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Degrowth Thread Pt. 2

How to save energy through both societal and individual actions.

Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby theluckycountry » Tue 26 Mar 2024, 17:24:44

Smart wealthy people live in bubbles of prosperity I imagine, it would be hard for them to even contemplate an agrarian lifestyle, it goes against everything in their daily experience. Poverty on the street, homelessness? They would drive by behind tinted windows oblivious and if they had to walk past such a person they would turn their nose up in disgust. A classless society, anything but.
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Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby ralfy » Tue 26 Mar 2024, 21:15:33

Newfie wrote:
ralfy wrote:"If everyone lived in an ‘ecovillage’, the Earth would still be in trouble"

https://theconversation.com/if-everyone ... uble-43905


Ralphy,

Yes, a good article. Thank you for postingZ

Distressingly the very first sentence in that report is drastically wrong.

From a 10-15 year old interview with Rees Canadians consume about 8 acres of productivity, Americans about 10. Average is round about 1. At this AVERAGE we ares using 2-1/2 times Earths capability to replenish. Move that Average up to 8 and we would he using over 10 the replenishment capacity.

Now suppose we Americans, and all Western society, reduced our consumption to 1 acre, and the excess capacity/resources went to the below average, we would still be using 2-1/2 times replenishment capacity.

To hold our current population and to reduce consumption to below replenishment levels we have to live on less than 1/2 acre per person. Or cut American/Western consumption to 5% if current l usage.

Even if Rees/Walkenburg are wrong by a factor of 10 we would still have to reduce Western consumption by 50%.

Rees/Walkenburg due believe their model is wrong, in that it is too optimistic, making the matter even worse.

I have a friend, really bright lawyer. Named top lawyer in his populace state by the states lawyers association, he has argued a case before the Supreme Court. I have sat in a board with him and he has a very sharp analytical mind. He is a staunch liberal, strong Greenie. When I tried to explain this to him he absolutely COULD NOT believe it. It was many steps too far for him to accept that our situation was that dire. His reaction to my arguments was of disgust, as if I were telling him to literally eat shit. It is an abhorrent concept.

I believe in many ways he is of the same class, attitude, training, and culture as our ruling politicians. The necessary solutions are beyond their comprehension.

I have an even better example I will leave for latter.

I do not know how to deal with that.


I think the article refers to ecological footprint vs. biocapacity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... _footprint
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Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 27 Mar 2024, 12:12:12

The footprint is based on the bio capacity
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Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby ralfy » Wed 27 Mar 2024, 19:40:46

Footprint is based on economic activity, which is why it goes higher than biocapacity.
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Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby careinke » Thu 28 Mar 2024, 00:23:39

The data in the article above is way out of date. Sustainability is just hanging on until you are killed by a black swan. Maybe humans are responsible for everything, but it will certainly take humans to fix things. We need to embrace regenerative practices, and you can't do that without animals. Vegans hurt the cause. They steal food from animals and increase medical expenses.

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Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby theluckycountry » Thu 28 Mar 2024, 05:49:20

Sometimes I wonder if you joking, mad, or just from another planet inke
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Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby ralfy » Thu 28 Mar 2024, 19:54:47

Good grief.
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Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 29 Mar 2024, 16:08:37

careinke wrote:The data in the article above is way out of date. Sustainability is just hanging on until you are killed by a black swan. Maybe humans are responsible for everything, but it will certainly take humans to fix things. We need to embrace regenerative practices, and you can't do that without animals. Vegans hurt the cause. They steal food from animals and increase medical expenses.

Peace


Which article?

I’m f you are implying the situation is worse than presented I would agree.

But Danny Khanaman, (Nobel in Economics) who passed this week, would argue it is not within our makeup to provide the answer you seek. We are far too reactionary to provide the systemic guidance needed.

Ironically it is something amenable to AI, but we would have to surrender ourselves to its direction.



So would Rees and Wacknagel (spelling almost approximate)
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Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby careinke » Fri 29 Mar 2024, 22:06:12

Newfie wrote:
careinke wrote:The data in the article above is way out of date. Sustainability is just hanging on until you are killed by a black swan. Maybe humans are responsible for everything, but it will certainly take humans to fix things. We need to embrace regenerative practices, and you can't do that without animals. Vegans hurt the cause. They steal food from animals and increase medical expenses.

