on.

Cheers!
hall of shame
People who buy new cars and then cry crocodile tears over climate change. The manufacture of a typical new car emits ca. 16 tons of CO2 and a new EV is actually much worse since the battery also has to be manufactured, resulting in a total carbon footprint of ca. 30 tons of CO2
User avatar
Plantagenet
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 22661
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2007, 02:00:00
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).

Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby Ibon » Wed 02 Oct 2019, 06:53:21

Something I wrote up thread worth repeating:

This alienates the official security apparatus within the US (FBI & CIA, Law enforcement) and Trump has succeeded in radicalizing his base into believing that this is part of the deep state etc.


If Trump gets impeached it all depends on the Republicans in congress. The only real valid pathway to break their cult like loyalty to Trump and to break their polarized battle with democrats is to seriously consider the nature of the attacks Trump has against the security apparatus within the US.

All Americans, particularly Republicans, have a long history of deep respect and appreciation of the men and women who serve the CIA, FBI and law enforcement. This is where some of the most honorable and patriotic sentiments can be found toward those who serve our country. It's right up there with the military.

The cult like loyalty of the republicans in congress to Trump can very well be undermined by just letting Trump and his inner circle continue to dishonor this security apparels with theories of deep state, with accusations that law enforcement is corrupt, that they are traitors, that the whistleblower is a spy, etc, etc, Just let them keep ranting about this and Trump will go down. That is where Repbulicans in congress will conclude enough is enough.

And all the Trump lovers on this site can just continue to spew their deep state bullshit.
Our resiliency resembles an invasive weed. We are the Kudzu Ape
blog: http://blog.mounttotumas.com/
website: http://www.mounttotumas.com
User avatar
Ibon
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 7462
Joined: Fri 03 Dec 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Volcan, Panama

Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby Ibon » Wed 02 Oct 2019, 07:00:16

Plantagenet wrote:TThe real problem here is that the Ds don't consider Trump to be a legitimate president, and it has driven them crazy to see Trump being president.


So that's the whole problem is it..... nothing else, just a bunch of sore loser democrats....

You know Plant, your sounding a bit like sore loser yourself right now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Our resiliency resembles an invasive weed. We are the Kudzu Ape
blog: http://blog.mounttotumas.com/
website: http://www.mounttotumas.com
User avatar
Ibon
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 7462
Joined: Fri 03 Dec 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Volcan, Panama

Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Wed 02 Oct 2019, 09:31:34

Ibon wrote:
All Americans, particularly Republicans, have a long history of deep respect and appreciation of the men and women who serve the CIA, FBI and law enforcement. This is where some of the most honorable and patriotic sentiments can be found toward those who serve our country. .

Much of that respect has been misplaced. There are numerous cases of misconduct in all three services. From J. Edgar Hoovers political files to sending innocent men to prison for decades to protect an FBI murderer to shooting black men on sight and planting evidence and double agents in the CIA.
To think there are no miscreants there, and throughout all of the Federal bureaucracy is naive.
User avatar
vtsnowedin
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 9776
Joined: Fri 11 Jul 2008, 02:00:00

Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 02 Oct 2019, 09:37:06

Ibon,

No President is perfectly good or evil. Trump does many things I dislike. But he does a few things that are beneficial.

The FBI has over the years convinced me that they are highly partisan and abuse their power. There is much historical evidence for this and Hoover was notorious for keeping dirty secret files on politicians (and others) to assure their cooperation (aka blackmail.)

McCabe, Strock, Page, et al worked for Mueller. They were all corrupt and highly politicized, I don’t think anyone can reasonably doubt that. I mean even Hillary has accused Mueller of costing her the election. It seems that FBI corruption/incompetence is the singular thing Hillary and Donald can agree upon.

The FBI brought this upon themselves. Does this discredit extend tot he CIA? It’s likely. So don’t blame that on Trump. And that he is screwing with their operation and resisting their handling is one of the good things he is doing. The need to be shaken up.
User avatar
Newfie
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 13072
Joined: Thu 15 Nov 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Between Canada and Carribean

Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 02 Oct 2019, 09:37:58

VT,

We posted over one another. I completely agree.
User avatar
Newfie
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 13072
Joined: Thu 15 Nov 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Between Canada and Carribean

Re: Countdown To Impeachment

Unread postby Pops » Wed 02 Oct 2019, 10:08:07

Not surprisingly the FBIs rating among Rs descended as fast as the golden escalator ride...

Image

Overnight the law and order, national security, states rights party shape-shifted into an obsequious cult of personality. The contortions of justification you people go to boggles my mind.

Reading list entry:
It Can't Happen Here

.
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
User avatar
Pops
Elite
Elite
 
Posts: 18480
Joined: Sat 03 Apr 2004, 03:00:00
Location: QuikSac for a 6-Pac

PreviousNext

Return to North America Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: MSN [Bot] and 3 guests