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Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 2 (merged)

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby asg70 » Thu 22 Aug 2019, 00:20:54

GHung wrote:Not sure what Tesla's PV issue is.


I do. Elon Musk.

The fish rots from the head down.

I have had trouble keeping up with executive departures lately, BTW, including Elon's right-hand-man JB Straubel (IMHO, a very serious inflection point)

Here's the most recent:

https://electrek.co/2019/08/21/tesla-he ... ructuring/

If it keeps going like this Tesla will be nothing but Musk with bloodshot eyes running around the factory by himself with a bunch of empty redbull cans stacked against the walls.

HALL OF SHAME:
-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
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Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby GHung » Thu 22 Aug 2019, 08:16:46

asg70 wrote:
GHung wrote:Not sure what Tesla's PV issue is.


I do. Elon Musk.

The fish rots from the head down.

I have had trouble keeping up with executive departures lately, BTW, including Elon's right-hand-man JB Straubel (IMHO, a very serious inflection point)

Here's the most recent:

https://electrek.co/2019/08/21/tesla-he ... ructuring/

If it keeps going like this Tesla will be nothing but Musk with bloodshot eyes running around the factory by himself with a bunch of empty redbull cans stacked against the walls.


Yes. Musk built, installed, wired, and personally inspected the PV arrays that caught fire? Thanks!
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Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby asg70 » Thu 22 Aug 2019, 08:55:22

GHung wrote:Yes. Musk built, installed, wired, and personally inspected the PV arrays that caught fire? Thanks!


Boy did you miss my point.

My point is that mismanagement trickles down into these sorts of quality-control problems. He is ultimately responsible. Read up on how he specifically bucks industry standards, thinking they're unnecessary. His naivete and arrogance is his undoing.

The joke I cracked was about him creating a hostile work environment which makes it so nobody will want to work there, combined with his micromanagerial style of getting into everyone's business when he's in fact not a jack of all trades the way he thinks he is.

I thought all of this was obvious but apparently not.

HALL OF SHAME:
-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
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Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Thu 22 Aug 2019, 12:43:11

GHung wrote:
GHung wrote:Not sure what Tesla's PV issue is.

I'm no electrician by any means, but a couple really blatant things caught my eye in the CNBC article I read about it:

Walmart claimed, among myriad complaints, that “Tesla routinely deployed individuals to inspect the solar systems who lacked basic solar training and knowledge.” In the suit, they also alleged that Tesla failed to ground its solar and electrical systems properly, and that Tesla-installed solar panels on-site at Walmart stores contained a high number of defects that were visible to the naked eye, and which Tesla should have found and repaired before they led to fires.


https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/20/walmart ... tores.html

(Red font mine, for emphasis).

Now, as cheap as Walmart is re operations, I very much doubt this is just made up. Presumably, if their legal team has the intelligence of a carrot, they'll have photographic evidence of the visual faults for the court case. And objective documentation for the other complaints.

And, given Tesla's reputation for blatant quality problems in their auto products overall at an alarmingly frequent rate vs. the competition, though this sounds really, really bad -- it also sounds like the kind of problems a Tesla product might well have, real world -- IMO.

Reputation matters.
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Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Thu 22 Aug 2019, 12:58:11

Another article with more detail / background on the Tesla Solar Roof fires at Walmart.

If the allegations are even remotely true, this has to be TERRIBLE news for Tesla. And again, given the "three stooges" way the car operations are run, per incidents and customer complaints in many articles and that trend being verified by overall data from Consumer Reports, my instinct is to believe Walmart's overall side of the story.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/factbox- ... 38593.html

Oh, and this definitely makes me more cautious about solar panels on my roof in general. I was already concerned about the roof leaking / roof warranty issue. But add to that the fire risk and the way so many companies don't do consistent work (not just solar companies) generally, and this doesn't look like a no-brainer to me -- even IF the economics hold up if nothing goes wrong. (I might still consider a set for my back yard, away from the house, if the economics are right).

