[theluckycountry]

The upper classes will need to be serviced so there will be plenty of vax just not too much

Most people of course see this as a mad conspiracy theory, their the same people who believed the official 9/11 story, Believe WMD was the reason for the invasion for the middle east. There is no hope for such people.

Population control has been openly talked about at the highest levels, Bill Gates references about it come to mind but he's only one. The evidence out about the vaccines is pretty strong now, the nRMA ones break down the bodies immune system and leave the recipient a prey to all manner of disease, if it doesn't kill them outright from myocarditis. I personally know of two men that died from this after being vaccinated, many more who are sick all the time now. Weird medical issues that have the doctors dumbfounded.

There is a link between mRNA Covid-19 vaccines and an increased risk of myocarditis and pericarditis.

British Heart Foundation https://www.bhf.org.uk/informationsuppo ... be-worried

The British have always been more open about medical matters, the American CDC for it's part is completely controlled by the pharmaceuticals so there is no hope of any truth in their pronouncements. So yes, a vastly reduced population in the big consuming nations would be a good start as far as degrowth is concerned. The other options thrashed out on these threads over the years were just wishful thinking. Everyone one agreed that riding bicycles and growing your own veggies is the solution, but not for them personally. A classic NIMBY response.

[theluckycountry]

Go back to beginning of this thread and you'll find all sorts of arguments about firearms and herbs and predictions of the end of days. People struggling basically to come up with a degrowth scenario where 'their' lifestyle goes forward. But none of us are going to see that are we, we are going to see what we see, get what we get. Ours is an industrialized society and what that basically means is harnessing non-human/animal energy in mass to build stuff. Even a simple hand crank well pump, how could you possibly make that without a vast system of supply and manufacturing. You may make one, at GREAT cost, in a 1600's blacksmith shop, but then five years later you'd strip a gear and be back to square one.

We can't go back 120 years to simple lighting, to simple cast well pumps, because the entire infrastructure that built that is gone. We would have to rebuild it all from scratch, modern factories dependent of computers don't work without the huge electricity inputs, oil inputs. We can't go back to simpler industrialization for the planet and we can't go forward because of lack of energy. All we can do is collapse, (for most of us) back to a system of existence where they stripped all the forests from europe, back before coal was exploited to replace them.

The great hope and the great con job of the 21st century has been renewable energy. Energy BUILT in modern factories. It was sold as a perpetual motion machine, it really was. But it's proven to be an energy sink. It's proven not to be renewable, like an apple tree, but only re-buildable. As the second and third world has been losing ground, getting poorer, using less, that share has been diverted to these grand projects of solar wind and EV, while at the same time we were maintaining the roads and factories and their outputs of cars and refrigerators for the 1st world. So zero de-growth on the big scale, but lots of de-growth in small nations like Ceylon and Venezuela and South Africa etc. People loosing access to their cars, to their fertilizer, to their fossil-food even. That's the de-growth I see.

And it's a genuine pattern that's forming all across the globe, even in the supposedly rich West we see it, lots and lots of people falling into poverty and losing access to modern medical care, decent food, roofs over their heads and certainly cars. Again, this is the only de-growth I see. It's like a pasture in drought where everything is slowly dying. It's why I ignore great and grand schemes for planned de-growth because they all rely on our industrial fossil fuel system and are therefore doomed. The brightest minds in business can't say this because it will effect sales and share prices, similarly for the great minds of academia, they would lose the grants they get for trying to find solutions to the unsolvable. The men that first exposed Peakoil were retired geologists. They made sure their pensions were secure before they blew the whistle.

It's like the Billions spent over the decades looking for a cure for cancer. There wasn't any to be found, and in the end they just stopped talking about a "Cure" and started talking about prevention and treatment. But the Cancer foundations are all still active, raking in the dollars so the Fatcats and the Lab-coats can continue enjoying modern industrial lifestyles.

Donate to help fund cancer prevention research. $50 $100 $250 $500 Says the popup on cancer.org "A meaningful way to honour a loved one" they plead. Cancer rates just keep going up and up so why would I give them two bob? A waste of money, might as well donate to a crack addict. At least the crack addict wont contribute to peak hour traffic or competition for a table in your favorite restaurant. I mean really! It's logical, it makes sense because that's all we really care about isn't it. Our personal comfort, our own personal pleasures, our personal access to the fruits of the industrial society. There are no Mother Teresa's on this forum. A few Mahatma Gandhi's perhaps.




