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Let's Crash the Global Economic System!

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Let's Crash the Global Economic System!

Unread postby careinke » Thu 20 Oct 2016, 04:03:16

Yes, this post is about the environment.

The mood on this board has been increasingly doomerish, and for good reasons: The insane politics, amoral corporations, AGW, numerous tipping points, mounting debt, GMO’s, accelerating CO2, mass extinctions, methane releases, topsoil loss, ocean acidification, overpopulation, over consumption and a soon to be ice free arctic to name a few. Even if you don’t agree/believe in all of them, I bet there are a substantial number you are concerned about. The odds do not seem to be in our favor, and a collapse seems likely, although the timing is certainly in dispute.

After years of formal and informal study of: ecology, politics, psychology, horticulture, culture, foreign affairs, military science, permaculture and numerous other subjects, I believe a fast crash, as soon as possible, is mankind’s best chance at survival. I also concur with David Holmgren that it can be accomplished in a non-violent way with minimal government involvement.

From his website:
David’s argument is essentially that radical, but achievable, behaviour change from dependent consumers to responsible self-reliant producers (by some relatively small minority of the global middle class) has a chance of stopping the juggernaut of consumer capitalism from driving the world over the climate change cliff.  It maybe a slim chance, but a better bet than current herculean efforts to get the elites to pull the right policy levers; whether by sweet promises of green tech profits or alternatively threats from mass movements shouting for less consumption


I recently read David Holmgren’s “Crash on Demand: welcome to the brown tech future.”
https://holmgren.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Crash-on-demand.pdf

In his paper, Holmgren said he used to believe that energy decent would naturally slow down FF use before significant climate change would take hold. He now admits he was wrong as shown by the great efforts to obtain unconventional oil and the increasing speed of climate change. If we keep on this course, we will delay the collapse, but it will be much worse and probably not recoverable. Therefore, the only ethical solution is to speed up the collapse which will dramatically cut carbon emissions giving more time to transition a regenerative society that actively repairs and enhances the environment. Even then it’s only a small chance we can help the ones who make it through the bottle neck.

He believes mass protests are no longer effective and other methods need to be employed. The 1% will not be part of this movement because their best interest is with BAU. The poor will benefit from the techniques used, but they do not have the economic impact to collapse the debt based monetary system. So that leaves it up to us, the small but growing number of middle class who are waking up to what’s going on around us. Holmgren feels if we can shrink the global debt based economy by around 5%, enough businesses would fail that it would bring down the entire JIT system through contagion. This in turn would significantly reduce trade and long haul transportation of goods better produced locally or not at all.

Anyway, a lot more in his 27 page paper covering the nuts and bolts of his proposal. It’s a pretty easy read, but the implications are profound.

I figure since we are doomed anyway, and I’m already doing most of the things he calls for, (plus some), why not lend a hand. I’ll bet a lot of you are helping too. Now you know the “secret” of Permaculture. It's about taking over the world, and installing anarchy, the garden was just a metaphor. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
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Re: Let's Crash the Global Economic System!

Unread postby onlooker » Thu 20 Oct 2016, 06:13:50

Great post Care. This idea I believe has entered the mind of all who have or are thinking about these matters. It has entered my mind. I agree with the premise of David Holmgren. I have heard it uttered as follows: We can have a living Earth or an Industrial Civilization but we cannot have both. We simply cannot continue BAU, it is undeniably destroying the habitability of Earth for most organisms. Already, it seems we have unleashed the climate monster and it promises to reign havoc upon this Earth for a long time. But of course every day we are making things worse. Now for the solution, well for starters a Collapse of the Global Economic System would have devastating consequences itself. The entire global food system is already very dependent in some form or other on the modern industrial agricultural system. The most dependent of course are the rich world countries. Also, remember Man does not live by bread alone. Rich world denizens would also be very adversely affected with regards to healthcare, adequate shelter, medicine etc. from a Collapse. This then brings up the uncomfortable reality that rich world consumers do not seem capable of disengaging from BAU, first because they would be afraid of the consequences, second because NO alternatives seem capable of substituting on a mass scale at this point. Third, because quite a number still are ignorant of the necessity of disengaging. So while on balance for the future this is the only SANE course to chose, the majority of people (rich world people) are either ignorant of the true nature of things, or if they examine and evaluate may reach the conclusion that this radical change would involve too much risk and hardship for them and their immediate progeny.
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Re: Let's Crash the Global Economic System!