But of course given the amount of Musk worship that exists, I expect people will go right on having Tesla install solar panels on their houses.
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Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby GHung » Thu 22 Aug 2019, 14:08:49

Outcast_Searcher wrote:Another article with more detail / background on the Tesla Solar Roof fires at Walmart.

If the allegations are even remotely true, this has to be TERRIBLE news for Tesla. And again, given the "three stooges" way the car operations are run, per incidents and customer complaints in many articles and that trend being verified by overall data from Consumer Reports, my instinct is to believe Walmart's overall side of the story.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/factbox- ... 38593.html

Oh, and this definitely makes me more cautious about solar panels on my roof in general. I was already concerned about the roof leaking / roof warranty issue. But add to that the fire risk and the way so many companies don't do consistent work (not just solar companies) generally, and this doesn't look like a no-brainer to me -- even IF the economics hold up if nothing goes wrong. (I might still consider a set for my back yard, away from the house, if the economics are right).

But of course given the amount of Musk worship that exists, I expect people will go right on having Tesla install solar panels on their houses.


Purely for clarity's sake, from your link:

Walmart hired SolarCity to install solar panel systems on at least 244 of its stores. Tesla bought SolarCity in 2016, and Walmart alleges that Tesla did not fix the problems it inherited and was negligent itself. .....


So Tesla apparently didn't manufacture or install these products, only failed to fix the problems it bought into.

Then the article goes on to say:

It found Tesla put wires near sharp points and metal edges, used incorrect connectors that built up heat and failed properly to tighten connectors, used plastic tools with insufficient strength and plumbing tools, and improperly grounded systems, and kept poor records. ......


Uh,,, see above where Solar City did the installations. Tesla's alleged failure was in not vetting the quality of the installs it "inherited", and/or not correcting problems properly . Also:

Over the course of Walmart inspections it says it finds hotspots in solar panels' cracked sheets, compromising electrical insulation. ....


I have over two decades of fairly deep experience with PV panels of all types and can't make sense of this allegation. All of the problems I have seen regarding "hot spots", fried connections, burned wires, etc. have all been due to poor connections, bad/improper hardware (especially using stainless steel as a conductor), bad wiring (especially undersized wiring or using exposed THHN), higher than recommended voltages, and lack of proper protections (fuses, breakers, grounding, bonding, etc.). I've never seen a PV panel that overheated electrically (internally) or had electrically related "hotspots". PV panels tend to fail "safe". The junctions and diodes go first which means an open circuit. And note, I've never had ANY of these issues with my own installations. I over-engineer everything and keep voltages in a reasonable range. Then, again, I've never worked with Solar City panels. Not sure why they would deviate from industry standards (if they did) which are mature and well proven.

Probably billions of PV panels have been installed worldwide, millions have been in service for years/decades, and I've heard of very few catastrophic failures; virtually all related to installation and balance-of-system issues. As you allude to, using Solar City / Tesla installations as a benchmark for PV reliability and safety is like using the crappiest car as the benchmark for automobiles.
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Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby Plantagenet » Thu 22 Aug 2019, 15:31:01

GHung wrote: Tesla apparently didn't manufacture or install these products, only failed to fix the problems it bought into.


Musk and Tesla knew all about these problems when Tesla bought Solar City. Musk was one of the co-founders of Solar city along with two of his cousins and Musk remained a major shareholder in Solar City stock shares at the time of the buyout by Tesla.

So why did Musk have one of his companies (Tesla) buy another one of his companies (Solar City)?

Solar City stock was way down and Musk would've lost a lot of money if Solar city went bankrupt so Musk had Tesla buy Solar City to bail himself out (and bail his cousins out) from taking huge losses in Solar City stock.

I and many others predicted that Tesla would be hurt by its Solar City acquisition, and sure enough its happening. The buyout was a good deal for Musk personally, but not so great for Tesla shareholders who now are holding the bag on a huge but poorly run money-losing acquisition.