Peace


Which article?

I’m f you are implying the situation is worse than presented I would agree.

But Danny Khanaman, (Nobel in Economics) who passed this week, would argue it is not within our makeup to provide the answer you seek. We are far too reactionary to provide the systemic guidance needed.

Ironically it is something amenable to AI, but we would have to surrender ourselves to its direction.



So would Rees and Wacknagel (spelling almost approximate)


This article:
https://theconversation.com/if-everyone-lived-in-an-ecovillage-the-earth-would-still-be-in-trouble-43905

Actually, I am more hopeful. There are now better solutions through permaculture, AI, Crypto Currencies, etc. Plus, a lot more soil can be produced, giving us even more land. There are examples everywhere. Although it would be easier if we still had borders....

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Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 30 Mar 2024, 21:11:39

Yes,

My comments stand put of date and ignoring critical factors.

But you are an eternal optomist.

If I were as optimistic as you I would be convienced I could make you as pessimistic as I.
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Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby ralfy » Sat 30 Mar 2024, 21:43:05

careinke wrote:
Newfie wrote:
careinke wrote:The data in the article above is way out of date. Sustainability is just hanging on until you are killed by a black swan. Maybe humans are responsible for everything, but it will certainly take humans to fix things. We need to embrace regenerative practices, and you can't do that without animals. Vegans hurt the cause. They steal food from animals and increase medical expenses.

Peace


Which article?

I’m f you are implying the situation is worse than presented I would agree.

But Danny Khanaman, (Nobel in Economics) who passed this week, would argue it is not within our makeup to provide the answer you seek. We are far too reactionary to provide the systemic guidance needed.

Ironically it is something amenable to AI, but we would have to surrender ourselves to its direction.



So would Rees and Wacknagel (spelling almost approximate)


This article:
https://theconversation.com/if-everyone-lived-in-an-ecovillage-the-earth-would-still-be-in-trouble-43905

Actually, I am more hopeful. There are now better solutions through permaculture, AI, Crypto Currencies, etc. Plus, a lot more soil can be produced, giving us even more land. There are examples everywhere. Although it would be easier if we still had borders....

Peace


Those aren't solutions, especially crypto currencies.

Borders. Good grief.

I'll help you out:

Peak oil takes place because the earth is a limited biosphere and demand for oil keeps rising. What applies to oil also applies to minerals, etc., not to mention aquatic resources, arable soil, and so on.

The result is diminishing returns caused by gravity coupled with environmental damage. Given that, permaculture, etc., are part of degrowth, or activities needed to survive given resource shortages.

AI works if you have the opposite of degrowth, i.e., large amounts of electricity, oil, and minerals. The same applies to crypto currencies, which also lead to even more energy and material resources needed for financial gambling.

Finally, closing off borders doesn't reverse that result. Rather, it's the result of facing a predicament, as resource shortages lead to conflict over resources.
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Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby theluckycountry » Mon 01 Apr 2024, 20:56:38

ralfy wrote:Those aren't solutions, especially crypto currencies.

Borders. Good grief.


Biden Budget Shells Out $320 Million On Border Walls... For Oman, Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt, And Tunisia
Is there anything Joe Biden can't do?

Slipped into a $1.2 trillion budget signed by Biden last weekend is about $380 million for “enhanced border security” projects in Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Oman, and Tunisia — about $150 million of which must go to border security in Jordan.

Meanwhile, the budget puts strict limitations on the Department of Homeland Security’s (DHS) ability to construct physical barriers along the U.S.-Mexico border to deter illegal immigration.

“The Biden administration wants nothing more than the ability to ‘manage’ an invasion here at home, all while helping nations abroad build walls,” RJ Hauman with the National Immigration Center for Enforcement (NICE) told Breitbart News. “Make it make sense.”
https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/20 ... nisia.html

By the time he's out of office it won't matter, the damage will be done.


