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Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 2 (merged)

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby Plantagenet » Tue 04 Jun 2019, 15:44:01

Its not just Tesla....other EVs and PHEVs are also spontaneously exploding into flames

teslas-isnt-only-electric-car-catching-fire

There seems to be some kind of problem with the battery packs on EVs that can lead to spontaneous combustion. Sometimes it happens when the car is charging, but sometimes it happens when the car is just parked there doing nothing.

Image
BLAM! WHOOSH! SIZZZLE SIZZLE!

Cheers!
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Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby asg70 » Tue 04 Jun 2019, 23:55:01

Plantagenet wrote:Its not just Tesla....other EVs and PHEVs are also spontaneously exploding into flames


The article only mentions Chinese brands, which doesn't surprise me, considering their shoddy quality record. It's Tesla that should be better.

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-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
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Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 05 Jun 2019, 17:29:28

asg70 wrote:only .... Chinese brands, which doesn't surprise me, considering their shoddy quality record.


Please do some research before posting such nonsense.

Runaway thermal incidents (i.e. fires) have occurred in many kinds of EVs and PHEVs---not just those built in China. These thermal runaway incidents are clearly related to the lithium-ion batteries which all EVs use. Some of the brands involved to date in runaway thermal incidents include the "Tesla (all models), Zotye M300 EV, Chevrolet Volt, Fisker Karma, Dodge Ram 1500 Plug-in Hybrid, Toyota Prius Plug-in Hybrid, Mitsubishi i-MiEV and Outlander P-HEV."

I looked specifically to see if there had been any runaway thermal incidents yet with the Hyundai Kona Electric model which you just bought and there is good news and bad news. The good news is that there haven't been any runaway thermal incidents yet. The bad news is that the Hyundai Kona model has just been released and runaway thermal incidents seem to occur in EVs after a few years of use. For instance, the Tesla Model X that just melted in Belgium was in its second year of use.......things were great in year one but then BZZZZTTTT BLAM! WHOOSH! SIZZLE SIZZLE SIZZLE!

Cheers!
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Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby kublikhan » Wed 05 Jun 2019, 20:51:06

About 174,000 vehicle fires were reported in the United States in 2015, the most recent year for which statistics are available from the National Fire Protection Association. Virtually all of those fires involved gasoline powered cars. That works out to about one every three minutes.

Tesla claims that gasoline powered cars are about 11 times more likely to catch fire than a Tesla. It says the best comparison is fires per 1 billion miles driven. It says the 300,000 Teslas on the road have been driven a total of 7.5 billion miles, and about 40 fires have been reported. That works out to five fires for every billion miles traveled, compared to a rate of 55 fires per billion miles traveled in gasoline cars.
Are electric cars more likely to catch fire?

500 Gasoline Fires A Day
According to a recent FEMA report, “from 2014 to 2016 an estimated 171,500 highway vehicle fires occurred in the United States, resulting in an annual average of 345 deaths; 1,300 injuries; and $1.1 billion in property loss. These highway vehicle fires accounted for 13 percent of fires responded to by fire departments across the nation.”

The report adds, “Approximately one in eight fires responded to by fire departments across the nation is a highway vehicle fire. This does not include the tens of thousands of fire department responses to highway vehicle accident sites.”

In May, three people were killed when a gas station in Virginia exploded. In February, two cars were destroyed when a gas station in North Carolina burst into flames.

The point is, the vehicles we use to get from Point A to Point B all rely on large amounts of stored energy, whether it is in liquid form like gasoline or in the form of electrons stored in batteries. We think nothing of it until something goes wrong.

The news media likes to focus on the dangers of electric cars while ignoring that there are more than 500 fuel fires in vehicles in America every day.

All new technology is scary. But the risk of fire while driving a fossil fueled car is much greater than it is with an electric car. We need to take a breath and calm down about battery fires. Yes, they do happen and, yes, they are frightening. But they are relatively rare, despite what the news media would have us believe. Drive on electrons and be happy. When it comes to fires, you are safer in an electric car than in a conventional car.
500 Gas Car Fires Per Day — Can We Please Get Serious About Electric Car Battery Fires?
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Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby asg70 » Wed 05 Jun 2019, 22:59:57

Plantagenet wrote:The good news is that there haven't been any runaway thermal incidents yet. The bad news is that the Hyundai Kona model has just been released and runaway thermal incidents seem to occur in EVs after a few years of use.


Classic generic BEV fearmongering from the master of the form. Right up there with the EM radiation fearmongering.