Cheers!
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Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby asg70 » Thu 22 Aug 2019, 19:51:29

The SolarCity acquisition is a separate blunder altogether. Tesla was aware SolarCity was loaded with debt and a money-loser but there's no evidence it knew of fire-hazards. What IS clear from the data is that Tesla attempted to cut-corners, which is part of its overall modus-operandi, and naively thought nothing bad would come of it. Musk keeps thinking he doesn't have to follow established industry best-practices and each and every time that bites him in the ass.

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-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
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Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sun 25 Aug 2019, 10:00:34

Now Amazon is also complaining that the solar cells that SolarCityTesla sold them are also spontaneously combusting, just like the ones sold to Wal-mart.

What is it with Musk and the self-combusting products? Is it just a coincidence that his cars sometime self-combust and so do his solar cells?

Image
Yo Musk.....why products go boom?

Cheers!
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Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby Plantagenet » Mon 26 Aug 2019, 11:21:04

Vanity Fair has just published a major expose exposing the financial shenanigans Musk pulled off when he had Tesla buy Solar City (and bail him and his cousins out from huge financial losses)

how-elon-musk-gambled-tesla-to-save-solarcity

Some of the major reveals in the article:

1. The Solar City "solar roof" product that Musk hyped in 2016 to get Tesla to buy Solar City was apparently a phony mock up. To this day the product still hasn't been released and there is no date set for future release.

2. New York State invested 750 million in a Solar City factory to make the "solar roof" tiles that were never made....its possible some of that money was shifted into Tesla

3. Musk effectively controlled the TESLA Board of Directors that voted to buy Solar City---a clear conflict of interest since Musk himself had huge investments in Solar City

4. Solar City was plagued with quality control issues on its products all along...this isn't a new development.

Cheers!
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Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Mon 26 Aug 2019, 13:29:36

Plantagenet wrote:Vanity Fair has just published a major expose exposing the financial shenanigans Musk pulled off when he had Tesla buy Solar City (and bail him and his cousins out from huge financial losses)

how-elon-musk-gambled-tesla-to-save-solarcity

Cheers!

I would also point out that Bethany McLean, the author of this piece, was the co-author of the outstanding book "The Smartest Guy in the Room" -- the excellent, detailed story of the Enron scandal.

Despite all the FUD the Tesla bulls are throwing at this, trying to discredit it, just having her name on the article says a LOT re its likely overall credibility, IMO.
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Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby StarvingLion » Sat 31 Aug 2019, 12:15:36

Anybody who pays more than $10K US (as of 2020) for an EV is:

A Financial Idiot

In 2025, that will be $5K.

In other words, this Tesla scam is the equivalent of selling $100 bills for $50.

The EV Shitheads want to tax the Oil Industry which already can't pay any taxes.
The EV Shitheads want the broke governments to subsidize EV's when they can barely keep the food stores running.

The Musk con sticks a trillion $ by looting the treasury in his bank account and you suckers congratulate him...HAHAHAHAHA.

You "people" are so braindead its beyond hope.
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Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby StarvingLion » Sat 31 Aug 2019, 17:31:40

Admit it, the

EV cannot use Lithium or Cobalt. Can't source it.

You people need to invent a Water device that isn't a fuel cell.

Turn the ocean into Ghawar Oil Field.

Thats the only hope.

You know I'm right as always.

Bye now
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Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sun 01 Sep 2019, 13:00:18

StarvingLion wrote:Admit it, the

EV cannot use Lithium or Cobalt. Can't source it.

You people need to invent a Water device that isn't a fuel cell.

Turn the ocean into Ghawar Oil Field.

Thats the only hope.

You know I'm right as always.

Bye now

Well, why don't you go ahead and credibly document how there is no lithium or cobalt, then?

Oh, and why don't you disprove the fact that technologies which reduce the amount of cobalt needed in LI batteries is being reduced significantly, via work Tesla is doing?

(Hint: google: "tesla reduced cobalt in batteries").