Unread postby GHung » Thu 20 Oct 2016, 09:18:30

It's common sense, really; passive resistance. If you don't like the direction that industrial civilization is taking, take another direction by reducing your participation. Not so simple though.

If you don't like the top-down energy system, stop supporting it. I didn't like that 40% of my power was coming from burning nasty coal, with measurable effects on my own life, so I don't buy their power anymore. Indeed, the local electric utility doesn't even have access to my property.

If you think consumption of fossil fuels like motor fuel needs to be greatly curtailed, start by greatly reducing your consumption of hydrocarbons. I estimate we burn less than 25% of the fossil fuels we did 20 years ago.

Don't like the financial system? Don't do business with big banks. Reduce your credit card use to minimum, get debt free, only do business with small local banks, and only as much as is necessary.

Industrial food system? Buy local, seasonal, and grow your own. Buy what you can store in bulk. Cut down on your food waste, and stop eating out as much.

General consumerism? Stop buying discretionary goods and junk. Buy used, or trade/barter for what you need.

Don't like how your tax dollars are spent? Reduce your taxable income as much as possible. If one develops habits of frugal living, stays out of debt, and produces much of what one needs, one can still save something for the future. The 'modern' consumer spends a lot of time, energy, and resources spinning their wheels and supporting intermediaries that add no value to anything, but consume at high levels. Stop supporting that wherever possible.

Will it change anything much besides your own life? Probably not, but when this system implodes of it's own massive input requirements and complexity, at least you'll be ahead of the curve.
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Re: Let's Crash the Global Economic System!

Unread postby onlooker » Thu 20 Oct 2016, 09:50:58

Ghung and Care , can I ask you. Assuming that everyone could and would try and live off grid. Is it really feasible on a mass scale? I think it is a fair question. Both of you seem very erudite, honestly I think you will find it is NOT feasible. So both of you are to be commended for your actions and as Ghung said foresight. However my interest has been and is how best to avoid as much as possible future suffering and chaos. Unfortunately , our massive presence and our interference with Nature and activation of processes that further destabilize Life support systems seem destined to play out to the bitter end
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Re: Let's Crash the Global Economic System!

Unread postby GHung » Thu 20 Oct 2016, 10:41:14

"Is it really feasible on a mass scale?"

Of course not. That's why I've never claimed it is. This is entirely about individual actions and local responses. That's the only way to avoid many of the traps society has set for itself, collectively.
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Re: Let's Crash the Global Economic System!

Unread postby dohboi » Thu 20 Oct 2016, 13:33:26

I believe there was a thread on this a few months ago when this essay first came out. I'll cast around a bit later to see if I can find it. Well worth further discussion, for sure!
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Re: Let's Crash the Global Economic System!

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Thu 20 Oct 2016, 15:14:39

Let me offer an opinion here. Passive resistance is one thing, but there is scant chance that enough will indulge in such as to have any impact on global systems. But don't go further - the advocacy of widespread disruption to power grids, financial systems, economic systems, agriculture, food distribution, fossil fuel sourcing and transport, or really any other parts of society's present infrastructure amount to advocating domestic terrorism.

I cannot endorse these views, I believe those of you who do are on dangerous ground, and are also skirting a violation of the charter at PO.com. It is fine to speculate what the results of such disruptions would be, and over the top to advocate such things. So please don't, coach all your comments in careful terms that make it clear that your are not advocating acts of terror, only speculating on what the results of such things might be.

Because you better believe that the above messages have already tripped word and syntax filters, and this thread is already being watched by government groups to whom your real identities are already known. Should your remarks face an unfortunate parallel to actual events anywhere in this country - perhaps as part of the upcoming national elections - you are going to be explaining yourselves to some very unpleasant law enforcement types who will be dropping words like Homeland Security and the Patriot Act.

Note that the thread title is definitely over the threshold, and the posts therein are borderline. Now have a nice day. :mrgreen:
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Re: Let's Crash the Global Economic System!