He slept naked with these young girls, to "test" his resolve. HaHaHa

[theluckycountry]

If you want to plan for the future degrowth, for your children's sake, then there is probably no better course of action than buying a decent small farm in a temperate well watered region. Collapse your own consumption now and leave them something viable for their future. The problem is in the US your inheritance is taxed, so your kids are probably screwed! It might vary from state to state, my state has no inheritance taxes. Texas perhaps?

If you want to plan for degrowth for your own sake and you are over 40 say, then a home in a rural town in a food producing area is probably best. You can set yourself up to live comfortably in retirement and still have access to abundant food if things get that bad. Cities as we see are turning into hellscapes in many western nations. What will they be like when things really turn south? Go read up on the UK, it's a nightmare if you're a white englishman trying to live peacefully. The only bright spots there are rural towns but owning land there is not cheap.

A lot of people over there have moved to Panama et el because it's cheap and the lifestyle is good. But the "system" is still functioning there, what happens if it stops functioning? What happens if it turns into an economy like SAfrica. How will the locals treat these ex-pats when they are hungry and desperate? I think this would probably be the worst time in history to move away from your native land, from the people you have something in common with.

[AdamB]

If you want to plan for the future degrowth, for your children's sake, then there is probably no better course of action than buying a decent small farm in a temperate well watered region. Collapse your own consumption now and leave them something viable for their future.

Yes...this is called the old peak oil standard "I need a good excuse to sell the wife on the idea of buying a hunting/fishing cabin" stunt (selling the Amish lifestyle wasn't near as interesting except among the normal "back to earth" types). Quite common during the peak oil scare of 20 years ago, although it usually included ideas on homemade claymores and plenty of firearms to defend ones freehold from the MZBs and millions of city dwellers fleeing the cities.

Amusing to see how something as simple as stock market and financial ups and downs can lead to the same solutions among run of the mill doomers.

[theluckycountry]

Sri Lanka (Ceylon) has been in the news lately, never a very stable developing nation, none the less it has had a decent standard of living over all. Last year the government made the decision to bail-in the nation's pensions to help run things and pay back some debt. These bail-ins have occurred in other nations but it's typically savings accounts, now it's the retirement accounts. It sets a nasty precedent but one I assumed would happen all along because anyone with a retirement fund is 'wealthy' compared to the real down and outs. To maintain political stability you can't have a lot of people starving beside people who are well fed. So you balance it out.

This is of course is all part of the degrowth schema, so to speak. Fantasies of pushbikes and urban gardens live in the minds of urban Vegans but the rest of us don't believe in these utopian dreams. Degrowth from an oil-fueled over consumptive frenzy will not be pretty, mainly because no one want to give up anything, even the urban Vegans. They don't want to give up their Almond Milk, boutique fruits and all the other expensive produce they need to circumvent the loss of conventional protein in their diets. In terms of fertilizers and transport costs I'd wager their diet is more damaging to the climate then the cattle and dairy they rail against! Typical hypocrites, but what can you expect from religious fanatics! Yes that's what they are, plain and simple. They follow an Eastern Religion

Pure vegetarianism or veganism is Indic in origin and is still practiced in India by some adherents of Dharmic religions such as Jainism and in the case of Hinduism

But back to Sri Lanka

Retirement Funds Fuels Economy

Amid steps to counter the spiralling crisis and in the name of IMF led debt restructuring, the government in June 2023 announced using domestic financial assets namely retirement funds.

It decided that the burden of reducing GDP’s debt-serving requirement by 0.5% should be borne by funds that include the Employees Provident Fund (EPF) and the Employees Trust Fund (ETF), which are the only savings available to a majority of working people. Although this decision met vehement opposition by 82 trade unions.

As per a report, last year’s economic crisis led to the decline of real value of retirement funds by 40% and when they are chased in after a decade, the real value is set to dip further. And it will devastate the working class people of the country who are now grappling with multidimensional vulnerabilities. In fact, EPF and ETF together make 14% of Sri Lanka’s financial assets.

https://www.networkideas.org/news-analy ... ent-funds/

So, whose next? I would suggest the western world will implement similar strategies, but like Sri Lanka it won't be on a sunny day when the birds are singing" It will be in the midst of an economic crisis. The US has $36 Trillion in federal debt and a hell of a lot of state and personal debt too! It can't be repayed, it can be defaulted on though. And in the process everyone takes a big hit to their retirement and bank accounts and we all take a Giant step into the realm of degrowth. Degrowth simply implies buying less, using less, correct? What better way than to destroy the value of the currency and personal savings.

[yellowcanoe]

If you want to plan for the future degrowth, for your children's sake, then there is probably no better course of action than buying a decent small farm in a temperate well watered region. Collapse your own consumption now and leave them something viable for their future.