You can't of course, and yet you continue to spew such nonsense. Why bother?
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Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sun 01 Sep 2019, 13:11:12

StarvingLion wrote:The EV Shitheads want to tax the Oil Industry which already can't pay any taxes.

...

You "people" are so braindead its beyond hope.

In the real world, 12% or so re an effective tax rate isn't 0%. If you don't LIKE the rules re corporate tax rates, I suggest you try doing something about it instead of whining and lying like a small child.

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/i ... -taxes.asp

MANY, MANY businesses get all sorts of tax breaks by the way, to incent businesses to produce things, build things, etc. When GM or Apple doesn't pay taxes in a given year due to deferrments, loss carryforwards, etc., there is always lots of shrill yelling and crying on the left -- but it doesn't mean those companies/industries "don't pay taxes" -- at least to people with economic acumen (and ability to look things up) higher than, say, an eggplant.

...

And oh, by the way, it's not as if the oil industry isn't making plenty of money, even with moderate oil prices. (Big hint: when 2019 isn't a record, it doesn't mean zero profits, a concept fast crash doomers, who call almost EVERYTHING that isn't record profits "a crash" seems unable to comprehend).

I wouldn't call near record profits in 2018 being unable to make any money, for example:

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=39413

...

Now, if the oil industry objectively can't make any money for say, 5 straight years, re false claims by the ETP Bozo, be SURE and get back to us on how the oil industry can't afford to pay taxes, because if THAT happens, you MAY begin to have a point, at least for the short term.
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Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 25 Sep 2019, 17:10:32

I'm sorry -- I know its a very serious situation-- but I laughed out loud when I read this TESLA story. A truck was transporting multiple Teslas down highway I-80 in Nevada and the Teslas spontaneously combusted on the truck as it was driving down the freeway.

fully-engulfed-flames-truck-hauling-tesla-vehicles-spontaneously-combusts-i-80]

This just happened, so there isn't a lot of information yet. The freeway has been closed and four separate fire crews are apparently trying to put out the truckload of burning Teslas.

The Tesla super-factory is in Nevada, so this truckload of new Teslas may have just left the factory en route to delivery somewhere.......but instead one or perhaps all of them spontaneously combusted.

I can't wait to see what excuse Elon Musk comes up with this time to explain why a whole truckload of Teslas spontaneously combusted. :roll:

Cheers!
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Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby kublikhan » Wed 25 Sep 2019, 17:42:56

Plantagenet wrote:I'm sorry -- I know its a very serious situation-- but I laughed out loud when I read this TESLA story. A truck was transporting multiple Teslas down highway I-80 in Nevada and the Teslas spontaneously combusted on the truck as it was driving down the freeway.

fully-engulfed-flames-truck-hauling-tesla-vehicles-spontaneously-combusts-i-80]

This just happened, so there isn't a lot of information yet. The freeway has been closed and four separate fire crews are apparently trying to put out the truckload of burning Teslas.

The Tesla super-factory is in Nevada, so this truckload of new Teslas may have just left the factory en route to delivery somewhere.......but instead one or perhaps all of them spontaneously combusted.

I can't wait to see what excuse Elon Musk comes up with this time to explain why a whole truckload of Teslas spontaneously combusted. :roll:

Cheers!
That's not what the news article says. It says the truck caught fire, not the Tesla's spontaneously combusted. But as usual zerohedge links to a legitimate story but conjures up a clickbait headline. It may turn out that this was caused by a spontaneously combusting Tesla, but we don't know that yet. All we know as of now is the truck caught fire.

A truck hauling Tesla vehicles caught fire Tuesday night on Interstate 80 near Carlin, forcing the Nevada Highway Patrol to close the freeway to eastbound traffic.

The incident was called in at about 9:10 p.m.

The truck’s cargo of electric vehicles was fully engulfed in flames.

NHP closed the eastbound lane of the freeway just west of Carlin in order to clean up debris. Work continued into the morning.

Eureka Sheriff's Office, Carlin Fire Department and the Elko County Fire Protection District responded, as well as City of Elko and Lee Engine Company.

