Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

New War vs Old War - Abroad and Home

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

New War vs Old War - Abroad and Home

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 18 Jan 2023, 12:19:30

First some background on Old Wars’ versus ‘New Wars’

I thought this was an interesting way of thinking about the new world we are entering. I see lots of opportunity to view the world through this new lens.

I find it applicable to the Ukraine situation; what started as an Old War fought for land acquisition had turned into a New war where Putin hangs onto power by mediating the battles between the private military and the MoD.

But is is also applicable to the USA. The R/D conflict exists not to solve any issues but rather the conflict generates cash required for the political oligarchs to stay in power. Neither side wants to "win", that would destroy their money/influence generating machine.


https://wp.nyu.edu/schoolofprofessional ... -old-wars/

The book is predicated on the concepts of ‘old’ and ‘new’ wars and the nuanced differentiation between them.

‘Old wars’ refer to traditional inter-state warfare where militaries are focused on territorial conquest. These wars were centralized and financed by the state machinery through taxation of the public. ‘Old wars’ took place across the nineteenth and twentieth century and were fought over nationalistic and ideological reasons respectively. The battle is the decisive element in wars with the state’s military forces as the main target of the warfare.

‘New wars’ refer to warfare conducted by varying combinations of state and non-state actors. These wars are decentralized and the non-state actors involved include armed forces, paramilitary forces, mercenaries, warlords and private security contractors. ‘New wars’ are fought in the name of identity politics and not in the name of ideology. Identity politics has arisen due to globalization, increased communication and migration between countries. These wars are financed partially by the state and other, illicit means, such as looting, kidnapping, smuggling, bribery and stealing. The violence is generally internal and targeted at civilians
User avatar
Newfie
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 17780
Joined: Thu 15 Nov 2007, 04:00:00
Location: Between Canada and Carribean

Re: New Waf vs Old War - Abroad and Home

Unread postby theluckycountry » Wed 18 Jan 2023, 16:40:49

Well the article is gone
Not found, error 404
The page you are looking for no longer exists.


Perhaps you can sort that out. But it's interesting to note that most of the wars since WWII ended in a win for capitalism, S-Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, all down the list we see mercantile regimes that have blended into the Western model. I knew a guy who'd spend 20 years in SE Asia, his base of operations was the Philippians where he built a home, though the land under it he couldn't buy because of their laws. He told me the whole nation is run by a handful of families that control everything from telecommunications to food to transport.

I see the same in my country, it's blatant in the US and elsewhere too. The war in Ukraine, well all we can be sure about is that it's not what the government mouthpieces claim it is, a fight for freedom. I would suspect it's a fight for control between the old Western corporation blocks and the emerging BRICS block. There is a lot of resources there that's for sure. That's why it drags on and on. Neither side wants to utterly destroy the place. It's like a game I think, like backgammon or chess where pieces are moved until someone wins the game.
theluckycountry
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 678
Joined: Tue 20 Jul 2021, 18:08:48
Location: Australia

Re: New Waf vs Old War - Abroad and Home

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 18 Jan 2023, 16:45:55

Link repaired. Thanks for the heads up.

Here it is again.


https://wp.nyu.edu/schoolofprofessional ... -old-wars/
User avatar
Newfie
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 17780
Joined: Thu 15 Nov 2007, 04:00:00
Location: Between Canada and Carribean

Re: New Waf vs Old War - Abroad and Home

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 18 Jan 2023, 17:01:51

Lucky,

Not arguing or disagreeing, but this concept is about a different kind of war.

Old wars are generally fought for some tangible gain; territory, trade route, strategic position, etc.

New wars are fought not to win but exist as their own end. They consume materials and the leaders skim of a percent of the consumption. Or they find a position of influence because there is some perceived enemy. IMHO the “war” need not be martial, but between any two groups.

A very simple example would be a sports franchise. In Philly there was a perceived running feud between the Philly Eagles team and the Cowboys from Dallas. The players didn’t hate one another; they were professionals getting paid to out on a show. The franchise managers benefited by stoking emotions, they increased public interest, sears cost more, they sold junk merchandise, sport casters blabbered endlessly but got paid. Lots of folks made money on a fake account engagement.

