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THE Alternative Energy (general) Thread pt 3(merged)

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: Reality Check: 2014 Renewable Energy Recap

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sat 16 May 2015, 05:13:36

kiwichick, I appreciate your interest in the topic. However, Carnegie Wave Energy is a "pilot" status project. They are using government grant money and seeking investors, but have yet to build a commercial scale power plant. In this they are like many other startups. When they produce and sell a unit that has 100+ MW capacity, they will really be in business. (The CETO-6 unit they "project" in 2016 is 3 MW, all present online wave generator units are below 1 MW.)
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Re: Reality Check: 2014 Renewable Energy Recap

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sat 16 May 2015, 16:37:45

As noted before the huge build out of wind power in Texas was based upon a commercial business model and not done to "save the world from climate change". That included our consumers chipping in $7 billion to upgrade the electrical grid. And years ago the folks in Austin voted to pay a higher rate initially to get investors to invest. And now they have some of the cheapest electricity. As result Texas has twice the wind power of the #2 and #3 states combined. And globally we come very close to matching Germany for 4th place.
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Re: Reality Check: 2014 Renewable Energy Recap

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Mon 18 May 2015, 02:52:58

ROCKMAN, when is Texas abandoning oil and going 100% renewables?
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Re: Reality Check: 2014 Renewable Energy Recap

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Mon 18 May 2015, 07:01:05

KJ - "...when is Texas abandoning oil and going 100% renewables?” Never...at least voluntarily. And it wouldn’t be abandoning oil but phasing out our huge reserve of coal (lignite). The state/consumer support of wind has nothing to do with moving away from fossil fuels. Which is why it’s been so successful here compared to the rest of the country: it’s been done to SUPPLIMENT fossil fuels for our rapidly growing thirst for electrical power. I’m not teasing: for all practical purposes NO ONE in Texas gives a crap about the global climate. Our wind expansion has been done on a sound business model…not environmental protection motivation. The closest we’ve come to that is the largest CO2 sequestration project in the world currently under construction in Texas. And that’s not some much to “save the environment” but to avoid the battle with the feds over the GHG production from our FUTURE lignite burning.

Despite having more wind power then the #2 and #3 states combined Texas hasn’t eliminated 1 Btu of fossil fuel sourced energy. It has just been done to avoid building more ff burning power plants. Texas is one of the leaders in global alt energy because our politicians/citizens see that it makes good business sense. And they are thus willing to pony up the money to pay for it. And that includes $7 billion of tax payer money to expand our electrical transmission grid. All of which is unlike most other Americans who aren’t willing to do it to “save the planet”.

As always: it ain’t personal…just good business. LOL.
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Re: Reality Check: 2014 Renewable Energy Recap

Unread postby kiwichick » Tue 19 May 2015, 04:50:54

@ kj

re Carnegie Wave

they are not "seeking investors"

they are debt free

CETO 6 is on track to produce at approximately 4 times the output of CETO 5

CETO 6 is commercially competitive

they estimate they can provide Australia with 30 % of it's electricity demand using less than 20 % of the wave power resource off Australia's coastline

they are producing both zero emission electricity and desalinated water
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Re: Reality Check: 2014 Renewable Energy Recap

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Tue 19 May 2015, 05:45:16

OK, I am NOT seeing that on the Web. What is the actual output of the largest wave generator? Note that this is different than the rated output.

For example my solar panels are rated for 2.8kW, but the sun does not shine 24X7, they on average produce 15% of the rated maximum, averaged over a year. Wind energy in ideal locations sometimes achieves 20% of rated output on average. That is the problem with renewables, to be frank - they only operate at a fraction of rated capacity.

So the question is, what is the output of the largest wave generator, averaged over say a year? You see: we don't have baseline data for wave energy. Hydropower in California sometimes achieves 100% of rated capacity for months on end - then after experiencing the 5 year drought we are in, abruptly go to zero output.