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Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby theluckycountry » Mon 01 Apr 2024, 21:01:46

Denver is a self-designated sanctuary city.
Denver Official Caught On Tape Begging Illegals To Leave The City
https://twitter.com/EndWokeness/status/ ... 5325917456

pathetic!
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Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 08 Apr 2024, 08:27:52

An article on China's population decline.

I have referred to this before, this is a more complete discussion of the situation and how the analysis was completed.

https://www.project-syndicate.org/comme ... an-2022-07
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Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby yellowcanoe » Mon 08 Apr 2024, 09:16:13

Newfie wrote:An article on China's population decline.

I have referred to this before, this is a more complete discussion of the situation and how the analysis was completed.

https://www.project-syndicate.org/comme ... an-2022-07


they also have people who want to leave for a better life elsewhere. A recent 60 minutes episode showed large numbers of Chinese crossing into the US from Mexico through a hole in the fence.
"new housing construction" is spelled h-a-b-i-t-a-t d-e-s-t-r-u-c-t-i-o-n.
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Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby theluckycountry » Mon 08 Apr 2024, 21:30:34

yellowcanoe wrote: A recent 60 minutes episode showed large numbers of Chinese crossing into the US from Mexico through a hole in the fence.


5th columnists?

It's been done in Australia, some Chinese were caught out seriously influencing the political process here a few years back. They had links to the CCP

There is not a few articles on the web about this and not all total paranoids either.

The entry of Chinese in the mix of people seeking entry to the U.S. is a new red flag for it is very difficult for Chinese to get authorization to leave China. It’s almost certain that the CCP has allowed and arranged for select Chinese to travel to Central America and Mexico with plans and maps for them to make their way up to and get over the southern border. And the purpose could be to establish a Chinese “Fifth Column” presence in the United States.

The CCP and its military have already been infiltrating Taiwan to act as “Fifth Column” units to undertake cyberattacks and place false information on social media and to undermine Taiwan’s state telecommunications infrastructure.
https://www.discovery.org/a/a-chinese-f ... ed-states/

But aside from that, Degrowth means reduced populations, more to go around, less pressure on housing, food, everything. This is what we want isn't it? But somehow the script has been flipped to say that's bad? I doubt Chinese factories and mines are going to close down for lack of workers any decade soon. And in 30 years if they want to reverse the trend, so be it. Just have the stores sell only mini-skirts and you're on your way.


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Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 09 Apr 2024, 18:08:54

yellowcanoe wrote:
Newfie wrote:An article on China's population decline.

I have referred to this before, this is a more complete discussion of the situation and how the analysis was completed.

https://www.project-syndicate.org/comme ... an-2022-07


they also have people who want to leave for a better life elsewhere. A recent 60 minutes episode showed large numbers of Chinese crossing into the US from Mexico through a hole in the fence.



IIRC they are spending $50-$60 thousand for the ride.
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Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby Tanada » Wed 10 Apr 2024, 07:55:25

Newfie wrote:
yellowcanoe wrote:
Newfie wrote:An article on China's population decline.

I have referred to this before, this is a more complete discussion of the situation and how the analysis was completed.

https://www.project-syndicate.org/comme ... an-2022-07


they also have people who want to leave for a better life elsewhere. A recent 60 minutes episode showed large numbers of Chinese crossing into the US from Mexico through a hole in the fence.



IIRC they are spending $50-$60 thousand for the ride.


TBH if I were an 18 year old man in China where males of marriageable age outnumber females by more than 2:1 I would jump at the chance to emigrate to a country where my odds of success were much better. Unlike the USA in the PRC the practice of marriage young is still the cultural standard, so to the excess male population this seems like the most valid option.
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To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
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Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby theluckycountry » Thu 11 Apr 2024, 06:06:38

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Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 12 Apr 2024, 09:14:01

Tanada,

I had not heard 2:1, that does not bode well for social stability.

And I agree, an lot of what we do as individuals comes down to our circumstances.

Makes you wonder about circumstances in other countries.

Good and bad. We spend a lot of time in Dominica. I knew it was poor but did not realize how poor. And the political system leaves much to be desired. Yet we find it a most delightful country and people.
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