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PeakOil is You

Degrowth Thread Pt. 2

How to save energy through both societal and individual actions.

Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby careinke » Thu 04 Jan 2024, 21:33:47

Lucky, I thought I could get a nice response out of you. 8)

Your comments were very useful. Thanks.

I've sort of gone into observer mode over the things I have no control over.

I am thankful we will always eat, have a place to live, and perpetual sources of energy. I am especially thankful for the historical opportunity to front run the Banks and Corporations in my accumulation of digital assets.

The fight stage is days from being completed....and then we win.

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Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby theluckycountry » Fri 05 Jan 2024, 07:30:33

I feel the same way inke, as my sig line testifies, I couldn't give a rats arse about the rest of the world, or the rest of Australia for that matter. It can all go to hell in a handbasket because that's what they have been working for. You want to take on half a million in debt in times of economic turmoil, well suck it up if you lose that house. You snooze you lose in this world.
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Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 05 Jan 2024, 11:20:45

Lucky,

I am a bit perplexed over your take on social obligations. When you say China can just pull back because they have no health care and retirement obligations your are somewhat correct. But it means the population will fell the full force of the pulling back, the people will suffer.

So it strikes me that when you say “China” you really mean the government, damn the people. Sorta takes the “social” out of “Socialisim.”

I kinda like the idea of a country where there is a web of support.

But, as always, none of us really have a clue about the future in any detail, we just all agree it looks kinds bleak, at best.
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Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby theluckycountry » Fri 05 Jan 2024, 14:55:22

Newfie wrote:Lucky,

I am a bit perplexed over your take on social obligations. ... when you say “China” you really mean the government, damn the people. Sorta takes the “social” out of “Socialisim.”

I kinda like the idea of a country where there is a web of support. But, as always, none of us really have a clue about the future in any detail, we just all agree it looks kinds bleak, at best.


Socialism is a 'word' like Love (to take a quote from the Matrix) It means whatever you want it to mean and to the rulers (government in this case) it means a system of control where they can live like kings at the expense of the little people, the human resources. We have to throw out the definitions we were and are being told newfie because it's all lies, and nations like China are as bad as any. There was a small, small, window of true democracy in the recent past, and true socialism too perhaps? It was facilitated by abundant oil and coal that elevated the working class and gave them access to technologies, basically, that improved their lives no end. The phenomena moved around the world like a wave, like industrial manufacturing has moved from country to country, but was not necessarily related to it.

And yes, when I talk about these things it's about the governments in control, the people are just so many ants and we don't concern ourselves with them, though we can pretend to care if we like. The TV and social media has trained people to pretend to care, to say they care, but deep in their hearts do they really give a shit about a few million starving Africans? Of course not. If they cared they would be sacrificing a good part of their own life to help them, like we do for our own children, them we care about.

As for the future of our modern societies, well that's really no mystery. Ours is going the way of all those before it, and as we can see the process is well under way in many nations. It's a trend, to go from well ordered democratic style nations with good roads and railways and abundant food and housing to ones where the rail links collapse, the roads turn to shit, the housing and food becomes expensive. Look at Venezuela, Brazil, Egypt, Indonesia, Many Eastern European nations.

Technology, or the loss of it to be more precise, that is what we are talking about newfie. The Colombian rail system was beautiful once, as were many. These networks allowed freedom for the poor to travel (cheaply) to transact or visit relatives, allowed food to move around cheaply. 'the small window of democracy' but without access to cheap resources these went away and the people were again back in poverty. The simple fact that you and I and inke are doing ok points to the time in history when our societies were in their democratic technological heyday. We were able to buy and invest for the future, but not many Millennials will be able to have what we have in 30 years will they. Look at the numbers of them still living at home, why? Why did we move out young? We did it because there were opportunities and everything was cheap of course. It was better living away from our parents, it always is, but only if you can afford a great lifestyle, only if rent is cheap and food is cheap and running a car is cheap.

For someone at our age newfie it's not necessary to understand any of this stuff, one can just go sit in front of the TV or potter in the garden, it won't make any difference to our lifestyles probably. But I surmise we are here together because we want to understand where our nations are heading, and for most of us, certainly me, the underlying motivation is because we don't want to be caught with our pants down as oil and copper and all else depletes. I buy old fans newfie, old appliances if I can get my hands on them. Why? Well the new juicers and blenders and fans might look nicer but I'm sick of replacing them every few years, I got sick of the noise from the cheap bearings. The old stuff from the peak of western civilization was made to last a lifetime, modern fans don't even have any copper in them in many cases, true. A month ago I bought another sport motorbike, but now an older one from 20110 because the state of the art one I bought a couple of years ago is problematic, a pain in the arse, and it's a good brand too. I'll make money on the transition selling privately and have a better riding experience as well. It's over newfie. It's all downhill form here.