Take some of the endless wars in Africa. As long as the war goes on both sides get financing and support from there backers. War stops, money stops.

The “theory” is that the Ukraine War started as an Old war to take strategic territory. Now that can not be done, but pulling back and Putin is done for. Meantime Wagners are now battling the MoD for influence and position. As ling as Putin keeps the war going both Wagner and MoD are happy because they get to skim the money flow, and Putin now gets a new job of mediating between the two groups. And this will go on as long as the war does.
User avatar
Newfie
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 17780
Joined: Thu 15 Nov 2007, 04:00:00
Location: Between Canada and Carribean

Re: New Waf vs Old War - Abroad and Home

Unread postby theluckycountry » Wed 18 Jan 2023, 18:21:30

Yes I agree, unfortunately I didn't have the article to read from but the link is fine now and I've saved the page out for when I get back from my travels this morning. Every now and then I make a pilgrimage to the city to buy some stuff my rural town doesn't supply. Today is the day.

The war in Iraq wound down and profits with it, now the "New" war has seen those military-industrial profits surge once more. I see the Governments function today as a spruker and as an enabler for the largest corporation blocks. Pandemics, wars, Pharma, Military, profits must continue and hopefully exceed but the point will come when impoverished people can't afford the products. Like the overpriced medical products sold in the US. In many cases sold to people who don't even need them.
theluckycountry
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 678
Joined: Tue 20 Jul 2021, 18:08:48
Location: Australia

Re: New Waf vs Old War - Abroad and Home

Unread postby theluckycountry » Thu 19 Jan 2023, 03:27:23

Yes well I have read the Critique and it made a lot of sense to me, more so I must admit than the merits. From the short explanation provided I think you would have to "think" a lot to fathom what the author is saying, it's not a clear-cut explanation it seems to me, more a collection of drivers that can be used to explain conflicts of varying degrees and actions. From the "Gandhi" style takeover in Egypt to the Iraq War must be presented as the same sort of "new Wars" in the book. To me they are different but I'm no war expert by any shake of the stick.

If this makes no sense it's because the paper makes no sense to me, I can't explain it.
theluckycountry
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 678
Joined: Tue 20 Jul 2021, 18:08:48
Location: Australia

Re: New Waf vs Old War - Abroad and Home

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 19 Jan 2023, 10:05:57

The Review I linked was in 2 parts; a) BRIEF SUMMARY and b) CRITIQUE. So the Reviewer was offering his take on the subject book.

No doubt a lot of fuzzyness in the New War concept.

Yet there is something there in widening the definition of “war” to include these additional conflicts. The recognition that war can be a goal in its own right.

Some of my understanding come out of other discussion, and I can see how that perspective is not presented in the above review.

It helped me understand why the US political parties are where they are and why Putin is prosecuting the Ukraine war as he is.
User avatar
Newfie
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 17780
Joined: Thu 15 Nov 2007, 04:00:00
Location: Between Canada and Carribean

Re: New Waf vs Old War - Abroad and Home

Unread postby theluckycountry » Sat 21 Jan 2023, 06:57:19

Newfie wrote:
It helped me understand why the US political parties are where they are and why Putin is prosecuting the Ukraine war as he is.


It's beyond me, as I said, but there is obviously a civilizational divide between the two nations. The West, led by the US, is totally into Woke culture now, the old 20th century morals have been tossed in the bin but Russia still holds fast to many of these. Homosexuality is barely tolerated in Russia, in 2013 a law, outlawing the promotion of a gay lifestyle to minors was enacted. Compare that to the West where an adult male can go into a girl's change room and expose himself to young girls, as long as he says he "identifies as a woman".

I have listened to podcasts which claim the russian war in Ukraine is as much about keeping "western perversions" out as is it is about keeping NATO off it's border. And I agree with a lot of that, if that's what really behind it, because I am incensed by the perverse turn our culture has taken. I had a heterosexual family member taken advantage of by one of these degenerates simply because they were vunerable at the time and confused by all the gender politics forced down their throat. They are in a healthy heterosexual relationship now and quite happy, a state of mind they were NOT in when involved in the same sex relationship.

