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Climate Refugees Pt. 2

Re: Will the "North" shoot on Climate Refugees soon?!

Unread postby M_B_S » Thu 22 Jun 2017, 08:45:22

Ibon wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:If you look back at the pictures of both Americans and Europeans after WW2 from 1946 to 1960 you can see that we were a lot thinner then. Perhaps part of the blame would lie in the great depression which was one of (In Europe) causes of the war but the war certainly made it worse. And if you look at the Russian/USSR side of it there are few pictures because millions died of starvation and were not around to have their pictures taken in 1950.
Don't discount war as a possible vehicle which will achieve major reductions in human population in the future.


That is very true. I was thinking of combat deaths and not so much how food distribution is disrupted during times of war.


@ Ibon

Dont forget WWIII could be seen as a solution for somebodys crazy leader reason..... 8O :shock:
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Re: Will the "North" shoot on Climate Refugees soon?!

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 22 Jun 2017, 11:13:57

Ibon wrote:
onlooker wrote:
So ask yourself, what could cause a cessation of international shipping? War? Surely. But also a collapse of trade and/or financial agreements.


Or the demise of the Oil Industry


You only have to consider the vast amount of petroleum products that are used in excess of what is needed for food production to realize that fossil duel depletion will NOT be a major factor in food shortages. Also shipping grain by marine freight is one of the most fuel efficient means of transportation.


Agreed shipping is efficient. I'm wondering about the international financial transactions. How is the producing company going to get paid?
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Re: Will the "North" shoot on Climate Refugees soon?!

Unread postby Ibon » Thu 22 Jun 2017, 11:18:11

Newfie wrote:
Ibon wrote:
onlooker wrote:
So ask yourself, what could cause a cessation of international shipping? War? Surely. But also a collapse of trade and/or financial agreements.


Or the demise of the Oil Industry


You only have to consider the vast amount of petroleum products that are used in excess of what is needed for food production to realize that fossil duel depletion will NOT be a major factor in food shortages. Also shipping grain by marine freight is one of the most fuel efficient means of transportation.


Agreed shipping is efficient. I'm wondering about the international financial transactions. How is the producing company going to get paid?


If you study the potato famine in Ireland you can see how delibrrate profiteering starved a nation so your point is clear. We do not need physical constraints or climate change impacts ro trigger mass famine.
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Re: Will the "North" shoot on Climate Refugees soon?!

Unread postby onlooker » Thu 22 Jun 2017, 11:45:29

My point with the Oil Industry was that you do not need actual physical shortages to short circuit the Industry. When the toll or burden of maintaining this Industry outweighs its benefit, maintaining it loses its economic rationale. In fact, on the Oil threads, we are arguing how close we are to this situation. Someday, the Oil Industry will cease operation but Oil will still exist somewhere out there.
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Re: Will the "North" shoot on Climate Refugees soon?!

Unread postby dohboi » Sun 25 Jun 2017, 16:07:41

IIRC, health levels, by many measures, improved in the UK and the US among civilians during WWII--less meat, less dairy, and more exercise is good for you, so that shouldn't be so much of a surprise.

The time when many folks in the US really were undernourished, when most were 'losing' the 'war' of the rich against the poor. A very large portion of those who signed up to serve for WWII were rejected because they were just too mal-nourished after a decade of depression.

More to the point of this thread (cross posted to GW/CC thread, where it is also relevant):

Deep-reaching ramifications of CC...interview:

http://www.truthdig.com/avbooth/item/ch ... i_20170624

...how climate change interacts with economic neoliberalism and post-Cold-War militarism.

“Much of the global south is littered with cheap weapons and veterans of previous conflicts,” Parenti tells Hedges. “Underneath a lot of these ethnic and religious conflicts, we see that there is a climate element.”
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Re: Will the "North" shoot on Climate Refugees soon?!

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 25 Jun 2017, 16:59:12

FWIW I've read that a lot of rural conscripts in the civil war were extremely under nourished.