Unread postby GHung » Thu 20 Oct 2016, 15:57:40

Jeez, KJ, lost it yet? I haven't seen anyone in this thread advocating active "widespread disruption to power grids, financial systems, economic systems, agriculture, food distribution, fossil fuel sourcing and transport, or really any other parts of society's present infrastructure amount to advocating domestic terrorism." Your paranoia grows by the day. You REALLY think that those advocating not supporting BAU "have already tripped word and syntax filters, and this thread is already being watched by government groups to whom your real identities are already known. "??!!

You said; "I cannot endorse these views,...". I'm pretty sure nobody here gives a shit about what you do or don't endorse. Your air of superiority becomes obvious, and you aren't my daddy. But if you've become so paranoid and fearful of guilt by association, go TF away. Wouldn't want jackbooted storm troopers breaking down your door because you hang out online with folks who don't feel particularly good about supporting BAU terror against the planet.

You go on to say; "I believe those of you who do are on dangerous ground, and are also skirting a violation of the charter at PO.com." WTF? Who specifically in this thread fits that bizarre description? What's next? Do you think I should be held in solitary until I connect to your filthy power grid or open an account at Wells Fargo?
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Re: Let's Crash the Global Economic System!

Unread postby Hawkcreek » Thu 20 Oct 2016, 16:08:48

KaiserJeep wrote:Let me offer an opinion here. Passive resistance is one thing, but there is scant chance that enough will indulge in such as to have any impact on global systems. But don't go further - the advocacy of widespread disruption to power grids, financial systems, economic systems, agriculture, food distribution, fossil fuel sourcing and transport, or really any other parts of society's present infrastructure amount to advocating domestic terrorism.

I cannot endorse these views, I believe those of you who do are on dangerous ground, and are also skirting a violation of the charter at PO.com. It is fine to speculate what the results of such disruptions would be, and over the top to advocate such things. So please don't, coach all your comments in careful terms that make it clear that your are not advocating acts of terror, only speculating on what the results of such things might be.

Because you better believe that the above messages have already tripped word and syntax filters, and this thread is already being watched by government groups to whom your real identities are already known. Should your remarks face an unfortunate parallel to actual events anywhere in this country - perhaps as part of the upcoming national elections - you are going to be explaining yourselves to some very unpleasant law enforcement types who will be dropping words like Homeland Security and the Patriot Act.

Note that the thread title is definitely over the threshold, and the posts therein are borderline. Now have a nice day. :mrgreen:


Now that is ridiculous. The only person who has mentioned any illegal disruption of public services, or mentioned the "T" word, is you. You should take care in accusing people of terrorism, when they are only talking about perfectly legal activities.
Everything they have talked about is PASSIVE resistance techniques.
I suppose you want to make it against the law to spend our money as we choose?
The only problem is, they are right, and by being right, could upset the BAU lifestyle you endorse.
I started years ago in trying any legal method I could find to shield my income from taxes, and to spend what remains in areas that would support corporations as little as possible. You call that terrorism?
I hope to see the crash of corporate culture, but I would never do anything to cause that, except to spend my money on local products that will NOT support the thieving, lying, bastards at the top.
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Re: Let's Crash the Global Economic System!

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Thu 20 Oct 2016, 16:09:52

The actual thread title is "Let's Crash the Global Economic System!". Enough said.
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Re: Let's Crash the Global Economic System!

Unread postby onlooker » Thu 20 Oct 2016, 16:12:40

Kaiser, while I interpret your warning as well intended, I am at the point whereby I am not reluctant at all to say what is on my mind as I feel if the authorities really want to "get you", they can on almost any pretext real or contrived. So while, I see merit in the premise of this thread, I myself am NOT advocating anyone do anything. I am simply stating my opinion. Last I checked we are guaranteed freedom of expression in this country. As for this site, I am fully cognizant that anarchy/violent talk is forbidden, that is why I have never engaged in such talk. Lets be clear though, we are in a brave new world and soon our little comforts and security will be gone. So one is either prepared mentally or not.
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Re: Let's Crash the Global Economic System!

Unread postby Hawkcreek » Thu 20 Oct 2016, 16:53:48

KaiserJeep wrote:The actual thread title is "Let's Crash the Global Economic System!". Enough said.

Well, if I can do that by living off grid, and buying fruit and veggies from my neighbors, then it deserves to be crashed. Enough said.
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Re: Let's Crash the Global Economic System!