It's one thing to allow people to engage in same sex relationships without penalizing them through laws, it's quite another to teach children in second grade that this is quite normal and then go on to put ideas in their heads about how to engage in it. Personally I don't think this madness will last more than a generation. Already young adults are getting fed up with rainbow flags being waved in their faces. The percentage of people who chose a homosexual lifestyle was always small, yet believe the media and every second person you meet is a raving Queen or a Dike.

And of course this is only one aspect of the differences between the two cultures. But it's these types of differences that not only divide a nation internally, but divide one nation from another.
theluckycountry
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 678
Joined: Tue 20 Jul 2021, 18:08:48
Location: Australia

Re: New War vs Old War - Abroad and Home

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 21 Jan 2023, 08:41:28

Lucky,

You are striking close to the point. In any culture there is a wide rang of behavior and tolerance represented by the “silent majority.” Then there are the fringes, which scream for attention, and any fringe over represented can be stressful. Consider the inquisition and burning witches, and others, on the stake. The center is always afraid of the minority, but also has some compassion for difference, because we all feel a “different” or “special” at times.

What I am pointing to is how power groups can coalesce around the beleaguered groups and use their grievances to build a power base. Their poser rest in the continuance of these tensions, not in the peaceful resolution. You can see thin in the “forever wars”, and the US political party system.

I am hearing people suggest that Putin, having failed at his original goal, is now seeking to morph the Ukraine war into a “forever war” as it is the only way for him to retain power. That is why the Russian rhetoric is morphing from strategic defence to cultural and religious.
User avatar
Newfie
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 17780
Joined: Thu 15 Nov 2007, 04:00:00
Location: Between Canada and Carribean

Re: New War vs Old War - Abroad and Home

Unread postby theluckycountry » Sat 21 Jan 2023, 19:10:30

I must admit that down here in a quiet corner of Australia most of these progressions in state matters are Academic to me. I certainly see the concept of forever wars, the US has been at war for 80 years, they just move from one geographic location to another, finding another "Enemy" to keep their machine going. As part of the coalition of the willing our government tags along in a minimalist way. Our defense forces are quite small, I believe we have 5000 riflemen at last count, the rest are cooks and band members.

I can see what you talk about, power groups can coalesce around the beleaguered groups and use their grievances to build a power base and since nothing good comes of it for these minorities they are clearly being used and spat out so to speak. I tend not to think though that there is a grand plan behind all this, just a bunch of very wealthy men and women whose obsession is their wealth, their own little empires and their standing among their peers. Each one bribing politicians as they can to expand their influence. This concept takes a little getting used to but I believe Corporations really do rule the world now. They have wealth and the power far beyond elected officials.

I listened to an informative pod a while back about how the Walton family would send their minions to a town somewhere and negotiate a deal with the local politicians for a new Wallmart. This was the Local deal, not the federal employment subsidies often cited in the media. It was always the same deal and included low cost or free land to build on, no property taxes for 10 years, paid for access roads, sewage etc. Low cost funding and many other perks that would never be available to a small business. All under the banner of "Economic Development subsidies" Wallmart's costs were slashed and the promise in return was Jobs, Jobs, but I'm sure these politicians received gratuities, that's how the world works isn't it.
https://www.goodjobsfirst.org/wp-conten ... tstudy.pdf

So there is just one example of a family of Elites cutting their swath through the American pocket, building an empire by exploiting the population, the dumb masses, the ill-informed consumer. The people shopping there are contributing to their own impoverishment and that of their town but they blithely roll up to fill their carts with useless consumer goods and substandard food product. It's why I have no respect for the average person out there, they are part of the problem, they are mindless robots enabling the very enslavement of their lives.