I know your modus operandi. I know when you are in knee-jerk FUD mode and that's what you're doing and it has ZERO VALUE in this forum. Zero.

I was willing to pile onto Tesla because I no longer have any faith in their quality control, but don't paint all EV manufacturers with the same broad brush.

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-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
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Re: Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Thu 06 Jun 2019, 00:31:30

This is silly. I have seen three cars combust in 60+ years, all ICE vehicles. I have seen no EVs combust. Not that that anecdotal tidbit is any more meaningfull than the prior discussion.

EVs either are safer, the same as, or more dangerous than ICE vehicles. Just as diesel vehicles are definately (after decades of experience with millions of gasoline and diesel fuelled vehicles) safer than gasoline vehicles. All three vehicle types burn so infrequently that one should not devote any time worrying about such an occurrence. Gasoline is such a convenient and useful fuel that it overcomes the extra hazards associated with it, including the greater chance of fire compared to diesel fuel.

Move on, there is nothing to see here. These are not the 'droids we are looking for.
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Re: Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby Plantagenet » Thu 06 Jun 2019, 00:54:50

KaiserJeep wrote:EVs either are safer, the same as, or more dangerous than ICE vehicles.


Exactly right.

KaiserJeep wrote: All three vehicle types burn so infrequently that one should not devote any time worrying about such an occurrence.....


There is one important difference between fire in an ICE vehicle and fire in an EV vehicle that makes this subject worth pursuing. When an ICE vehicle catches on fire it is because something went wrong.....usually there is a fuel leak somewhere and the leaked fuel caught on fire. However, when an EV catches on fire no one seems to have a clue about what went wrong. A very expensive EV can spontaneously combust while plugged in for a charge, even though nothing apparently was broken or wrong. That is called a DESIGN FLAW.

Perfectly functioning and undamaged vehicles shouldn't spontaneously combust....but EVs do.

And in terms of the frequency of EV runaway thermal incidents (i.e. fires) , its still too soon to make a judgment. There aren't many EVs on the road and most of those are quite new. The EV industry is conducting an experiment right now to see how the battery systems in these cars perform as they age, with their customers as unwitting product testers.

florida-man-dies-after-his-tesla-model-s-caught-fire-2019

Cheers!
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Re: Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Thu 06 Jun 2019, 02:36:04

Look, I'm an EE. Lithium, lithium-Ion, lithium polymer, etc. etc. batteries all suffer from "dendrite growth". Dendrites are crystals that slowly grow as a lithium cell ages, until they bridge from one electrode to the other and form a short circuit. The whole idea is to develope cell designs and cell chemistries and manufacturing methods that slow dendrite growth and thus extend the life of the cell. Some shorted cells actually vaporize the dendrite itself and are still usable afterwards.

Tesla's are designed for cells to fail, that is why the battery is comprised of series/parallel connected cells. A failed cell will render the good cells in the same series circuit unusable. The vehicle will "phone home" and be scheduled for service. It should still be drivable with reduced range and the removed battery can be repaired by swapping out the bad cell(s).

Sometimes they fail in unanticipated ways, beyond the ability of the battery to tolerate. But those vehicle combustion events that garner such media attention are rare. When is the last time the media bothered to report for example, a Mercedes (same price range as a Tesla) that suffered an engine fire from a cracked fuel rail? There are dozens every year for every model, and thousands of gasoline vehicles are lost annually to fires. The NTSB collects statistical data and if one vehicle model stands out, they will require a recall/repair.

The system is not perfect. When Ford Motor Co appealled to Ronald Reagan and said that they would go bankrupt if he forced them to do a recall/repair after 200 defect-caused casualties, he responded with an executive order that removed the NTSB power to force a mandatory recall, and another 1000 Americans died.

Tesla is nowhere near the stats to require a mandatory recall/repair. Lithium cells are overall much safer than high pressure fuel injection systems, and they ARE counting every fire and flaw.
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Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 06 Jun 2019, 05:28:50

I don’t know that the comparison between ICE and BE. statistics is useful. I believe a lot of ICE vehicle fires are due to battery problems. I’ve seen a few fires, more than one was in the front corner of the vehicle with no apparent accident.