(Hint) If they won't tell you that, they are being deceptive. They are gathering other people's money to spend.
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Re: Reality Check: 2014 Renewable Energy Recap

Unread postby kiwichick » Tue 19 May 2015, 20:23:25

@ kj

why don't you look at their website or look them up on the ASX site

their ASX code is CWE
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Re: Reality Check: 2014 Renewable Energy Recap

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Tue 19 May 2015, 21:48:27

OK, after a careful perusal of everything I can find, I conclude:

1) Much discussion of the CETO 3 wave generators with 80 kW rated output, but no statements about actual power generated. None of the CETO 3's remain in service.

2) Goal for 2015 is three CETO 5 units of 240 kW rated capacity, and a pilot program to sell power to HMAS Stirling on Garden Island. There is an announcement that these units came online in 2014, date uncertain. They are supplying 5% of the power used by the base and approximately 1/3 of the fresh water. This installation is still being described as a "pilot test". The article from the Herald Sun (Melbourne) states that the three units are producing power at the computer-modelled rate of 40 kW, but unfortunately does not say whether the 40 kW figure is a total or is produced by each of the three 240 kW wave generators. If I assume the optimistic "per unit", then this technology produces power at 16.7% of the rated capacity, which sounds correct and is right in line with other renewables (solar PV and wind turbines).

3) CETO 5 Unit #1 was removed from service May 20 and is being overhauled after 4000 hrs of operation. Cumulatively the three units together have 8500 hours total operation. This is an alarmingly short life, even for a pilot unit.

4) The CETO 6 which is under design and going online in 2017/2018 has a 1 MW rated capacity. Actual output is of course site-dependant, but even if actual output is successfully boosted from 16.7% to 20% (which seems unlikely) then the actual output will be around 200 kW. Commercial size fossil fuel or nuclear power plants are typically in the range of 400 MW to 2000 MW, and wind turbines of 4.5 MW can be bought off-the-shelf.

5) I have already given some of my money to Cape Wind, an offshore wind turbine farm near Cape Cod, MA. The wind technology is proven and mature in comparison to CETO units, but I am resigned to no payback on my investment for at least another decade. My personal estimate of the viability of CETO is that it has at best a 50% chance of success and it will be three decades before any possible payback. Therefore I'm not giving them any of my money, as I don't expect to live that long.

Thanks for your inputs. I wish your lead had "panned out", as I know of dozens of renewable investments just as speculative as Carnegie Wave Energy. But saying they are "commercially competitive" is a real stretch, when you compare the CETO units to large FF or nuke plants. At best CETO may be competitive with today's 4.5 MW wind turbines in 30 years - but there could be 100 MW wind turbines by then, and wind could easily be competitive with fossil fuels and nukes by that time.
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Re: Reality Check: 2014 Renewable Energy Recap

Unread postby Tanada » Tue 19 May 2015, 22:04:27

KaiserJeep if you have not read about this already you might find it interesting.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/powering-th ... ver-power/

The newest model boasts a 16-foot diameter rotor that spins at 40 revolutions per minute; when the current is at its peak, the company says a single turbine can generate enough power for 20 to 30 homes. It isn't always at its peak, of course: The flow in the river switches four times each day, and when the river isn't moving, neither are the turbines.

But the relative regularity of the tides is a selling point for hydro-power. "Water power, especially tidal power that we have here, has the benefit over wind of being totally predictable," said Corren. "I can tell you ten years from now on a Tuesday afternoon how much power we're going to be able to provide. And that's very useful for the people who run our electric grid to be able to count on that years down the road." Verdant's turbines actually switch direction with the current, rotating so that they can generate maximum power no matter which direction the river is flowing.


Image

Whoops hit submit instead of preview.

Tidal Power in the East River in New York City
These free flow turbines can also be used to harness tidal currents, as was shown with the Roosevelt Island Tidal Energy Project (pdf) in New York City's East River. There, Verdant Power has installed its 5-meter, 35-kilowatt models. The first 6-turbine array is already working, and when completed (100-300 turbines), the project should generated 10 megawatts of power, enough for 8,000 homes.