Read this mate. This guy nails it. He links Big technology to autocracy and explains why democracy comes from simple technologies and why that little window occurred. It was a real eyeopener for me, connected many dots. I had always surmised that the abundance of the oil age caught the governing/ruling elites off guard. There was so much new wealth it spilled over to the working classes, just as the working class spilled over onto their ski slopes and golf courses and cluttered their bays with jet skis and little boats. Just imagine how you'd feel if a few hundred homeless started to set up camp abound your acreage, that's the analogy.

Now I'm off for a coffee and to watch the sunrise. Give your wife a cuddle mate, life is short :)

Life After Modern Technology
…and the power of saying no
https://thehonestsorcerer.medium.com/li ... 5687f360e9
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Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby theluckycountry » Fri 05 Jan 2024, 15:28:15

Excerpt from the link above

Thanks to the many energy slaves (first real humans, now machines powered by fossil fuels) the use of complex technologies became democratic the first time during human history. Everyone who worked hard enough could’ve bought a car and a house. Food was cheap and widely available. People had a similar access to goods and thus felt they deserve equal rights. This process gave rise to human rights movements, democracies and individual freedom. For a while at least things were allowed to go in a self-organizing manner.

Given the fact that both human nature and our resource use are driven by the maximum power principle, however, western civilization fell into the same old civilizational trap as its many predecessors, repeating the same old pattern all over again. It started with discovering a new resource (fertile land, coal, oil, uranium etc.) and mining it to exhaustion. Then it went on by pretending that depletion is not a problem at all, while kicking the can down the road ever more desperately.

As resources and energy started to stagnate (and soon decline) so will technology use become ever more limited to an ever smaller, ever more privileged elite class. Again. Since the maintenance of such technologies will still require massive hierarchies, democratic self organization will be no longer enough. First resource extraction then manufacturing will become more autocratic, then outright dictatorial. Say goodby to worker rights, adequate pay, and a social safety net. Those who have the keys to the grain store, the access to oil fields, lithium or copper deposits, or those who can decide which neighborhood gets electricity by flipping a switch, will have the power and control over the population. Just like any other time before.

Not that it could’ve happened any other way. Beyond a certain point every civilization becomes wholly unsustainable, due to the fact that they always use up an accumulated resource wealth much faster than it could regenerate. Our industrial capitalist civilization is no exception. Its history follows the same arc as all of its predecessors. And just like in ancient times instead of looking for an “exit strategy” by attempting to dismantle what is wholly unsustainable in an effort to soften the blow somewhat, we will get more fairy tales of how the next bout of prosperity is just around the corner, or how we just need to elect the right leader promising to bring back the ‘good old days’...
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Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby yellowcanoe » Sat 06 Jan 2024, 18:18:55

People seem to think that technology will save us. It's actually the other way around - technology has enabled us to use resources at an ever increasing rate and thus hasten the day when we hit a wall.
"new housing construction" is spelled h-a-b-i-t-a-t d-e-s-t-r-u-c-t-i-o-n.
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Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 06 Jan 2024, 20:37:03

Yellow,

Can’t say I follow how your post is connecting to mine BUT I do agree with much of what you say. A point of demonstration is we use a pressure kerosene stove for cooking, but even kero is becoming hard to come by. I had to buy JPA here in Antigua because they have no straight up kero.

I look at it like this; humanity has been crossing a swamp. We build stepping stones, or mats or rafts if you like, but we disregard the ones we have used, we let them rot or sink. Thus if we ever have to go BACK on this path, well we can not. We seek answers in technology because it is the only thing we have. At one time here there was a thread here about building wooden sailing vessels. That can never happen, we cut down the trees and it takes centuries for them to grow.

This is a big part of the degrowth dilemma, we can not imagine a non-growth centric future, perhaps because there is none, which will lead to a pretty poor outcome.
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Re: Degrowth Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby theluckycountry » Sun 07 Jan 2024, 02:31:48

yellowcanoe wrote:People seem to think that technology will save us. It's actually the other way around - technology has enabled us to use resources at an ever increasing rate and thus hasten the day when we hit a wall.


Really what it's done is simply give us a more cushy lifestyle, freed us from washing dishes by hand, from sweeping carpets with brooms and allowed us to do our shopping more easily. I love it, but it's obviously doing in the planet. No free ride.
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