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Thu 20 Oct 2016, 17:57:14

Hawkcreek wrote:
KaiserJeep wrote:The actual thread title is "Let's Crash the Global Economic System!". Enough said.

Well, if I can do that by living off grid, and buying fruit and veggies from my neighbors, then it deserves to be crashed. Enough said.

+1

I read through this and in the posts saw nothing but passive resistance.

I've been doing that since 9 years ago when I got fed up with a lot of things, retired early, and promptly reduced all my economic activity except investing by about half overall.

Two things I wanted to stop supporting via massive income taxes were the various war efforts, and the hordes of ineffective wealth transfer programs that seem net to mainly cause people to call for even more of the same (but don't actually "fix" much poverty).

Later I decided climate change was a "real thing" in the short term, so turned efforts toward burning far less fossil fuels.

Each to their own.

I respectfully don't think this kind of behavior will realistically crash the system, though. I think the system is far more flexible and durable and adaptable than the "fast crash" crowd gives it credit for. I also don't think a 5% downturn would do it, and if you got 10% of folks to cooperate and lower consumption/spending by half over time, that's what you'd get -- IF you could stop the global population from growing (and good luck with that).

...

BUT, IMO, it doesn't matter. To me it's a matter of principle. If living differently as a matter of conscience is "bad" in the US, then the US no longer stands for things it claims to stand for like freedom of speech and expression, and self-determination.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Let's Crash the Global Economic System!

Unread postby GHung » Thu 20 Oct 2016, 18:25:00

O_S said;

"I respectfully don't think this kind of behavior will realistically crash the system, though. I think the system is far more flexible and durable and adaptable than the "fast crash" crowd gives it credit for. I also don't think a 5% downturn would do it, and if you got 10% of folks to cooperate and lower consumption/spending by half over time, that's what you'd get -- IF you could stop the global population from growing (and good luck with that)."


The combination of contraction-promoting proceses will have knock-on effects. As few as 5% 'pre-collapsniks', people like us that have had it with BAU, along with a growing number of involuntary recruits will send the overall industrial project into a death spiral. Nature abhors a vacuum, and much of industrial age abandonment will be filled with things most of us won't like much. See my reference to Greer, above, about failed states. Coming soon to a state near you?
Or will KJ's police state fill that void?
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Re: Let's Crash the Global Economic System!

Unread postby careinke » Thu 20 Oct 2016, 22:57:45

onlooker wrote:Ghung and Care , can I ask you. Assuming that everyone could and would try and live off grid. Is it really feasible on a mass scale? I think it is a fair question. Both of you seem very erudite, honestly I think you will find it is NOT feasible. So both of you are to be commended for your actions and as Ghung said foresight. However my interest has been and is how best to avoid as much as possible future suffering and chaos. Unfortunately , our massive presence and our interference with Nature and activation of processes that further destabilize Life support systems seem destined to play out to the bitter end


If you are asking is there one solution that applies to everyone, then the answer is no. However, there are thousands of different solutions that can be combined in trillions of different configurations depending on the local environment. In that sense, it is possible.

If you are asking if I could personally live of grid in relative comfort for the rest of my life, then yes I can do that and probably a lot of people could too. But that is not enough for me. I want to help fix the earth we have already broken. That is the legacy I want to leave to my grandchildren.

The current debt based continual growth system is killing the planet. The sooner this system is neutralized the better. My ethics do not advocate the use of violence with the exception of self defense. So the best way for me to speed up the crash is to withdraw as much as possible from the current economic system.

Probably the most effective action is to become debt free. Every dollar of debt you pay off, you eliminate around 9 dollars from the economy. :)
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Re: Let's Crash the Global Economic System!

Unread postby careinke » Thu 20 Oct 2016, 23:13:23

KaiserJeep wrote:I cannot endorse these views, I believe those of you who do are on dangerous ground, and are also skirting a violation of the charter at PO.com. It is fine to speculate what the results of such disruptions would be, and over the top to advocate such things. So please don't, coach all your comments in careful terms that make it clear that your are not advocating acts of terror, only speculating on what the results of such things might be.


But you do endorse my views. :) It is obvious by your actions. You have deliberately reduced your carbon footprint using appropriate technology. I assume you have very little debt, with maybe the exception of a mortgage or car payment. You probably have multiple sources of income and invest your surpluses into becoming more resilient.