The Future of Free Flow Hydropower Turbines
It's probably still too early to know how cost-competitive this technology will be. What we do know is that there won't be a clean energy silver bullet, so it is important to keep improving in that area even if other types of renewable energies are ahead right now (wind, solar, and even wave power). Best of luck to Verdant Power!


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Re: Reality Check: 2014 Renewable Energy Recap

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Wed 20 May 2015, 06:38:15

KJ - "...and wind could easily be competitive with fossil fuels and nukes by that time." Wind is already competitive with ff in Texas thanks to govt and consumer support. And another big reason: we aren't stuck with the NYMBYism that cape Wind has to deal with. Consider the return on your investment had those turbines been installed much cheaper onshore.
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Re: Reality Check: 2014 Renewable Energy Recap

Unread postby kiwichick » Wed 20 May 2015, 13:39:01

@ kj

1 ceto 3 were trial units , as were ceto 4

2 be very careful about anything written in the Sun newspaper . It is one of Murdoch's trash rags

3 the first ceto 5 unit is being checked for faults or damage as any pilot system would be

4 fossil fuel or nuclear are a) uncompetitive when you remove the $10 million per day subsidy and b) are not zero GHG emission.
Wind turbines are only effective in areas where there is high annual wind run; like large areas of New Zealand.

5 I doubt that Carnegie will be worried about your lack of investment in them.

hope you have a long life
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Re: THE Alternative Energy (general) Thread pt 3(merged)

Unread postby WildRose » Sat 13 Jun 2015, 16:11:47

Check out what Ontario, Canada has been able to achieve. They are the leader in renewable energy in Canada. Note the graph showing the level of GHG emissions decrease they'll achieve by 2020, whereas Alberta will have a huge increase (due to tar sands). In fact, Canada's increase will be due to Alberta's tar sands industry. Ontario has installed 2,356 megawatts of solar PV and is also the leader in wind energy in Canada. The article states the cost of electricity (to Ontarians) has increased slightly.

http://www.greenenergyfutures.ca/episod ... gy-success

Below, article about investing in solar bonds:

http://www.greenenergyfutures.ca/episod ... lar-energy

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"Renewables"...a shell game for Outsourcing Energy?

Unread postby StarvingLion » Tue 16 Jun 2015, 01:30:50

http://theenergycollective.com/roman-ki ... y-security

Cover up the insolvency with a one time barrage of "renewables"..and then go full bore with financialization.

But what a great scam the Energiewende is. Put up a bunch of visible "clean" windmills that can't power a toaster so the domestic dolts think they are clean and secure and then shut down the heavy lifting base load power sources such as coal and nuclear and outsource it from multiple "partners" of the "union". When one of the "partners" gets out of line with complaints about growing costs, what can they do...they don't have control of their own currency. If they default and leave the "union", they find themselves open to sanctions.

So the "important" industrialists refuse to pay anything for electricity so they can be internationally competitive. And certainly the "free" marketeers in frankfurt won't pay a dime and in fact apply a hidden surcharge through the energy exchanges.

This is what Rockhead calls capitalism. But this crap is catching on even with the slowest dullard. The local bankrupt butcher just demanded to be subsidized by my town. In fact, every single small business is going under. Its total chaos.

And the suckers are getting very angry:

http://theenergycollective.com/stevenac ... -practical
--------------------------------------

"Millenial generation here. The robberbarons of the babyboomers took 99.99% of global wealth. Sorry but there's nothing left for us and we're growing increasingly bitter from a decade of absolutely no wage growth. Not to mention we're 1 trillion dollars in student loan debt and we are still being told "go to school, it will work out".

Yeah, it's not working out. We know the political system is broken, what can be done when SUPERPACS run rampant and monetary wealth is directly proportionate to voting power?