But also our cars are anything but fire proof. If fires were truly a problem (and maybe they are) then much more would be done to reduce the fire risk. Public transit has fairly high standards for fire resistance, likely aviation as well. That we don’t have those standards in personal vehicles says a lot about or risk tolerance when it comes to luxury.
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Re: Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Thu 06 Jun 2019, 08:12:12

Daimler-Chrysler Corporation actually recalled my 2001 Jeep Grand Cherokee and my 2003 Jeep Wrangler for an engine fire problem (they had similar 4.0L straight six engines). The problem was that there was a cavity on top of the engine that could accumulate combustible materials (leaves and twigs) thrown up by the front tires when the Jeeps were driven at speed on unpaved roads or trails. The heat from the exhaust manifold could cause this material to burn and the small fire could damage the high pressure fuel injection rail and the fuel pump would literally pour gasoline onto the small fire and make a bigger fire. Chrysler quite responsibly did a voluntary recall before the NTSB threshold for an involuntary recall was reached, and fixed the problem by mounting a small heat shield that prevented the debris accumulation.

That is one reason why I remain a Jeep customer: they did not wait until they were forced to make repairs. Tesla had an early Model S problem where fires were being caused by running over rocks and metal debris at speed on highways that damaged the low-slung battery on the bottom of the car. There was one early Tesla fire caused by running over a piece of bent concrete rebar, well publicised in the media. They redesigned the Model S battery to make it more puncture resistant, and recalled existing vehicles and added an armor plate to the vulnerable area. Those are both examples of responsible manufacturer defect repairs from Chrysler and Tesla.

People may not be comfortable with such product safety decisions, which is why they typically don't get publicised. There are dozens of vehicle recalls per year for safety-related problems. That is why manufacturers and insurance companies employ mathematic majors as "actuaries" that collect and analyse statistics on product defects. They advise the companies when there is a potential safety issue and what the estimated cost of recall/repair/replacement might be. They are trading off such expenses against the cost of litigation from victims of the defects, which are also quite predictable. Then a carefully reasoned decision is made about trading off corporate profits and human lives.

You are kinda sorry I pointed that out, perhaps?
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Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby AdamB » Thu 06 Jun 2019, 10:22:13

kublikhan wrote:
About 174,000 vehicle fires were reported in the United States in 2015, the most recent year for which statistics are available from the National Fire Protection Association. Virtually all of those fires involved gasoline powered cars. That works out to about one every three minutes.

Tesla claims that gasoline powered cars are about 11 times more likely to catch fire than a Tesla. It says the best comparison is fires per 1 billion miles driven. It says the 300,000 Teslas on the road have been driven a total of 7.5 billion miles, and about 40 fires have been reported. That works out to five fires for every billion miles traveled, compared to a rate of 55 fires per billion miles traveled in gasoline cars.
Are electric cars more likely to catch fire?

500 Gasoline Fires A Day
According to a recent FEMA report, “from 2014 to 2016 an estimated 171,500 highway vehicle fires occurred in the United States, resulting in an annual average of 345 deaths; 1,300 injuries; and $1.1 billion in property loss. These highway vehicle fires accounted for 13 percent of fires responded to by fire departments across the nation.”

The report adds, “Approximately one in eight fires responded to by fire departments across the nation is a highway vehicle fire. This does not include the tens of thousands of fire department responses to highway vehicle accident sites.”

In May, three people were killed when a gas station in Virginia exploded. In February, two cars were destroyed when a gas station in North Carolina burst into flames.

The point is, the vehicles we use to get from Point A to Point B all rely on large amounts of stored energy, whether it is in liquid form like gasoline or in the form of electrons stored in batteries. We think nothing of it until something goes wrong.

The news media likes to focus on the dangers of electric cars while ignoring that there are more than 500 fuel fires in vehicles in America every day.

All new technology is scary. But the risk of fire while driving a fossil fueled car is much greater than it is with an electric car. We need to take a breath and calm down about battery fires. Yes, they do happen and, yes, they are frightening. But they are relatively rare, despite what the news media would have us believe. Drive on electrons and be happy. When it comes to fires, you are safer in an electric car than in a conventional car.
500 Gas Car Fires Per Day — Can We Please Get Serious About Electric Car Battery Fires?


Planty really missed his research on this one. I wonder why the obvious bias against EVs?
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Re: Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby AdamB » Thu 06 Jun 2019, 10:29:40

Plantagenet wrote:There is one important difference between fire in an ICE vehicle and fire in an EV vehicle that makes this subject worth pursuing. When an ICE vehicle catches on fire it is because something went wrong.....usually there is a fuel leak somewhere and the leaked fuel caught on fire. However, when an EV catches on fire no one seems to have a clue about what went wrong. A very expensive EV can spontaneously combust while plugged in for a charge, even though nothing apparently was broken or wrong. That is called a DESIGN FLAW.