Further details on the incident were not available from the highway patrol.
Truck hauling electric vehicles catches fire on I-80 near Carlin

The last time this happened it wasn't a short in the Teslas that caused the fire but a problem with the truck itself so it's best not to jump to conclusions.

July 2nd 2018 - A semi-truck carrying Tesla vehicles caught fire early Thursday morning on I-80 east near Patrick. The driver said that the front axles heated up, and then caught fire, but luckily none of the cars inside were affected. No injuries were reported, and traffic was not blocked at any point.
Semi-Truck Hauling Teslas Catches Fire on I-80 Near Patrick
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Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 25 Sep 2019, 18:13:29

kublikhan wrote: the news article ... says the truck caught fire, not the Tesla's spontaneously combusted. But as usual zerohedge links to a legitimate story but conjures up a clickbait headline. It may turn out that this was caused by a spontaneously combusting Tesla, but we don't know that yet. All we know as of now is the truck caught fire.


Good point. Thats why I like your posts so much. You are very thoughtful in your appraisal of most things.

The image of an entire truck of Teslas spontaneously combusting may just be clickbait.

Congrats to you for catching that.

Cheers!

PS....if the ICE truck caused the fire that burned up the Teslas that would be a first! There are plenty of Teslas that have caught on fire and burned up the Ice vehicles around them, but I can't think of any cases where the ICE vehicle was the first to catch on fire.

It will be interesting to see how this finally turns out ........
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Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 25 Sep 2019, 18:21:54

I just googled on the truck fire and found.......an older story about a car-carrier truck full of Teslas that burned up in Nevada back in August.

trailer-full-burnt-teslas-found-mysteriously-parked-i-80-nevada-

In this case Tesla blamed the fire on the brakes on the trailer, which supposedly caught fire and burned up 7 Teslas on the back of the truck. Wow! That must have been one heck of a large brake fire, especially when you consider that brake pads are inflammable and so is brake fluid. And even more mysteriously, the tires on the trailer seen OK! Somehow the brake fire didn't touch the tires, but instead only burned things up in the trailer. And what was in the truck trailer? There were the charred remains of 7 Teslas, all completely incinerated!!!

------------------

Tesla really should fix its cars AND take better care of it's delivery trucks. Thats two big truck fires in two months!! Tesla is burning up hundreds of thousands of dollars of inventory just trying to truck the cars to the buyers.
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Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Wed 25 Sep 2019, 18:53:22

Plantagenet wrote:I just googled on the truck fire and found.......an older story about a car-carrier truck full of Teslas that burned up in Nevada back in August.

trailer-full-burnt-teslas-found-mysteriously-parked-i-80-nevada-

In this case Tesla blamed the fire on the brakes on the truck, which supposedly caught fire and burned up 7 Teslas on the back of the truck. Wow! That must have been one heck of a large brake fire, especially when you consider that brake pads are inflammable and so is brake fluid. And even more mysteriously, the truck itself appears mostly OK! Its just all 7 Teslas that were incinerated!!!

------------------

Tesla really should take better care of it's delivery trucks. Thats two truck fires in two months!! Tesla is burning up hundreds of thousands of dollars of inventory just trying to truck the cars to the buyers.

Yeah, gotta agree with your assumption Plant, given Tesla's:

1). Penchant for having car battery packs that when they burn, THEY BURN.

2). Tesla being evasive to outright lying on ANY news which may reflect badly on Tesla. (Given it's Musk at the helm, I suspect I know where that comes from).

3). From the photo, the truck looking unscathed by fire and the Tesla's more or less all burned to a crisp -- how the fire magically does that (if it was from the truck brakes) would be, ahem, some kind of miraculous event, IMO.

...

FWIW, inflammable and flammable both mean they burn easily. From my brief research, brake fluid is inflammable, but only at quite high temps. From my research, my experience, and common sense (given what happens to heavily used brake pads re heating) brake pads aren't inflammable, even when the brakes are melting in places.
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