Yes...this is called the old peak oil standard "I need a good excuse to sell the wife on the idea of buying a hunting/fishing cabin" stunt (selling the Amish lifestyle wasn't near as interesting except among the normal "back to earth" types). Quite common during the peak oil scare of 20 years ago, although it usually included ideas on homemade claymores and plenty of firearms to defend ones freehold from the MZBs and millions of city dwellers fleeing the cities.

We got a small piece of what at one time was a waterfront farm on a large, beautiful lake by luck rather than planning. Cottage properties typically start at half a million Canadian dollars in our area which was well out of our price range. By luck I happened to search the realtor site when this property came up listed for $199,000. We bought it sight unseen considering that the property itself should have been worth more than this. Not surprisingly, the cabin was in pretty deteriorated state as it had been abandoned for at least 5 years. It's taken a lot of work to fix up the place and I've really improved my carpentry skills. We are now working on constructing a 1500 square foot cottage with three bedrooms so we can better accommodate family (we have 4 children from our first marriages and six grandchildren). My wife who used to question my desire to have a cabin is now determined to spend as much time there as possible when she isn't keeping care of our severely autistic grandchild. She'll get up before dawn to see the vibrant colours before sunrise -- in June that means setting the alarm for 5:20am.

One of the people from next door does cottage maintenance for cottagers on the lake who quite often live quite far away. Some of his clients are Americans including one family from Montana. Montana is a beautiful state and it seems pretty amazing that anyone would drive from there every summer to spend time at a cottage in Ontario.

[theluckycountry]

We are now working on constructing a 1500 square foot cottage with three bedrooms so we can better accommodate family

I doubt you'll regret the move if you make it permanent. Just being away from the city traffic is worth it I recon but there is so much more, as you alluded to. In holiday season a stream of campers and boaties pass through town here, heading for the lakes that back up to the mountains. I wonder why they don't spend their days off in the city, since they are such great places.

Keep us updated on the project. Sounds idyllic.

[Newfie]

Lucky,

You are still missing the point of the thread.

As si.ple as I can make it...

The current economic model is based on growth, which is u sustainable. Likewise our culture is based on growth.

What does a culture based on ZERO GROWTH look like? ZG meaning being sustainable forever. Not Zero Advancement.

How does culture change to meet that requirement?

[Newfie]

Yellow,

We drive from Philadelphia to spend summers in Newfoundland.

But Newfoundland has never been self sufficient, it always required significant trade to exist here. Now the fish are gone and the land still won't grow sufficient cereals.

We have a nice property in Cape Breton, but it is not farmland.

Besides the kids are all addicted to the current model. They will struggle mightily to sdapt to any significant changes.

I don't see si.ply reverting to a 1800's world as a solution. First we can't and second that world had all the same cultural problems we now have, which lead us here. We need a new cultural model, low resource, likely cooperative vs competitive. But no idea what that loos like, how it works.

[ralfy]

It's difficult for a world population that's used to industrialization to de-industrialize, even though the latter is inevitable given the current economic model. Given that, degrowth won't be a model to follow but will take place by force. And since the same world can't imagine any other economic model as most of the population has not yet achieved middle class status, then that global economy will face the causes of degrowth (a resource crunch plus environmental damage) and may lead to more conflict.

[theluckycountry]

Lucky,

You are still missing the point of the thread.

As si.ple as I can make it...
What does a culture based on ZERO GROWTH look like? ZG meaning being sustainable forever. Not Zero Advancement. How does culture change to meet that requirement?

You've missed the concept of the thread title newfie, DE-Growth does not embody the concept of "sustainable forever" Zero Growth as you want, it means the opposite of Growth, which is basically collapse. There is no standing still except in the movies. What the early peakoilers dreamed of was a gentle managed collapse. That's very nice to think about but it has no examples in history. In history De-Growth entails the collapse of all the cities and a return to primitive agricultural lifestyles.

We could discuss historical examples of this process and how we could tweak them, but why? It's all downhill anyway, slow or fast, and all we can say is that when we lose general access to Diesel the trucks stop, the electricity goes, etc etc. Go back and re-read the early posts on this thread and you'll see what I mean.

[theluckycountry]

I see degrowth all across the globe now, with some notable exceptions, like Israel which is essentially growing by eliminating the Gazarites so they have full ownership of all the offshore Gas there. But Britain is De-growing, as is Germany and France and many other euro nations. Spain and Greece are classic examples, NZ in my neck of the woods, basically any nation without access to cheap energy. The symptoms are invariably unaffordable HealthCare, or limited free HealthCare like in the UK. Being unable to afford housing and decent foods, reliable personal transport.