Unfortantely your generation is going to go down as xxxxing everything up so badly the US probably won't be a superpower for much longer. Republican based economics shifted wealth so disproportionately in 25 years, it is almost unthinkable to even look at."

-----------------------------

We're only 10 years from the final plug being pulled...and that is Intel Corporation blowing up to smithereens. The chinese are only 10 years behind in that semiconductor stuff. And then, ITS OVER. Free money printing press no more...

Now carry on...with your delusions of technology solutions to the energy problem...but remember....after the greatest money printing dump in history....

There can be no technology solution except Drexlarian Nanotechnology...hahaha.
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Re: "Renewables"...a shell game for Outsourcing Energy?

Unread postby Ulenspiegel » Tue 16 Jun 2015, 03:55:34

The author is an idiot and very likely people who cite him, too:

Today Germany imports around 75% of her primary energy demand, a lot from interesting countries.

If Germany is able to replace this with electricity (Energiewende), and 25% of the electrcity is mainly imported from Norway, Sweden, Netherlands et.al., then this is a huge improvement. To claim that there is an outsourcing is stupid propaganda.

BTW when countries like Netherlands and Austria depend to a high degree on German net exports, is this a gain or loss for Germany?
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Re: "Renewables"...a shell game for Outsourcing Energy?

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Tue 16 Jun 2015, 06:45:19

U - I wasn't going to waste my time responding but since you've contributed I'll add on:

"Put up a bunch of visible "clean" windmills that can't power a toaster..."

Texas Wind Generation: in 2014, wind energy provided 9.00% of all in-state electricity production. Equivalent number of homes powered by wind: 3.6 million. And it also saved many from suffering from severe cold last year when the polar vortex knocked out a good bit of NG-fired generation: March 26 saw a new wind power record.. This represented close to 29% of the nearly 36,000 MW of electricity on the power grid at that moment. And 9% is a sh*tload of power: Texas produces more e- then any other state (50% more then #2 CA). It produces 10% of the total electricity of the entire country. Needless too say it powers a tad more then the average toaster. LOL.

As I mentioned before Lion has an ax to grind against someone. That's OK: it's what sites like this are meant to provide. But IMHO Lion should pick his targets more carefully to avoid looking foolish.
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Re: "Renewables"...a shell game for Outsourcing Energy?

Unread postby GHung » Tue 16 Jun 2015, 08:03:26

Funny, that article. The Energy Collective is primarily funded by Shell and Siemens Energy (producer of wind turbines). Maybe they're attempting to bolster their claim that; "TheEnergyCollective.com is an independent, moderated forum of the world's best commentary & analysis on energy policy, climate change, energy technologies and fuels, and energy innovation." http://theenergycollective.com/about Robert Rapier posts there, BTW.

Anyway, as Rock points out, wind power energizes a shitload of toasters and other things. Kodiak, AK, an independent grid, has replaced diesel-sourced electricity with wind. Coupled with hydro power, they now produce nearly 100% (99.3%, IIRC) of their electricity with so-called renewables (wind/hydro). A friend of mine who is a city engineer there says most of the diesel they use is now mainly to exercise their diesel generators, "just in case". The program has been so successful they are adding more wind generation with storage. Their energy mix can be seen here: http://www.kodiakelectric.com/generation.html

KEA operates an isolated grid system. The main power source comes from three hydroelectric turbine generators at Terror Lake. KEA also operates four independent diesel generation facilities (Kodiak Generating Station, Nyman Power Plant, Swampy Acres Plant and Port Lions) which are a mixture of diesel reciprocating engines and a diesel-fired combined cycle generation unit. KEA added 4.5 MW of wind power in July 2009 with the completion of Phase I of the Pillar Mountain Wind Project. Due to the great success of this project, KEA moved forward with Pillar Mountain Phase II in the fall of 2012. Phase II included an additional 4.5 MW of wind power and a 3 MW energy storage system.