Also Japan had that problem and addressed it as far back as the 1880s when they copied the US Navy dietary guidelines and then the ARmy set up schools across the country to teach folks how to change cook proteins.
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Re: Will the "North" shoot on Climate Refugees soon?!

Unread postby dolanbaker » Mon 26 Jun 2017, 02:22:05

These days, the issue is lack of fitness amongst new recruits, a generation of video games and over protective parents nas produced teenagers who are less fit than the average 40 year old.
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Re: Will the "North" shoot on Climate Refugees soon?!

Unread postby M_B_S » Mon 26 Jun 2017, 03:13:30

dolanbaker wrote:These days, the issue is lack of fitness amongst new recruits, a generation of video games and over protective parents nas produced teenagers who are less fit than the average 40 year old.

Image
Not if you teach your "Alexanders" like Alexander the Great was educated by Aristoteles or King Leonidas from Sparta was teached/trained or Achilles or make a jump Ghandi :idea:

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A king is not born he is made!

In the End all what matters is what YOU have done!

And your name will be remembered forever too!
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Re: Will the "North" shoot on Climate Refugees soon?!

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 26 Jun 2017, 18:55:52

There's more than one way the 'North' can 'shoot' the South:

As Lake Chad vanishes, seven million people are on the brink of starvation.

https://newrepublic.com/article/143019/ ... starvation
Not so long ago, Lake Chad was one of the largest bodies of water in Africa. The thick reeds and vital wetlands around its basin provided vast freshwater reserves, breeding grounds for fish, fertile soil for agriculture, and grasslands where farmers grazed their animals. In 1963, it spanned almost 10,000 square miles, an expanse roughly the size of Maryland.

But as climate change has taken its toll, the lake has shrunk by 90 percent. Today, only 965 square miles remain. Wetlands have given way to sand dunes. Farmers have abandoned their fields. Those who still live by the lake struggle to survive, beset by chronic drought and the slow onset of ecological catastrophe.
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Re: Will the "North" shoot on Climate Refugees soon?!

Unread postby M_B_S » Wed 28 Jun 2017, 13:23:47

Italy will reject refugees very soon while the own water supply is critical low

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/wo ... 5e27733fc6

Heatwave forces Rome to turn off 2800 water fountains


A stifling heatwave has left ­Romans more grateful than ever for their 2800 drinking fountains.

For the first time since the open-tap fountains were introduced in 1874, however, and just as residents and tourists need them most, city officials plan to turn them off.

“Plans are still being made, but if we shut them off, we can save 1 per cent of Rome’s water supply, which is unfortunately essential during this drought,” an official said....
********************
This is only the beginning of the 21th century reality in Italy (2017)

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... from-libya

Italy considers closing its ports to boats carrying migrants


http://www.lastampa.it/2017/06/23/ester ... agina.html

State of emergency declared in parts of Italy due to drought

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*****************

Believe me the politicians will close the borders very soon or they will lay near a wall with bullets in his/her head.
killed by own people.

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Re: Will the "North" shoot on Climate Refugees soon?!

Unread postby M_B_S » Thu 17 Aug 2017, 02:20:27

“Blic Online” on refugee crisis: Serbia will defend borders using weapons

Serbia wants to enforce its borders. Just like neighbouring Bulgaria, Belgrade believes the E.U. Turkey Deal might burst, with consequences for the country’s borders, which would consist of a lot of movement across the latter. The Serbian government even wants to use the military to curb that movement.

A few days ago, Bulgaria’s caretaker Prime Minister Ognyan Gerdzhikov had announced, Bulgaria had taken “additional measures”, by enforcing the southern border. The country is increasingly getting nervous because of the latest threats from Ankara, according to which the border might be opened to refugees any time now.

An “increased flow of migrants” was possible “within the next few days”, Gerdzhikov said on Tuesday. So far, no borders have been opened anywhere. And maybe it won’t happen, since 3 billion (U.K. English: milliard) Euro in E.U. money for Turkey is a pretty good argument to leave it that way.