[tinfoilhat]
All the people using pay-wave and credit cards and online banking think they are so smart but they are merely handing control of their finances over to faceless men in suits who will turn the tables on them one day and lock them down like chickens in a battery farm. It's so obvious but like frogs in a pot they eschew cash in favor of their lazy technologies and pave the way for a cashless society where one wrong word spoken could see your accounts frozen like during the truckers revolt up in Canada. That wasn't even legal but it was got away with, the big banks and the government working in unison to quash any decent. You're not a Jew? Well your safe, unless you're a Gypsy, or a Homosexual, or a political opponent, or a mental health patient...
/tinfoilhat

At this point the banks own the corporations and the corporations own the banks. They are all inter-owned, have stock in each other, scratch each others back. The cutthroat days of big capitalism are over, they are like the seven sisters now, the globe carved up and profits equally shared.
theluckycountry
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 678
Joined: Tue 20 Jul 2021, 18:08:48
Location: Australia

Re: New War vs Old War - Abroad and Home

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 22 Jan 2023, 08:25:33

Too much there I agree with.
User avatar
Newfie
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 17780
Joined: Thu 15 Nov 2007, 04:00:00
Location: Between Canada and Carribean

Re: New War vs Old War - Abroad and Home

Unread postby theluckycountry » Sun 22 Jan 2023, 19:19:27

It's certainly nice to know all this stuff, even though it's depressing. The only other option is to be ignorant, filling the shopping cart twice a week with garbage and voting in the hope your taxes are lowered, 'this time'

I must admit I am spending more time than usual researching, I'm retired and convalescing (needed the spell checker for that one) so I can't carry on with the usual pursuits of retirement at the moment. For 20 years nearly I have been researching how the world 'really' runs and changing my lifestyle in accordance to what I have discovered. I retired before 60, because I could, but most men I know, even the ones well funded, are still working well into their 60's. Most still live in the city too where the murders occur, where the traffic is dense, where the fines are garnered. All for lack of knowledge and resolve.

There is a reason why the Bush family has a secure ranch in Texas and big land holdings in South America, a reason why the mega rich own islands and buy estates in New Zealand and Australia. They have superior knowledge, they know what's coming. Well so do many of us here. Peak oil is just the entrance to the rabbit hole hey.
theluckycountry
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 678
Joined: Tue 20 Jul 2021, 18:08:48
Location: Australia

Re: New War vs Old War - Abroad and Home

Unread postby theluckycountry » Sun 22 Jan 2023, 23:15:35

This is what we have to deal with newfie https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hH3nsTqdAd8
A girl is tossed off a boat some idiot was trying to get through the haulover inlet and all she cares about is holding her phone up out of the water. Interestingly no one on any of the boats seem to wearing a life preserver? Standard for a bar crossing. I saw another vid where a girl gets arrested and all she want is for the cops to get her phone and give it to her. Eventually she's stuffed into the back of the cruiser, that was driven by a lone female cop and parked on a rail crossing. Then the train comes. It wasn't pretty.
theluckycountry
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 678
Joined: Tue 20 Jul 2021, 18:08:48
Location: Australia

Re: New War vs Old War - Abroad and Home

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 23 Jan 2023, 09:17:16

Haulover Inlet. What can I say? The nexus of stupid vanity. There are whole Youtube channels dedicated to that “all dick and boob no brain” extravaganza. It is actually not so bad to see in person, the tubers just concentrate the shit. Walk up the beach to the clothing optional section if you need to sober up quick.

Never heard about that other video.
User avatar
Newfie
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 17780
Joined: Thu 15 Nov 2007, 04:00:00
Location: Between Canada and Carribean

Re: New War vs Old War - Abroad and Home

Unread postby theluckycountry » Mon 23 Jan 2023, 22:14:30

Newfie wrote:
Never heard about that other video.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SW7qNcgy68&t=174s
theluckycountry
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 678
Joined: Tue 20 Jul 2021, 18:08:48
Location: Australia

Re: New War vs Old War - Abroad and Home

Unread postby AdamB » Tue 24 Jan 2023, 20:55:49

Newfie wrote:Too much there I agree with.


Which parts Newfie? The whacksdoodle part, or just the anti-semitic part?
What does a science denier look like?

Armageddon » Thu 09 Feb 2006, 10:47:28
whales are a perfect example as to why evolution is wrong. Nothing can evolve into something that enormous. There is no explanation for it getting that big. end of discussion
User avatar
AdamB
Volunteer
Volunteer
 
Posts: 8666
Joined: Mon 28 Dec 2015, 17:10:26


Return to Economics & Finance

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 20 guests