Statistics as of April 27, 2015
Generation 2014 year-to-date 2015 year-to-date
Source MWH % MWH %
Pillar Mountain Wind 9,765 16.9% 11,629 20.1%
Terror Lake Hydro 47,754 82.7% 45,865 79.6%
Diesel Generation 248 0.4% 145 0.3%
Total 57,767 100% 57,639 100%

Terror Lake
Maximum water level: 1,420 feet
Minimum water level: 1,280 feet
Water level on April 27: 1,406 feet

Pillar Mountain Wind Farm
Net kWhs generated from July 2009 thru this April: 109,115,977
Estimated gallons of diesel saved: 7,684,224
Generation Source *Generation Cost
Pillar Mountain Wind 11 cents per kWh
Terror Lake Hydroelectric 6.8 cents per kWh
**Diesel Generation 28.90 cents per kWh
* Costs reflect generation expense only.
**Based on diesel fuel cost of $3.50/ gal.
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Re: "Renewables"...a shell game for Outsourcing Energy?

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Tue 16 Jun 2015, 08:47:09

Ghung - Interesting. But it leads to a very important question: do they really eat that much toast in Kodiak? I though they survived on caribou burgers alone.

Hey...we might as well have some fun with such comments from Lion.
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Re: "Renewables"...a shell game for Outsourcing Energy?

Unread postby eugene » Tue 16 Jun 2015, 09:33:44

Reading comments sections, it becomes very obvious I am reading the "comfortably well off" with little reality based concept of the situation. Lots of "figuring this or that" but when one looks at the whole picture, it's a different story. Looks great until the big picture is examined. Appears to me the real story is "feels great". Industrialized world is bankrupt, climate change is coming on at an ever increasing rate and we're talking about decades to develop this or that miracle solution that will save our sorry ass and, most of all, allow us to sail happily into the sunset. Course we don't know if the miracle solution is even really feasible but we're at the discussion phase here so anything is possible. Way underneath all the rhetoric is "sailing happily into the future" motivation.

Meantime, millions are already on the extinction road as are you but just a bit farther back. Watched a documentary on the Titanic last night and a comment was particularly appropriate. Third class was drowning and first class was still discussing whether sinking was a reality. Whether commenters realize it or not, the industrialized world is head and shoulders first class.

I'm bitching about replacing my truck's brake lines when billions can only dream of a truck and would think a well, let along running water, would be wonderful.
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Renewable energy from evaporating water

Unread postby vox_mundi » Tue 16 Jun 2015, 10:49:16

Renewable energy from evaporating water (w/ Video)

In the June 16 online issue of Nature Communications, Columbia University scientists report the development of two novel devices that derive power directly from evaporation - a floating, piston-driven engine that generates electricity causing a light to flash, and a rotary engine that drives a miniature car.

When evaporation energy is scaled up, the researchers predict, it could one day produce electricity from giant floating power generators that sit on bays or reservoirs, or from huge rotating machines akin to wind turbines that sit above water, said Ozgur Sahin, Ph.D., an associate professor of biological sciences and physics at Columbia University and the paper's lead author.

"Evaporation is a fundamental force of nature," Sahin said. "It's everywhere, and it's more powerful than other forces like wind and waves."

Image

Questionable scalability
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Re: Renewable energy from evaporating water

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Tue 16 Jun 2015, 11:13:09

Evaporation is not a 'force"...it is a phase change from liquid to gas. And that typically requires an energy input...such as heat from the sun. So essentially the plan is to harvest solar energy by using it to evaporate water and then presumably capture some of the energy from the movement of that phased changed substance and converting that kinetic energy into electrical energy. Just MHO but doesn't sound very efficient compared directly converting sunlight into electricity especially since there will be a loss due to the mechanical operation of such a system. Not that I think of it sounds like a like a low temp "steam turbine".

But hell: if it generates grant money from the feds it makes perfect sense to me. LOL.
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