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CO2 levels acidifying human blood

CO2 levels acidifying human blood

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 21 Nov 2016, 09:14:16

Ocean acidification's evil twin: Blood Acidification. The effects of increased atmospheric CO2 go far beyond lowered intelligence, (which is worrying enough).

http://www.skepticalscience.com/how-sap ... ation.html

Increased concentrations of CO2 lead to metabolic acidosis and an array of adverse health effects...


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Re: CO2 levels acidifying human blood

Unread postby Tanada » Mon 21 Nov 2016, 10:15:43

The human body is very good at buffering blood chemistry, that is the main function of your kidneys. If you place a human in an environment high in CO2 within a few hours the kidneys respond by changing the balance of the buffering components to maintain the correct pH. This all smacks of those fad 'alkaline diets' that come around every few years. If you eat too much alkaline or acidic food your kidneys compensate, same thing happens if you have a higher CO2 concentration in your blood.

Just as an aside astronauts and submariners have been living through much higher CO2 levels than these for decades without all of them going brain damaged or suffering kidney failure.
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Re: CO2 levels acidifying human blood

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 21 Nov 2016, 12:54:24

This is not talking about temporary levels, like when you walk into a pot-growing greenhouse, lol.

This is about what happens when you are permanently exposed to these conditions.

Even if his exact values may be set low, that increases in CO2 concentrations can have direct negative influences on human health and ability to function seems to be confirmed by other studies:

At 1,000 ppm CO2, compared to 600 ppm, performance was significantly diminished on six of nine metrics of decision-making performance. At 2,500 ppm CO2, compared to 600 ppm, performance was significantly reduced in seven of nine metrics of performance, with percentile ranks for some performance metrics decreasing to levels associated with marginal or dysfunctional performance.


http://escholarship.org/uc/item/222631x2
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Re: CO2 levels acidifying human blood

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Mon 21 Nov 2016, 13:15:29

dohboi wrote:This is not talking about temporary levels, like when you walk into a pot-growing greenhouse, lol.

This is about what happens when you are permanently exposed to these conditions.

Even if his exact values may be set low, that increases in CO2 concentrations can have direct negative influences on human health and ability to function seems to be confirmed by other studies:

At 1,000 ppm CO2, compared to 600 ppm, performance was significantly diminished on six of nine metrics of decision-making performance. At 2,500 ppm CO2, compared to 600 ppm, performance was significantly reduced in seven of nine metrics of performance, with percentile ranks for some performance metrics decreasing to levels associated with marginal or dysfunctional performance.


http://escholarship.org/uc/item/222631x2

That may be, but getting all alarmist about it now smacks of the kind of claims that people make about massive numbers of "children starving in America". More politics than substance (in the SHORT term).

To me, this is another example of a negative impact of CO2. i.e. it's not just AGW that we need to worry about. So for this particular problem, if it turns out to be real, then over time, some sort of (say) drug or dietary therapy will be needed to (at least mostly) counteract the effect on the blood.

Somewhere between "doom" and "happy motoring forever", for this particular issue.

...

Naturally, as more and more of these problems surface, and things like AGW get worse and worse, and humanity merrily/stupidly continues to make the CO2 problem worse instead of meaningfully dealing with it -- the system eventually won't be able to cope with it. And I find it personally terrifying for humanity that we have no clue as to how rapidly this will occur, but the threat of the feedback mechanisms (that we already know about, much less all the others that are bound to exist) seems to worsen rather rapidly.

So when such problems are considered in aggregate, then IMO, just saying "nothing to see here" is far from an adequate response.
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Re: CO2 levels acidifying human blood

Unread postby Cid_Yama » Mon 21 Nov 2016, 13:50:54

You need to bear in mind the CO2 levels in buildings are much higher.

Carbon dioxide has been vilified for decades as a driver of global warming. A new study finds signs that CO2, exhaled in every breath, can exert an equally worrisome threat — impaired cognition — in nearly every energy-efficient classroom, meeting hall or office space.

The work assessed decision-making in 22 healthy young adults. Their performance on six of nine tests dropped notably when researchers raised indoor carbon dioxide levels to 1,000 parts per million from a baseline of 600 ppm. On seven tests, performance fell substantially more when the room’s CO2 was boosted to 2,500 ppm, scientists report in a paper to be published in Environmental Health Perspectives.

These data are surprising, says Roger Hedrick of Architectural Energy Corp. in Boulder, Colo., because “1,000 ppm of CO2 used to be considered a benchmark of good ventilation.” Hedrick, an environmental engineer, chairs the committee that drafts commercial ventilation standards through the American Society of Heating, Refrigerating, & Air-Conditioning Engineers.

Carbon dioxide levels are often substantially higher in buildings than the 350 to 400 ppm typically found outdoors. Indoor values of 600 ppm are considered very good. But depending on how many people inhabit a room and how many times per hour its air is exchanged with outdoor air through ventilation, “there are plenty of buildings where you could easily see 2,500 ppm of CO2 — or close to it — even with ventilation designs that are fully compliant with current standards,” Hedrick says.

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Re: CO2 levels acidifying human blood

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Mon 21 Nov 2016, 16:36:48

Face it, Doughboy - Global Warming and higher Carbon Dioxide levels are beneficial for the planet Earth and the humans on it.