Kaiser has you covered in the post after this one Planty.

But it is becoming obvious, why the bias against EVs? Certainly it has nothing to do with your experience with owning or driving one, certainly it can't be about incidents of fire as Kublikhan demonstrated. You might just be trolling again by being willfully ignorant of the information presented, but it looks more like a natural bias than trolling folks who understand that EVs have their place and those of us own them are quite happy, and making direct comparisons between our EVs and prior ICE powered vehicle experience.

So why all the hate for something you can't even be bothered to test drive?
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Re: Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby asg70 » Thu 06 Jun 2019, 13:03:54

Two reasons for his attitudes:

1) Him being a Republican
2) Him living in the petro-state of Alaska. (Suckles as he does at the teat of oil wealth, he can't be seen endorsing anything that would make oil lose its value.)

Of course, none of that jives with his so-called concern for the climate, but we know that's phoney anyway.

HALL OF SHAME:
-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
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Re: Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby Plantagenet » Thu 06 Jun 2019, 13:49:46

KaiserJeep wrote:Look, I'm an EE. Lithium, lithium-Ion, lithium polymer, etc. etc. batteries all suffer from "dendrite growth". Dendrites are crystals that slowly grow as a lithium cell ages, until they bridge from one electrode to the other and form a short circuit. The whole idea is to develope cell designs and cell chemistries and manufacturing methods that slow dendrite growth and thus extend the life of the cell. Some shorted cells actually vaporize the dendrite itself and are still usable afterwards.

Tesla's are designed for cells to fail, that is why the battery is comprised of series/parallel connected cells. A failed cell will render the good cells in the same series circuit unusable. The vehicle will "phone home" and be scheduled for service. It should still be drivable with reduced range and the removed battery can be repaired by swapping out the bad cell(s).

Sometimes they fail in unanticipated ways, beyond the ability of the battery to tolerate.


And then they spontaneously combust.

And thats my point.

We understand why fires occur in ICE vehicles but we don't understand the causes of fires in EV battery systems.

EV vehicles have a design flaw and we don't know what it is.

IMHO its not reasonable to ask EV designers to correct this dangerous design flaw in EVs.

AND if the CPB or NHTSA or other regulators won't do it, then eventually the courts will do it.

tesla-is-sued-for-a-passenger-death-due-to-a-defective-battery

In the US companies who sell defective products get sued, and TESLA is getting sued right now for placing defective battery systems on their EVs.

Once a lawsuit is successful against a corporation who is putting out a defective product, then it establishes a precedent and more and more lawsuits inevitably follow. Eventually either the corporation who is putting Americans at risk is driven out of business or they modify their product to correct the defect. IMHO EV manufacturers are going to have to figure out how to fix their defective product designs or they will find themselves in severe legal jeopardy.

CHEERS!
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Re: Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby asg70 » Thu 06 Jun 2019, 14:13:43

Plantagenet wrote:EV vehicles have a design flaw and we don't know what it is.


The design flaw is the COBALT in lithium cobalt batteries. This is a necessary evil for the sake of energy density. I know some attempts have been made to switch to other chemistries like LiFePO4 (which is popular in the hobby circuit) but I'm not sure if any of them are in mass-produced cars.

Tesla's original secret sauce was leveraging off-the-shelf laptop cells for the Roadster. They protected against thermal runaway through the creation of the first battery thermal management system, something that wasn't there in most competitors until recently. Each cell supposedly has its own individual fuse so that one cell failure doesn't create a cascade.

But my point is that everyone is in the same boat. As long as lithium cobalt batteries are being used, thermal runaway will be theoretically possible, just as gas fires will always be possible in gas fires due to the flammability of gasoline or gas explosions with natural gas service to the home. This is the assumed risk people accept for the sake of modern conveniences. All we expect is that all possible measures be used to minimize the risk, but it will never be 0%. We don't know yet whether Tesla did everything they could on the safety front, but given their shoddy QC reputation, I have my doubts.

You want to keep researching, be my guest.

https://www.mpoweruk.com/lithium_failures.htm

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Re: Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby Tanada » Thu 06 Jun 2019, 15:06:11

Nothing in life is risk free and pretending that everything should be risk free is just an excuse for not doing anything.
I should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, write, balance accounts, build a wall, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, pitch manure, program a computer, cook, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
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Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby Plantagenet » Thu 06 Jun 2019, 18:45:38

Accidents happen all the time. Huge amounts of engineering effort go into reducing the likelihood of accidents.