Welcome to the cause. There are more ways you can help. Think community involvement.
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Re: Let's Crash the Global Economic System!

Unread postby careinke » Fri 21 Oct 2016, 00:21:44

Well so far this has been getting the reactions I had been hoping for. Thanks for everyone's inputs so far, both positive and negative. All sides should be explored.

KJ - Thanks for your concern. Believe me I am well aware of the line not to cross for fear of retaliation by TPTB. They carry way bigger sticks than me, so that coupled with my commitment to non violent passive aggression, makes direct confrontation a non player. Besides there are a multitude of legal methods available that improve the life of the individual while still weakening the debt based monetary system. Read the pdf I posted at the beginning of the thread. I think as an engineer, you will like it.

GHung - Great inputs, thanks. There are lots of ways to help this along, and I am constantly coming across new techniques to try, especially from sites like this.

Hawkreek, onlooker and others - I see your frustrations with the current system and offer Holmgren's as a starting point to make the BAU, debt based, free range slave system a thing no longer necessary.

I expected to hear from CID telling us it is all to late. Maybe so, but hey what else do you have to do while waiting for TEOTWAWKI. 8)

Anyway here are some of my favorite techniques to push this along.

1. Eliminate debt - If you understand how money works today, you know it is created through debt. There are lots of sources that explain how this works, just google it. It works out that for every dollar of debt you pay off, you take about 9 dollars out of the system. Contracting the money supply, leads to deflation, which places a lot of stress on a system based on inflation.

2. Try and avoid banks - Keep as much currency as you feel comfortable with in cash. I realize you need to have your paycheck put somewhere so you can pay your bills. Consider a local Credit Union instead of a large bank. Spread your savings into various forms of wealth in addition to cash, silver bullion, bitcoin, and local currencies are all options.

3. Invest the money you save into more preparedness/resiliency and produce a surplus - Example I'm contemplating Biochar. I'm exploring investing some of my surplus into producing biochar. This will save me money on fertilizer (forever), improve the productivity of my gardens and orchards, reduce watering costs and sequester carbon for hundreds to thousands of years at a rate of 4lbs of CO2 for every pound of biochar I burry. The point being I don't spend the surplus on flying somewhere for a vacation, validating Jeavon's paradox.

Anyway, I'd like to see more comments on this topic so I can flush out my thoughts on this.
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Re: Let's Crash the Global Economic System!

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 21 Oct 2016, 00:30:23

I want to help fix the earth we have already broken. That is the legacy I want to leave to my grandchildren.

Yes, that is the hope that people see this as a Trust and responsibility to do whatever they can to make things better or at least not worse for the sake of posterity. We are fast advanced in having dismantled the fabric of life but Nature is resilient and so are we. I wish all of you the best :)
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Re: Let's Crash the Global Economic System!

Unread postby WildRose » Fri 21 Oct 2016, 03:02:04

I fully endorse each person's decision to opt out of the current financial scheme as much as possible. It's the only smart thing to do. Who's going to take care of you when you're older? If you're bridled by debt even in your 50's, you'll likely have a hard time socking away the amount of money financial institutions tell you that you'll need to have any kind of life after you retire. If you need to drive old cars, limit your driving, grow your food, live off grid, repair old bicycles, host community clothing swaps instead of spending $20 for a 2-year-old's T-shirts, then that is what you should do to take care of your own interests. That is what our parents (or grandparents) did before the wild spending spree started in the 80's; they called it "thrift" and "resourcefulness."

Only a small percentage of us will ever have our own land and be truly independent. But even for the majority in the cities, reducing the amount of income you need to get by is doable. The major consideration, as I see it, is housing. Home prices being what they are, and people having to mortgage such huge amounts of money even to get into a small starter home, is discouraging, overwhelming for many. How do people get around this? A lot of younger people are renting homes together to cut costs, or two young families could buy a house together. If you have a small home with a fair-sized yard, it's possible to grow a good quantity of food using all the space you have available. Other than this, maybe apartment complexes with large community gardens? And supporting small local farms as much as possible.
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Re: Let's Crash the Global Economic System!

Unread postby dohboi » Fri 21 Oct 2016, 08:24:34

"A lot of younger people are renting homes together to cut costs, or two young families could buy a house together. "

This is actually illegal in my city. We're working to change that.
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