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Re: CO2 levels acidifying human blood

Unread postby dolanbaker » Mon 21 Nov 2016, 16:51:47

Cid_Yama wrote:You need to bear in mind the CO2 levels in buildings are much higher.

A place I worked in had an average reading of between 800 & 1100, a colleague had a CO2 meter on his desk.
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Re: CO2 levels acidifying human blood

Unread postby GHung » Mon 21 Nov 2016, 19:14:45

@dohboi; On subs, we breathed air with much higher CO2 concentrations than 400 ppm for weeks; cumulatively for years. I would know because running the CO2 scrubbers was one of my watch stations. I once did 105 days straight submerged and I think we only snorkelled twice during that patrol. I don't think there were any ill effects, and submariners are a pretty bright bunch. We were much more concerned about high levels of CO and VOCs. We also lived with slightly lower O2 levels at times. Those parameters have been studied for decades and were well-defined for varying boat pressures.

We have good reasons for being concerned about our CO2 emissions, but physiological effects on human respiration or blood chemistry isn't on my A-list. Ocean acidity and declining oxygen levels are probably greater issues. CO2 displaces oxygen in respiration, so the ratio of the two may cause problems for some folks, especially at altitude.
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Re: CO2 levels acidifying human blood

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 21 Nov 2016, 20:47:36

Yes, G, all those other things are much more important.

And it does sound like the graph at the top of the post was not completely legit, in spite of being from an otherwise fairly trustworthy source.

What we haven't done before, though, is raise humans from the womb to the grave with consistently higher CO2 levels. Perhaps won't be significant for a while yet, but like everything else, as I've said, we're running an uncontrolled experiment on ourselves and on everything else.
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Re: CO2 levels acidifying human blood

Unread postby Tanada » Mon 21 Nov 2016, 22:30:21

dohboi wrote:Yes, G, all those other things are much more important.

And it does sound like the graph at the top of the post was not completely legit, in spite of being from an otherwise fairly trustworthy source.

What we haven't done before, though, is raise humans from the womb to the grave with consistently higher CO2 levels. Perhaps won't be significant for a while yet, but like everything else, as I've said, we're running an uncontrolled experiment on ourselves and on everything else.


We are, actually. All those college age kids right now have been born and grown up in a world with CO2 ranging from 350-408 ppmv outside and much higher in poorly ventilated spaces. In fact if they turned 18 this last summer and are now College Freshmen that means they were born around 1998 it was over 364 almost their entire lifetime. I say that based on this graph showing that level being September 1998,

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If they were born in January 1998 they were born at about 370 and they have never in their lives been in an environment below 364, and that only very briefly that September. Every reading after September 1998 has been higher than 364.

So yes we are running a grand experiment upon our own species, but I firmly understand that even bad indoor air is not enough to 'acidify' the blood with all the natural defenses of the body intact.
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Re: CO2 levels acidifying human blood

Unread postby jedrider » Mon 21 Nov 2016, 23:44:38

Maybe, acidifying human blood can turn us into vampires who will draw blood and dissolve our victims. This could be the negative feedback we've been looking for that will quickly reduce our numbers.
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Re: CO2 levels acidifying human blood

Unread postby Cid_Yama » Tue 22 Nov 2016, 08:45:02

Naturally, as more and more of these problems surface, and things like AGW get worse and worse, and humanity merrily/stupidly continues to make the CO2 problem worse instead of meaningfully dealing with it -- the system eventually won't be able to cope with it. And I find it personally terrifying for humanity that we have no clue as to how rapidly this will occur, but the threat of the feedback mechanisms (that we already know about, much less all the others that are bound to exist) seems to worsen rather rapidly.

So when such problems are considered in aggregate, then IMO, just saying "nothing to see here" is far from an adequate response.


This is about what happens when you are permanently exposed to these conditions.


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peabrain wrote:Yuck yuck yuck. Global warming is funny lol

peabrain wrote:Mammals did just fine at over 2,000 ppm during the Tertiary. So fine, they turned into humans.


I rest my case.
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Re: CO2 levels acidifying human blood

Unread postby Cid_Yama » Tue 22 Nov 2016, 21:29:20

Do you think Einstein walked around thinking everyone's a bunch of dumbshits?


He must have, because I do. I have always assumed Idiocracy to be a satire of present day America.

I don't judge just you, peabrain, but current humanity as a whole, and find it wanting. Most intelligent people do.

And I could give a rat's ass what the peabrain gallery thinks about that.

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Here in these verses we find that Lord Kalki will come as a chastiser or warrior. By this time the planet will be filled with people who will be unable to understand logical conversations. They will be too slow-minded and dull-witted, not capable of being taught much, especially in the way of high philosophy regarding the purpose of life. They will not know what they need to do or how to live. And they certainly will be unable to change their ways. Therefore, Lord Kalki does not come to teach, but simply to chastise, punish, and cleanse the planet.


Kind of sounds like now, doesn't it.
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Re: CO2 levels acidifying human blood

Unread postby dissident » Wed 23 Nov 2016, 22:36:49

pstarr wrote:Mammals did just fine at over 2,000 ppm during the Tertiary. So fine, they turned into humans.


Pay attention. The discussion is not about CO2 induced death or disease, it is about cognitive function. Those mammals didn't need to use their brains much to survive. If the collective IQ of humans drops, then that will speed the demise of modern civilization. Some humans will survive, living like those mammals you invoke.
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