These were all areas that were growing over the last century, due to our oil slaves of course. More and more people had access to them, now it''s less and less. Unfortunately the systems we have built, like power generation and delivery rely on vast networks that in turn rely on vast revenues from the populace. When the revenues fall below a certain point these systems won't be able to function, they will either collapse or be broken into small elements supplying those that can pay. That will be be difficult with electricity since you'll still need the poles and transformers that run past all the homes that don't pay to feed the ones that can pay.

Car manufacturing, if you don't sell X number you might as well close the factory because it will be unaffordable to run. No cars out the door then. So it would be nice to scale back, but many systems don't allow for it, like the water grid, the sewage grid. They only survive because of property taxes. Detroit is a good example of De-growth, how's it going there?

Revisiting Detroit's bankruptcy: "It must never happen again"

City finances: Debts totaled $18 billion. The general fund deficit was $327 million. The bankruptcy wiped about $7 billion of those debts and brought other financial relief, like pausing city pension payments for a decade.

Why it matters: The culmination of a years long financial crisis forced Detroit to confront decades of decline that left it fundamentally dysfunctional, awash in debt and unable to provide basic services.

https://www.axios.com/local/detroit/202 ... higan-2013

Detroit is the De-growth model. Sure people left, Degrowth, but the city was unable to adjust, no doubt for the reasons I cited above. Thankfully The federal government came to rescue with 80 Billion for the carmakers but it wasn't enough to save the city. What other US cities are on the verge?

10 U.S. Cities on the Brink of Bankruptcy https://wealthynickel.com/10-major-u-s- ... ptcy-0424/

You ask why would people flee the cities? Imagine one where the street lights go out and water and electricity are rationed. You're talking South Africa now. You don't believe it can happen? I can't see any way it won't. The US isn't Cuba, it won't pull together, not with all the diverse races that hate each other. Remember it's only White people who have been trained not to Hate. The other races hate each others guts and ours too

[mousepad]

Unfortunately the systems we have built, like power generation and delivery rely on vast networks that in turn rely on vast revenues from the populace. When the revenues fall below a certain point these systems won't be able to function, they will either collapse or be broken into small elements supplying those that can pay. That will be be difficult with electricity since you'll still need the poles and transformers that run past all the homes that don't pay to feed the ones that can pay.

I would argue that this is not the case in the West. The West deals with the situation you describe by slowly embracing communism and vilifying capitalisms. Tax the rich, etc, to subsidize the basic needs of the masses. And once there's no juice to squeeze from the rich, the whole thing will come crashing down.

[theluckycountry]

I would argue that this is not the case in the West. The West deals with the situation you describe by slowly embracing communism and vilifying capitalisms. Tax the rich, etc, to subsidize the basic needs of the masses. And once there's no juice to squeeze from the rich, the whole thing will come crashing down.

As good an analysis as I've heard so far. It's why I believe the private pensions are doomed, even after a market collapse they will have trillions in them and that can be stolen by the government to fund subsidies, illegal immigrants, single mothers and anyone else demanding a handout.

[theluckycountry]

What is catabolic vs anabolic?
Anabolism is the building of complex molecules from numerous simple ones. Think of protein synthesis. Catabolism is the breakdown of complex molecules into numerous simple ones. Think the break down of glucose. The first takes energy, the second releases energy.

Now take these two terms and apply them to our civilization. In the Anabolic phase we are taking raw materials and applying abundant energy to convert them into complex systems, like vehicles, electricity networks. In the Catabolic phase these systems collapse and are looted for the low entropy materials, scrap metal, copper wiring. Roman roads were left in place, probably because they were too hard to cannibalize, but many Roman buildings and walls were dismantled to build simpler structures on the household level.

When copper is looted from half built homes and old cars are converted into chicken coops and rabbit hutches, this is an example of catabolic collapse. We probably haven't reached the stage yet where the copper is fashioned into household pots but that might be one use? The trouble is most of our civilization's achievements have short life-spans. Concrete, which makes up most of our buildings bridges dams etc begins to crumple after 80 or 100 years and is useless. The same applies to anything made out of modern rubber and plastics. Without a fossil fuel economy to keep rebuilding all this, it all goes the way of the dodo.

I challenge you to find two items on the desk in front of you that weren't made in a huge factory with the intensive application of fossil fuels. Start with your Smart Phone, your computer, your car fob, the minted coins and notes in your pocket, the paint on the walls around you. Even the pen and paper you see. The ink in your pen!

Ink can be a complex mixture, containing a variety of substances such as solvents, resins, alcohol, lubricants, carbon, pigments, dyes, aniline, dextrine, glycerine, fluorescents and other materials.