But its quite another matter when a product spontaneously self combusts and blows up.....while parked.

Thats not an accident....thats a design flaw.

Rather then pretending its perfectly OK for Teslas and other EVs to spontaneously self-combust, a more rational approach would be to evaluate the actual risk this design flaw introduces, i.e. how often do EVs and PHEVs self combust and does this likelihood change through time as the battery system ages.

Lets look at the numbers here....

Tesla itself estimates there have been about 40 Tesla fires in the 300,000 Teslas on the road. That means roughly about 0.013% of all Tesla vehicles have been involved in fires. This seems like a really low number, and Tesla and EV backers use numbers like this to say that the fire rate in Teslas and other EVs is the same or lower then in ICE vehicles.

But there is a difference......the Tesla fires are almost all catastrophic. The entire interior of the vehicle is usually destroyed, and anyone in the car dies. Once an EV fire starts its very difficult to put out......often the EV fires are so intense they destroy other cars around them, and EV manufacturers have produced special instructions for firefighters on how to handle the EV fires. EVs have also been known to re-ignite hours or even days after the fire was supposedly put out. In contrast many ICE fires are small events, and they can be stopped simply by turning off the engine as soon as smoke starts coming out of the engine compartment. This stops the fuel leak.....and the fire.

So the comparison between EV fires and ICE car fires isn't as simple as counting up the numbers of fires.....because EV fires are caused by runaway thermal instabilities in the battery system they are almost always catastrophic and fatal for anyone in the car whereas ICE car fires often are small and not catastrophic.

Cheers!
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Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby AdamB » Thu 06 Jun 2019, 19:12:29

Plantagenet wrote:So the comparison between EV fires and ICE car fires isn't as simple as counting up the numbers of fires.....because EV fires are caused by runaway thermal instabilities in the battery system they are almost always catastrophic and fatal for anyone in the car whereas ICE car fires often are small and not catastrophic.

Cheers!


And the number of people who have been incinerated inside their Tesla when it spontaneously combusted? There must be like hundreds, what with hundreds of thousands of Tesla drivers roaming around in their cars and then this instant incineration theory of yours kicks in and kills them. Apparently your theory is Tesla owners aren't smart enough to get out of their cars when this happens?
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Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby Plantagenet » Thu 06 Jun 2019, 19:54:31

Fund Manager says Elon Musk is a Charleton!

Fund Manager says TESLA will be forced to declare bankruptcy and then will restructure!

elon-musk-charlatan-fund-manager-slams-tesla-cnbc-says-company-will-have-to-restructure

Cheers!
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Re: THE Tesla Thread Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby GHung » Thu 06 Jun 2019, 20:15:58

Planty has yet to show me where Teslas, or EVs in general, have a higher rate of fires than ICE cars in the metric that matters: number of vehicle fires per miles driven. Indeed, everything I've seen to date indicates that Teslas catch fire at a much lower rate than ICE vehicles.

""A battery powered vehicle having a fire incident is newsworthy. A gasoline powered vehicle having a fire is newsworthy only if it stops traffic," said Steven Risser, senior research leader at Battelle, a nonprofit research and development firm, and one of the leading experts on the risk of fires in electric vehicles.

Are electric cars more likely to catch fire?
https://money.cnn.com/2018/05/17/news/c ... index.html

"The propensity and severity of fires and explosions from ... lithium ion battery systems are anticipated to be somewhat comparable to or perhaps slightly less than those for gasoline or diesel vehicular fuels," according to the results of an in-depth investigation into the relative fire risks of the two types of vehicles conducted by Battelle for the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration last fall.

About 174,000 vehicle fires were reported in the United States in 2015, the most recent year for which statistics are available from the National Fire Protection Association. Virtually all of those fires involved gasoline powered cars. That works out to about one every three minutes.

Tesla claims that gasoline powered cars are about 11 times more likely to catch fire than a Tesla. It says the best comparison is fires per 1 billion miles driven. It says the 300,000 Teslas on the road have been driven a total of 7.5 billion miles, and about 40 fires have been reported. That works out to five fires for every billion miles traveled, compared to a rate of 55 fires per billion miles traveled in gasoline cars. ..........


But please show me some reliable statistics proving that Teslas have more fires than your basic ICE vehicles, eh Plant? Number of fires per billion vehicle miles traveled will do nicely.
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