Now Serbia is preparing for the “darkest scenario”, as the publication “Blic Online” puts it. But the government would “always protect the country and the population”, Labour Minister Aleksandar Vulin said, according to the daily.

http://sofiaglobe.com/2017/03/18/blic-o ... g-weapons/
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A logical step while Turkey is also using walls + weapons to shoot "Refugees" and /or Terrorist @ its border with Iran Syria dead.
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Re: Will the "North" shoot on Climate Refugees soon?!

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 02 Sep 2017, 07:24:26

It exactly what you had in mind but working in that direction.

USA has bomb d a bridge to strand a convoy of IS fighters and their families. They had come to a truce agreement with Syria and Hezbolla and were to move to a new location. But we weren't part of the deal.

It that I'm a fan of IS, I don't like US involvement there. But at this stage they are pretty much refugees. Odd situation, not likely to make he USA any friends.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-41134559
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Re: Will the "North" shoot on Climate Refugees soon?!

Unread postby Cog » Sat 02 Sep 2017, 07:26:17

Kill every single one of them. They are not refugees, they are former and future terrorists.
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Re: Will the "North" shoot on Climate Refugees soon?!

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sat 02 Sep 2017, 07:47:06

Cog wrote:Kill every single one of them. They are not refugees, they are former and future terrorists.

I hope we haven't sunk to that level of barbarity as of yet. We may be pushed to that at sometime in the future but it is not something to look forward to.
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Re: Will the "North" shoot on Climate Refugees soon?!

Unread postby onlooker » Sat 02 Sep 2017, 08:12:14

Though I echo your sentiments V, I also see realism in what Cog is saying. If it comes to that, to life boat ethics, one should align with one's tribe and family over some strangers or foreigners.
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Re: Will the "North" shoot on Climate Refugees soon?!

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 02 Sep 2017, 10:50:59

Cog,
You are just so CUDDLY!

I wasn't passing judgement, just noting the facts. Refuge vs terrorist is a subjective assessment.
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Re: Will the "North" shoot on Climate Refugees soon?!

Unread postby dolanbaker » Sat 02 Sep 2017, 11:10:49

vtsnowedin wrote:
Cog wrote:Kill every single one of them. They are not refugees, they are former and future terrorists.

I hope we haven't sunk to that level of barbarity as of yet. We may be pushed to that at sometime in the future but it is not something to look forward to.

The point is that these people are the very same ones who are trying to set up the IS in the first place, left to their own devices, what is the chances of them trying again after they have regrouped elsewhere.

At the absolute least they should be in an internment camp!
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Re: Will the "North" shoot on Climate Refugees soon?!

Unread postby dohboi » Sat 02 Sep 2017, 14:19:26

Mostly "these people" are the ones fleeing the violence and the economic disruptions that it causes. Most despise any from their countries that would bring the very violence they are fleeing to their new countries.

I do wonder how many recent immigrants cog and dolan know, and whether they themselves have ancestors who were immigrants.

I live in a neighborhood that has the highest percentage of Somali and East African refugees in the US, and I have zero fear of them doing anything like terrorism in my 'hood...I'm much more frightened of white suburban trump supporters and other racists coming in and committing acts of terror, as they have already.

And it is a well established fact that the kind of hate on display here directly aids and abets the goals of the actual terrorists, both Anglo and Muslim and other...good work boys! :twisted:
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Re: Will the "North" shoot on Climate Refugees soon?!

Unread postby dolanbaker » Sat 02 Sep 2017, 14:34:21

This particular group of people, are the remnants of an IS army and their families, an army that could potentially reset and go on the attack if allowed to do so. This strand (of the thread) of the discussion is about fleeing IS terrorists.
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Re: Will the "North" shoot on Climate Refugees soon?!

Unread postby dohboi » Sat 02 Sep 2017, 14:43:06

Ah, I didn't see that Newf article on the last page.

Still, I bet the vast majority would be happy to put the war and conflict behind them.

I serve a former general from the Somali army every day. I have zero fear of him.

But I guess some people are more full of fear than others.

That's where most hate comes from, after all.
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